Have you ever fantasized or imagined yourself as the woman in a sexual scenario?

Seriously this is the ONLY fantasy I ever had since I kinda achieved full consciousness of my gender identity at 11 (maybe 10 or 12, memory is blurry).  I tried to have straight male fantasies, or gay male fantasies...did not work...I always just went back to thinking of myself as a girl.  Its weird, this is something that HAD affected me in relationships as well, with both men and women.  Could never get past a certain point...because everything felt wrong. When it finally did, everything felt nightmarish and even more wrong, and the fantasy was the only way to handle it.   Sorry I saw that and literally that is what went through my head.

Back to you softgentleone....
Nothing you are feeling is unique.  I suggest reading Julia Serano's Whipping Girl.  From what you are writing it seems like you would relate to quite a bit of what she has written.  I also strongly encourage you to read her blog switch hitter.  http://www.switchhitter.net/
Believe it or not reading her work was a revelation for me, not because I am necessarily a trans identified lesbian (my sexuality is literally a big question mark), but I was a feminist who was also trans grrl, and it resolved a long standing conflict, that really never should have been a conflict.



I found the Whipping Girl very useful in my transition so far (to note I had the book a couple months before it came out).  But it also reassured me, that being trans is not always like what you read as far as the traditional story line.  Sometimes it is confusion and its a bit different from the story you typically read.  Sometimes not everything is crystal clear.  Sometimes there are contradictions.   

We all struggle with confusion at one point in our life.  Gender identity issues do take time to sort out. 

Your sure brought up a popular topic here, S.
I spend years agonizing about the same sort of thing. Much reading and thinking on the subject has helped me come to terms. Here's my take:
Transsexuality is a condition that's pretty much defined by the time your 5. If you're an adult and your not sure you're a woman, you are almost certainly not a TS. What you are, however, may be more complex. Sexual orientation is another one of those things defined early, possibly with physiological basis. If women flip you switch, that's that. Gender ID is a separate thing. And though I've found little scholarly discussion of this, I have come to believe that there is nothing wrong with identifying with the feminine body image while still being happy with your male sexual equipment. I see no shame in this. It's just another of several ways to be gender diverse, which is what this board is all about. Welcome to the wonderful world of bigenderism. There's not stone tablet that says you have to be a man or a woman or a gay or a lesbian, or some other defined role per se. Some of us have to make up our own rules.

Lyric

Quote from: Lyric on June 10, 2007, 12:48:50 PM
If you're an adult and your not sure you're a woman, you are almost certainly not a TS.

While that's the case for many TS, I don't think it's set in stone or anything. Denial can be a powerful thing.

While the feeling of being different may emerge at 5, and the things that you do may or may not identify you as girl to an outside observer, I don't think that many vocalize, realize what their feelings are until later. By looking back, you can say to yourself, ha, that is what I was feeling; but, if you had that clarity then, I'm sure that you'd have been less messed up later (at least I would).

Pre-puberty, the demarcation between girls and boys used to be less severe than it is now where little boys try to be men before they're ten and girls of
10 dress like 16 year old girl used to dress 20 years ago.

I could do girl stuff, though geeky ones, and I hung out with girls all the time prior to their puberty.

Its only after that, when I group to 6 foot and they're attitude to men changed, that the importance of gender in social interactions increased, that I really started to feel like I wanted to follow those girls I used to be with, that's where I should be.

Before female puberty, the feeling was diffuse and had no much social or body image implications (I looked like a young girl, I'll try to find the photos).

But, after they changed and me slightly later, my place was set, and to my horror I realized that I'd been left behind!!! Its at that time that I started to have fantasies of actually change fate and just be a girl.

Fantasised about that every night for about 4 years until I grew so depressed about the futility and seeming delusional nature of those thought that I gave up on it around 17... But it came back with a vengeance 20 and did leave until now. I can live it now, no need to fantasize.

