I'm wondering what yalls thoughts on what I'm in for if I go into engineering as a transsexual. The two branches I'm interested in are civil engineering and biomedical engineering. I'm leaning towards civil because I've always wanted to make things that help people (even things like highway systems and efficient drainage systems would make me happy to do) and be able to design would be AWESOME. However I've always loved medicine and helping to find treatment or even cures for the ill would be awesome, too.

Either way, any engineers? Any insight on what to expect as a trans woman wanting to go to school in her 30s? I know it's a very male dominant field, and I'm hoping I can be comfortable doing it in a male environment.

I'm not an engineer but I say if you want to do it go for it! Show the men you can do it 10x better than they can

I retired early but had 35 years as a Land Surveyor and Engineer with the California Department of Transportation.  Loved it, but got stressed out in the end due to politics effecting my projects.  State government employees are protected from discrimination or harassment, and transgender employees were one of the protected groups specifically named in our Sexual Harassment Training information.  HR knew I had some sort of issue, but as you probably know I was never out so they had no idea what it was.  Over the last 25 years I jumped back and forth from construction inspection to management, and I know that many of the twelve district offices had at least one transsexual employee.  I never heard of a problem. 

Civil Engineering has a lot of specialties, and for those who are willing to suffer the elements there's lots of outside work.  Here in Cal working outside was great.  You'd find a niche. 

Kathy

I am a mechanical engineer and worked in the engineering profession for a few years and then switched to IT. Engineering is one of the best educations you can get. You can use your education literally anywhere. I worked for a defense contractor a few years ago and because I had the security background, I was hit up by the government recruiters a few times. The shortage of engineers in the US is crazy.i look out at the landscape today and realize that the person who will end up replacing me when I get old will be a foreigner only because there are so so few technical people in the US with a bachelors or better education.

Just understand that you are going to need really good math skills, excellent understanding of physics and electronics as well as chemistry and computers. Staring salaries with a 4 year degree are around $65-75k these days. Civil engineers are paid higher, but a CE degree is only going to be worthwhile if you are pursuing a registered professional engineer. That will take a minimum of 8 years (bachelors degree, pass the EIT test, must work for 4 years on only specific types of work, and after 4 years must pass an 8 hour exam). But being a PE is like the holy grail of the engineering world and you will be sought out be employers.

The thing is you have to love what you do, and if you love building things, seeing how things work, a need to understand things, then engineering is going to be for you. When I was in college, most people who started in engineering ended up as business majors. They just didn't have the mind for the intense math and science needed. My class started off as 475 students in the freshman class and there were 25 of us on graduation day. Thats guaranteed job security right there!! They (universities) have classes they use to test ones mettle. If you can't pass some certain classes then engineering might not be the right profession for you. That's usually where the engineers part ways with the business majors. When I was in school it was dynamics and electrical theory 2. All engineers have to take those classes and pass them. If you can't pass them then they propose switching majors.

This is why I am into cars, inventing things (I have several patents), figuring things out, etc. its my nature so why fight it?? It is a great profession, it never loses its value, in fact it goes up with age, I can work at a company as an individual contributor and yet earn the same as senior managers without the hassles of managing. I'm happy to wear the geek badge with honor as well as the trans badge

Like Zumbagirl says, if you love it, do it regardless of being a male dominated field. Besides being the rare female will just make you stand out in a good way. As far as civil vs medical, choose the one you love most. If you start class and find it's not for you, you can switch.

I don't know about being trans, but plenty of people go to school in their 30s and beyond (I am; online for now though.)  Quite common nowadays. Besides you're a pretty girl with a great smile and personality. I wouldn't worry. 

Our college of engineering had a society of woman engineers. I believe it was a national organization. I've known many very successful female engineers.

Quote from: agfrommd on February 23, 2013, 08:06:43 AM
Our college of engineering had a society of woman engineers. I believe it was a national organization. I've known many very successful female engineers.

I belonged to the organization a few years ago and it was a good experience and I think helped me feel more comfortable being me. What was better is my membership is ASME and those meetings and sessions are worth their weight in gold. Excellent networking opportunities and awesome demos and guest speakers. If you want to see the future that's where it is.

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 23, 2013, 06:51:08 AM
.....Staring salaries with a 4 year degree are around $65-75k these days. ....

With Cal DOT (Caltrans) the salaries are a bit lower, but the benefits are fantastic.  Nearly fully paid healthcare, dental and eye coverage.  Plus that continues into retirement.  I payed more into the retirement system to stay in the top retirement category, but now only pay $15 a month for healthcare.  Not bad.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 23, 2013, 07:46:05 AM
...  a male dominated field. ... 

With Caltrans about 40% of the management and engineering positions were filled by women.  But Environmental and Traffic were at least 50% female.

Sorry, but I'm still proud of my school.  It has around 6000 students and it's in one of the most remote and beautiful places in the US.   http://www.mtu.edu/diversity-center/programs/students/glbtq-outreach/

Take care.   Kathy

OP - I am an engineer, and have had no issues being a trans woman engineer. For the most part, engineering has more to do with your mind and skills than it does your gender. In the past I have worked with many female engineers who got just as much respect as male engineers. The only difference I have seen between being a male engineer and that of a female engineer is people don't argue with me as much. Now, when I chime in during a conversation everyone listens and they don't argue with me. I personally don't like engineering because it is far too easy but, I think it is a great field to go into for trans women. We get plenty of respect as long as we are good at our job.

Do you have an idea for what companies you would eventually like to work for?  You could probably look up their tolerance policies here: http://www.hrc.org/apps/cei/ and use that to get a feel for the rest of the industry.  Good luck!

Quote from: Bailey on February 23, 2013, 01:54:25 PM
I could say it as it is or I could sugar coat it. It's your choice.

As it is. As it is! Personally, I love reading your posts!

I am a Mechanical PE and I am going on HRT in 6 weeks, so I look male. I work with many engineers of which some are women. Women engineers need to work harder and have barriers to overcome in the begining. When you get established and show organization skills, nurturing young engineers, creativity, keeping deadlines, bringing projects under budget, remaining calm and resolving issues quickly and with good outcomes and fostering new work then you wright your own ticket.

Wow, a wealth of info / support here. Thank you

Quote from: Zumbagirl on February 23, 2013, 06:51:08 AM
The thing is you have to love what you do, and if you love building things, seeing how things work, a need to understand things, then engineering is going to be for you.

I've always been fascinated by certain things and wanted to learn more. Things like how ditches drain into rivers, what it takes to build a complex highway interchange, how medicine works, how lab tests work, skyscrapers (even the intricacies of them such as electrical infrastructure, drainage, plumbing, elevators etc), stadiums, I can go on and on. I've been known to try to fix inexpensive stuff (like a computer mouse), however I do get nervous about taking apart something expensive. I think that'd go away with knowledge. The only thing that would deter me is the physical aspect of it. I couldn't be a mechanic... I don't like getting dirty, sweaty, cutting my hand and arm with a screwdriver. But I wouldn't mind being the idea maker

Quote from: EmSchuma on February 23, 2013, 10:34:05 AM
Do you have an idea for what companies you would eventually like to work for?  You could probably look up their tolerance policies here: http://www.hrc.org/apps/cei/ and use that to get a feel for the rest of the industry.  Good luck!

The city I live in has a trans inclusive policy. It is illegal for even private companies to discriminate against us here.

Quote from: Cynthia Michelle on February 23, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
When you get established and show organization skills, nurturing young engineers, creativity, keeping deadlines, bringing projects under budget, remaining calm and resolving issues quickly and with good outcomes and fostering new work then you wright your own ticket.

That's what I'm talking about! I'm good at that stuff!