Perhaps my saying that transsexuality is defined at an early age was overlooking the gender ID fringe range. My point was that most people who are TS seem to be certain from fairly early on. Thus, if you are uncertain, you may fit some other category in the gender ID spectrum. I saw a seven year old interviewed by Barbra Walters the other day who had not the slightest uncertainty she was a girl in the body of a boy. It would seem to me that if you grew to adulthood without every having that kind of certainty about yourself that you may be more crossgendered than transgendered in nature. Still, anyone wishing to to go through the expense and physical risks of SRS is no borderliner. Perhaps there are strong, early recognition types of TS's-- possibly the result of some prenatal chemical condition-- and then there are those whose TS tendencies are less deep seated, not to fully be realized until later. Either way, I have great respect for what all of you go through.

Its not because you don't verbalize it that you don't have exactly the same thing as someone who does.

To say with clarity at 7, I'm a girl, it must matter in your life. For me, I was already a girl in action and looks before puberty (maybe a tomboyish one, I played with a tomboy GG close by); does a girl really need to affirm she's a girl? I didn't know any different. I was kinda of naive, didn't know the future implication of gender. I did the same things some girls did, with no thoughts that it would end some day.

Its when it ended at 12-13 that it suddenly hit me. Oh, I was a girl... And now, they're telling me I'm not!!!! I had nothing in common with the boys, how could I join them?

If I'd been born in 1994, at that moment, my parents could have gone to a gender specialist and my life would have been much different. As it is, it was 1980 and being a TS was so far off the radar screen I couldn't see it.

The young TS are lucky that information, support is there now; instead of torturing themselves for 20 years trying to be a man or girl. They can discover that their feelings are not because their insane; they're just girls trying to find themselves in this world.

Lyric, you are espousing one of the popular myths and outdated definitions of transsexuality.  That it happens at a very young age, and anytime it doesn't is not real transsexuality.  I will tell you right now the age of full gender consciousness does not make much of a difference whether or not somebody is a TS, this is why the age of onset of these feelings as far as evaluation was thrown out of the SoC.  Clinicians have a better understanding of this issue now.

Even under the older definitions of early onset, it was those who experienced feelings between the ages of 3 to early onset of puberty, often 11 or 12.  It was not by the age of 5.  Rather by age 11 or 12.  Many people in this category who do achieve it by this time, were not necessarily fully gender conscious when they were younger. Why? Because for many gender consciousness does not really happen until early puberty.  That is why many who say they feel like they should be a girl at age 5 or very early on, actually end up being gay men.  Just as many "primary" or "early onset" TS say they knew pretty much at the start of puberty, as those who knew at the age of 5.  The onset of puberty itself has more to do with gender consciousness than how you felt at a young age.   That is why the cutoff for early onset or primary used to be puberty.  Real gender consciousness often does not happen until then, and determining ones gender identity, or whether or not they are TS, before than can often be in futility.  Gender variant kids, are often not TS. 

The truth is though age of onset matters very little these days for any experienced therapist.  They will admit though, that it is how it sustains itself in puberty can be a determinant for some.  Many of those people who identify as female at a young age, end up being gay, not TS after puberty hits.  While many TS do not achieve gender consciousness until puberty (it is an often response that they really were not sure before hand, and they always felt different by those who onset was at the start of puberty).  Puberty, ends up being more of a key to TS in earlier onset, because that is when one becomes fully conscious of ones identity and where the gender identity and TS tend to cement.  Thats why if you read the definitions of early onset it is often between early childhood and early puberty.  It is once you get beyond early puberty that you are in the realm of late onset or secondary TS.  However, even the primary and secondary definitions and age of onset has been scrapped. 

By saying one is "not really TS" if they did not know by age five is discounting many peoples experiences, and not rightfully so.  It is also going against even the old clinical definitions of early onset, which is determined by those feelings at or before the onset of puberty.  It is placing things in a very narrow definition, that has hurt more TS than helped.  I find it to be a viewpoint, that discounts many peoples feelings, and lacks real understanding of TS. 

However, there is a move to have these definitions scrapped, because they are finding that everybody is unique and this categorization was of TS based on onset is a bit bunk.  Everybody is different, and even the onset definitions do not take into account a number of factors that are individual to each person. Placing a hierarchy on TS does more to block treatment and access than actually help an individual out.  One needs to get beyond this. 

With that being said, even under the older definitions you will find just as many primary TS who had onset and consciousness at 11-13 as you will at the age of five.  But these older definitions, do not even mean much anymore, and has been completely dropped by the clinical community with regards to TS, and it has been better for it. 