I'd also like to add, my grades in high school were horrid. However that was 10 years ago. I have since been in telecom for 10 years (troubleshooting phone systems and wiring). I've also went to an accredited trade school where I earned a 3.6 GPA... but in cosmetology. I'm hoping I can go to a community college to get some refreshers on math (since I'll take it seriously this time....) before going to a university. I also want financial aid. I was approved for financial aid at the trade school... would it be an issue with community college?

I'm a senior scientist with a large multinational corporation.  I work with engineers every day and I am part of an interview team for one  engineering subdiscipline.  Our last three hires were women, one of whom is close to 40.  The policies toward transsexuals are as good or better than anywhere else.  The career opportunities are fantastic.  You will be valued by the majority of your bosses more for you abilities than for anything else.  Peers, especially plant engineers, get into clicks and there can be a struggle in that environment.  However, it's all about results.

My employer has close to 8,000 engineers world wide and most are mechanical or chemical engineers.  Either of those fields would be good.  Environmental engineering, particularly oriented toward sustainability, is a field that is up and coming.  We have a few biomedical engineers who all seem to be quieter than the typical engineer.  Good field.  We don't have many civil engineers but those we do seem to be more "tough guy" than typical engineers. We are seeing a rise in the number of controls engineers that are hired. I don't know much about electrical engineers. 

Based on your last post, think about environmental engineering.

In school, if you can handle the math and then constantly doing math, your off to a good start.  There is also a LOT of computer knowledge required.  That makes it better.  Thinking outside the box or looking at things in a different way is highly valued.  Your age won't matter or it could even be a plus.   

     

I'm a network engineer by education but as a career I'm an aerospace machines. I've had very successful careers in both fields. The first was as male and in an IT career. My current is in aerospace. I have to say I make twice what I did as male.

I say go for it and don't even think twice about trans being an issue

Well you sound jaded, for sure.

Pay isn't necessarily the biggest driver for me. I'm fine with being able to pay my loans back and have some money on the side to live comfortably, and have job security. What sort of autonomy is available in the industry? I wouldn't mind working with people, but I am used to working alone anyways so... either way is fine by me.

This is interesting, not only for me but because I have an uncle who is an engineer, a cousin who is an architect, another cousin who is an electrical engineer, and a brother who is in school for engineering. I'd like to throw this kind of stuff at them and see what they have to say about it all.

You didn't burst my bubble by the way. I have the internet, I've read the negativity (and positivity) from others in the profession.

Quote from: Bailey on February 23, 2013, 08:24:01 PM
I will portray it as it is, then. Prepare for bubble bursting.
..................................
I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

You definitely put it on the line, and told the truth.  I'll add that Engineering is incredibly rewarding if you know what you want, and you do your best work all the time.  I went into engineering because I loved construction and highways for some reason.  I still love highways, and as I drive around North Central California it's pleasing to see all the projects that I worked on or managed. 

Kathy

Believe it or not, its common in many field what bailey states. Have a look into law, man o man, not good prospectives, unless you gradute from the Ivy Leagues. Medicine, eh, some doctors like what they do, some dont', goes for any profession, you make what you want of it, really.

To me there are two classes of people.
1. Optomists, are the one who have great visions of what can be, it can be done, but at huge sacrifices.
2. Realists, those that know what has been done and will do what is possible under the circumstances.