I personally knew I was always different from the age of three, but it did not fully occur to me that I should have been female until the age of 11.  I was emotionally, physically and psychologically different then boys when I was younger (even though I was not aware of it I was effeminate in many ways), but I was not fully conscious until I was 11.  Even under the older definitions I fall under primary TS/early onset. 

This was the conclusion of a 2000 Paper which was very influential on the current SoC:

Conclusion

Despite efforts to classify transsexualism hierarchically, neither sexual preference nor a history of feminine behavior have been shown to have any bearing on whether or not an individual will or will not profit from treatment. The work of Person and Ovesey was helpful in describing the range of behaviors and orientations to life that transsexuals may experience. From this we have learned that transsexuals can be widely different from one another, yet show a common need for their condition to be understood and helped. There are no primary transsexuals or secondary transsexuals. There are no true transsexuals or "wannabe" transsexuals. Being gender dysphoric in a society that barely acknowledges the existence of such a condition requires the development of coping mechanisms. Some coping mechanisms are more overt and obvious than others. But no matter what the individual does to survive, one thing is certain, everyone who suffers from gender dysphoria must eventually come to terms with his or her situation.

it can be found here: http://www.avitale.com/PrimarySecondary.htm

Quote from: Keira on June 10, 2007, 02:59:27 PM
To say with clarity at 7, I'm a girl, it must matter in your life.

Well it's odd. I can say with certainty I knew I wanted to be a girl at age 4. I can't say I knew I WAS a girl though - that wouldn't have made any sense to me, since I was obviously a boy physically. I was me, I was apparently born a boy (had boy parts and people called me a boy, so...), and I wanted to be a girl instead.

On the other hand, if you read through my 2,000 posts, you'll notice I have this teeeeeny little problem with thinking I deserve things. And to have the audacity to think I deserved to think I WAS a girl, when everyone else told me I was a boy... well, NOT happening. No way I deserved to think I WAS one. So I sulked in the in desperate need to BE one.

But thinking back, I'm not sure what gender differences I noticed that early. Girls had long hair and prettier clothes. Funny, cuz I DO remember envying the prettier hair, but never cared one bit about the clothes. My friends that early were girls, but I already felt ashamed to play with their stuff... as I knew early on that "boys" didn't do that. Shame... shame...

One weird tidbit though: I WOULD say that my sexual orientation was "late onset" in the sense that I just didn't GET IT until now. In the same way many TSs say they didn't put together the clues until later in life, the same goes for my liking of guys. In hindsight, it's so STUPID, like how could I NOT have known? I never fantasized about sex with women, only BEING them, or being with them as best friends. All my relationships with guys always ended up like platonic BF/GF relationships. I never dated, not once until I met my wife... whom I avoided sex with as much as I could. I mean... DUH! But it's only clear in hindsight, so I can imagine a similar thing happening with GID feelings.

~Kate~

QuoteHave you ever fantasized or imagined yourself as the woman in a sexual scenario?

Yes, I imagined this numerous times over many years before figuring out that I was transgendered. There was a period of time where I thought I was a gay (and then bi) male. I was always feminist identified, reading everything gender studies related that I could get my hands on. It really made a lot of sense to me once I  realized that I was more comfortable as a lesbian, or whatever I might consider myself as someone who currently identifies as androgyne.

QuoteThe work of Person and Ovesey was helpful in describing the range of behaviors and orientations to life that transsexuals may experience. From this we have learned that transsexuals can be widely different from one another, yet show a common need for their condition to be understood and helped. There are no primary transsexuals or secondary transsexuals. There are no true transsexuals or "wannabe" transsexuals. Being gender dysphoric in a society that barely acknowledges the existence of such a condition requires the development of coping mechanisms. Some coping mechanisms are more overt and obvious than others. But no matter what the individual does to survive, one thing is certain, everyone who suffers from gender dysphoria must eventually come to terms with his or her situation.

Thanks for posting this Amy T. I'm truly glad to see progress being made regarded outmoded ways of thinking in the SoC.

zythyra

Kate,
All my relationship with women ended platonic even before they reached the sex part!!, they started as a flirt but I could not sustain the charade it and quickly I became a brother/sister to them; I had no libido for women and never really understood why since I found them so attractive, nice, etc. That really puzzled me for a long long while, how can I be a women if I'm attracted to them (in my head this no sex drive attraction was similar to those of other men, but it obviously it wasn't!!!).

One thing I noticed, I was very very uncomfortable seeing the genitals of men all the time... It kind of initiated something in me that I didn't know what to do with, so I avoided any situations where that could happen. I never changed in my whole life in front of a man, ever because again, I felt weird if they saw me...

If I'd been on the lookout for all those things then and put them all together like a CSI  , I would have been "fixed" sooner.

I think I knew I always had an attraction to men, but since I liked women so much and I thought that this attraction was sexual (when it was not), I was mightily confused for a long while.  I couldn't identify with being a man, so being gay was out also, like I said... Confusing.

I was so non treatening as a male, even though I was physically attractive, that husbands of wives didn't blink if their wives spent mucho time with me even if they didn't know me that well (maybe they tought I was gay...).

I didn't project male at all.

Wow! Some of you have a lot more computer time than I do.

I just want to apologize for any offense taken by my earlier remarks and say once again I have nothing but appreciation for the struggles of everyone who dares to express their gender uniqueness. I appreciate the knowledge and insights you shared on this, Amy. I don't keep up with gender studies on a constant basis, so I'm sure I can use some updating. I didn't mean to convey that I thought everyone who's a "TS" knows by a very young age and everyone else is not "TS". Indeed, just from the posts here, it's apparent gender realization takes time for many of us. It does seem to me that amidst the struggles by individuals to find identity and by the scientific community to understand those individuals that there is a strong bias toward "transsexuality" as an end and resolution. This is understandable, since or society (species?) likes to think of everyone in a clear gender pigeonhole. I wonder if that were not the case, and our society allowed for a wider range of gender roles-- and easy transition between them-- if many persons whose realization of inner gender is less immediately certain might make different choices than they have.  The hard truth about ->-bleeped-<- is that even the most successful transition doesn't actually change a person into the other gender. You change your appearance and lifestyle to suit the sex you feel you are inside. This process greatly reminds me of the struggle an artist goes through. Most great artists don't have a clue about how to be creative. They simply try to understand things and represent reality the way they see it. In the process, they often create a new reality. I think transgenderists are creating a new reality without quite realizing it. I think one can benefit a great deal by examining oneself and realizing: A. I can never be a man (at least not in the usual since), B. No matter how much I try, I'll never be entirely a "woman" (at least in the usual since), and C. I am unique and wonderful, and how can I make the most of that?

OK. It's late. Sweet dreams, everybody!

Lyric

Quote from: Keira on June 10, 2007, 01:25:34 PM
Pre-puberty, the demarcation between girls and boys used to be less severe than it is now where little boys try to be men before they're ten and girls of 10 dress like 16 year old girl used to dress 20 years ago.

It's not just the kids trying to be adult, but also the fashion industry is making them do so. Nowadays, it is pretty hard to find neutral children's clothes: those for younger ones are either in the 'pink and flowers' range or the 'dark blue and bulldozers' one; after about the pre-school age the former category converts into mini-skirts and tops. Somehow it gives the impression that girls' fashions are designed by paedophiles...

The thing that really bugs me in this is that the kids (and their parents) are required to make such a clear choice of a gender so early on.

Quote from: Kate on June 10, 2007, 04:31:53 PM
Well it's odd. I can say with certainty I knew I wanted to be a girl at age 4. I can't say I knew I WAS a girl though - that wouldn't have made any sense to me, since I was obviously a boy physically. I was me, I was apparently born a boy (had boy parts and people called me a boy, so...), and I wanted to be a girl instead.

That sounds familiar, although I only remember thinking that a few years later (but then I have very few clear memories from so early an age). The physical evidence was clear, and there wasn't much to be done, even though I wasn't happy about it. It took a while to realise that this wasn't just something boys are supposed to feel, and even longer to figure out that I had real issues with my gender.

Anyway, to have been able to claim that I was a girl around age ten would have required either far less or far more perceptiveness than I had. That is, either I'd have had to be able to ignore the physical evidence or I'd have had to be able to figure out the difference between gender and sex, essentially all by myself. Looking back, I don't see how I could have done either.

  Nfr

I can really agree with the people talking about platonic relationships. I have made so many friends and so few lovers