Lucia,
Not jaded, just chill

When I was fresh out of college, my first job was called a "project engineer" for a large paper company that had several plants in the northeast. I really hated that job. It was more like a project manager kind of job. I wasn't involved in the blueprint process, but I had to make sure that everything worked when they wanted it to. I won't kid anyone and say I picked that job because of the money. So then I tried working for a large plastics company. It involved a lot of intricacies of mold design, assembly line machinery, qa testing. It was a really involved job and this company was really cutting edge. I got to do a lot of travel and had several interesting machine design projects where finally I got to do some creating and I actually liked it. Unfortunately there were a string of bank failures in the area and this company banked heavily with one of the, and before I knew poof they literally put out of existence over a very sort period of time. I did learn a lot at this company. I had a good boss who had a really good engineering background and I tried to mimic this when i could. So then I moved to a company that built plotters and printers. That was engineering work. It was pure machine design. Suddenly a lot of the engineering stuff I learned in college was needed. Calculating mass moments of inertia, sizing up servo motors, designing mechanisms, gears, cams, belt drives. I actually liked this job when I started. It was here that one of my patents came from. At this company they were big on doing finite element analysis, a study of stresses and forces on parts. I would set up jobs and run them over night. Typically a FEA study would involve many hours of standalone computation. So I ended up spending a lot of time behind a computer screen. To move all of his data around needed some automation and some programming and it was there where my real career was born in IT. I found I had a knack for it. I had started to morph into the companies IT person almost by accident only because it was what I really wanted to do.

After a few years I went into IT consulting and that for a few years and I learned a few things. Where not to work and what things that everyone else was doing wrong. Eventually somehow I caught the eye of an up and coming .com company and they led me away with the promise of those wonderful "stock options", you know the stuff that made gates and Ellison who they are.

Thats when I found that there are 2 kinds of IT, the real practitioners of the art who do real software engineering and the countless rabble of meatball coders I call them. They don't understand how things work, they just write the code. So I learned all that I could, educated myself more as needed and I ended up becoming a star employee once again. I left when the company was sold, it was my choice, and took the money and run. It was right around Srs time so I needed the money anyways. Afterwards on a whim I tried consulting again and ended up working at a defense contractor where apparently my piece of paper degree had some value to them. My background of sort of half engineer and half IT person was valuable to them and they offered me a job and I took it. I worked with some very smart people there and it was pleasant and I moved up quickly and ended up in management. Let's face facts about corporate life, this is where all the gravy is in management. Is also where all the difficulties are, people issues, corporate finance and governance, how to manage up effectively, etc. Here I was a fairly new postie and I am running an IT shop at a defense plant. I was figuring how can it just be me? I was doing pretty well, but in the Hartford CT area are several large insurance companies and guess what? They pay a lot more than a job at a defense plant. So I quit and here I am.

The post script to this is that the fascination I had for machines growing up never went away, but in the process I found out my real hobby. It was cars, I was a car nut. I love wrenching on them, modding them, restoring them, painting, electrical systems you name it. These days I buy a car so that I can modify it. How can I make it better, faster, louder, etc. I give a car a personality and then I get bored with it, so I sell it. So I'm my heart I'm a car gal, on paper I'm a mechanical engineer and I work in IT management for a living.

One more observation and this is about the current crop of Indian H1 visa workers. A fascinating thing I have noticed is that there are very few real computer science people working in IT. Most are engineers by education and this runs the gamut. Pick an engineering discipline and I guarantee you that there are a 1000 people with that same degree in IT. But a lot of them suck in IT, I mean truly suck. To be effective in the IT worked you need to spend some time working with the wizards who do real honest to goodness software engineering. That's where one will learn how to do real IT. Learn that and one can work anywhere because the skills will cross any boundary of IT and that's where the real value of the skill comes in. The problem with this is that once I myself became good at it, they wanted me to manage instead. They lured me away from the art with money, bonuses, stocks, all the stuff we all want in the end. I used to worry about being in management and being removed from the art, but the reality is the pay is so much more that even if my career ended in 5 years i will still be pretty much set for life although not buying a fleet of new toys every year. But I still believe that the way I pursued my career is the right way and the general background that engineering provides offers a good chance to find out where one wants to work.

Quote from: Bailey on February 23, 2013, 08:24:01 PM
I will portray it as it is, then. Prepare for bubble bursting.

I am a Mechanical D. Eng. P. Eng. P.E. Eur-Ing(PN) licensed in ten Canadian provinces and sixteen US states as well as the EU. I do mechanical, chemical, petroleum, mechatronic, materials, structural, process, manufacturing, a little civil, and occasionally biomedical engineering. I have been doing this for less than a decade but have made it to the top of the heap because of my intelligence, tenacity, and ability to provide results. In my experience, I have come to understand that most "engineers' are completely and utterly incompetent. I have to deal with it on nearly a daily basis. I am the person they call when they screw up royally and need someone to fix things. That being said, I am booked three to six months in advance. That should tell you something and this is a regular occurrence.

Education:

Most engineering students go into the major for the opportunity to acquire a six figure income. Most engineers don't reach that level in the first place, but it is a good marketing tool for the universities to use, however misleading it may be. The first year of engineering is usually the same for everyone because disciplines aren't chosen until the end of the first year in many cases. This year is meant to weed out the ones who don't have the drive or skill or whose high school grades were inflated by nice teachers.  The first year dropout rate is close to half. Not that they all leave university, but they change majors or schools. The second year is when it becomes slightly interesting. Some basic courses are still required by all, but most are discipline specific. This year weeds out even more students and it's a good thing, too. They wouldn't like where they are going.

As was said previously, a lot of engineering students change majors to business, which is true. Others also finish the engineering degree and end up in managerial positions and push paper, not really ever engineering anything. It is extremely common.

The professors are equally as incompetent, though. However scary that is. The axiom "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach," holds especially true in this case. It is a sign of terrible things to come if students are correcting the professors on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong, I went to one of the best engineering schools in the world and this was still the case. There is a reason many of the engineers replacing the retiring ones in North America are foreign: Icarus has climbed too high.

The Real World of Engineering:

Most of the things taught in university are only good on a theoretical level, which is fine if one stays in academia. Well, not really. It's actually very bad.

My first engineering job had me show up on a Monday morning with three other new hires. We were promptly met by a senior engineer and each given fourteen discipline-specific texts of over six hundred pages each to read so that we could be of use to the company. We were supposed to have them read by the following Monday morning. Two of my associates quit on the spot and walked out the door. The other one lasted until Wednesday. I was the only one to complete the required reading. My ability to retain information and present it as knowledge quickly prompted a promotion and pay raise along with the fact that I was the only one capable of finishing the material required. I found out later that it was part of the company's policy to remove dysfunctional workers from the organization. I was lucky that I was at company with people who knew what they were doing.

The case with other engineering companies was different. They were incompetent. They still are. I remember receiving drawings and specification that were completely wrong, drawings and specification that had huge errors on them, drawings and specification that didn't match, drawings and specification that had basic mathematical errors a third grader could have corrected, drawings and specification that had the wrong numbers for half of the specifications and they wondered why their project didn't work or why it exploded in the test phase, et cetera. And this wasn't from just one company; it was from all of them on a regular basis. It didn't matter if it was a new client or an old client or if the company was established or a startup, they were consistently wrong. And as I learned later, this is par for the course. 

A couple of years later, I was tasked with training newly minted "engineers." I was appalled with the fact that I was met with blank stares when I asked them what Poisson's ratio was. I wanted them to show me their expensive pieces of paper (degrees) so I could burn them. They were unable to read a simple engineering drawing. This is a basic prerequisite that engineers use to communicate ideas from one person to another. I wanted to bang my head on the wall. I was flabbergasted with their lack of knowledge of how things were actually made, otherwise known as the manufacturing process and wanted to leave the room. I was absolutely disgusted with their sheer ignorance of basic engineering principles and I actually told them to go home for the day so I could sit in my office and weep for humanity. But the thing that most disturbed me was how they dripped with arrogance because they "had an engineering degree." I fired them all. They didn't know anything they were supposed to know and I was not going to teach them things they should have retained from six months previous. I don't even know how they got those pieces of paper. Mind you, I already had my doctorate when I started my job whereas these were just holding freshly printed bachelor's degrees.

Competent engineers end up starting their own companies or become consultants. Comparatively speaking, there aren't many of us.

Licensure:

Licensure is about economic protectionism. End of story. It is not about safety as most would have you think. It is a way to create an artificial scarcity thereby raising prices.

If you were to look at most engineering firms, you would see that there are a handful of people who stamp things. It is usually the owners or the partners or the top echelon depending on the business structure. This is, firstly, because the rest of the engineering staff is incompetent and, secondly, because the top people wish to maintain a reputation for themselves as being good at what they do. When an engineer stamps something, he becomes professionally liable for any mistakes associated with it with rare exception and, in some cases, also adds person liability to it if they can be proven to be negligent. I have concluded that there is a reason for this. Incompetent engineers know they are incompetent and don't want that kind of exposure. I know many a licensed engineer who has never stamped a thing in their entire career. They could end up having their licensed revoked and in jail if someone ends up dead because of their incompetence. They don't trust their own judgment and they know it. They should not be engineers.

This goes back to the raising of prices: Competent engineers have to pay for the incompetent engineers salaries. They are the ones who charge fifteen hundred dollars an hour or more in some cases, depending on the circumstances, to pay for the other office staff and the nineteen (arbitrary number) other "engineers" who sit around and do what a secretary could do for half the cost.
If engineers were competent, I would be doing something much more productive than fixing the industries' screw-ups.

Women in Engineering:

There are lots of women in engineering. I don't think we need our own society or clubs for it, though. That's just sexist and exclusionist. I have met very few truly competent engineers and I have dealt with thousands of them. Out of the competent ones, three of them are women. Most female engineers I know are in either sales or managerial positions. The two of the three who aren't in those two areas are project leads and the other is a consultant. To clarify, project leads are not the same as managers. Managers push paper and rehash other people's work as their own, which happens in about ninety percent of cases that I can account for, whereas project leads are tasked with creating something new, from scratch, and bringing it to fruition with a team under them. Very few engineering firms do this to begin with, but those that do are, more often than not, great at it.

Most, but not all, female engineers I have interacted with are only in their positions because of corporate (sexist) quotas, not because of competency. This gives them an inflated sense of self-worth when they are no better and oftentimes worse than their male counterparts they command.

Conclusion:

If you truly love math and want to know how and why things work and you like to build things, it is a great profession provided you can maneuver yourself into a position that allows yourself some sort of autonomy. If you are truly great, you will end up being scouted and underpaid or you will be battered with office politics until such time as you are removed by force or you decide to quit because of the backstabbing and constant manipulation because one or several higher ups decides you're out for their jobs. Great engineers become consultants or start their own companies.
If you are average, you might make it into middle management. If you are incompetent like the majority, you'll be placed in a cubicle away from breakables and given mind-numbing tasks fit for someone with a considerably cheaper piece of paper.

I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.

Bailey, all I can say is wow wow wow!!!!
I think there must be some quantum entanglement between us, or I have found my forum soul mate!
I have never read a post on here that I have agreed with more than this you are definitely 100% spot on.
Like Alainaluvsu I entered engineering school in my late 20's early 30's, and did the dual degree track Aerospace /Mechanical Engineering.


I would like to add one thing I have also noticed attending one of the "OTHER IVIES" (highly overrated), that beyond the inflated salaries for the do nothing professors there is also an unhealthy trend amongst the younger students to achieve the highest grade possible by any means, this translates into widespread cheating, and a sort of wink wink nod nod by the faculty.


Your Poisson's ratio example was very funny and reminded me of an event some years ago as a sophomore. We had just received our grades for our mechanics of materials final exam I made a 96 and a friend had received a 92, he bragged that he had not done any homework the entire semester and proceeded to let me know that the only studying he had done was taking old final exam keys that a T.A had given him. The points he was deducted was due to a the use of improper signs, he then told me he did not understand why they deducted the points because he did not know why there should be a NEGATIVE SIGN associated with strain! This person had just made an "A" in MoM, but had no idea why strain values have signs associated with them, I can tell you that his behavior did not improve (actually got worse, as I had several senior labs with him as well as work together on a DARPA project) but this person is currently Ph.d candidate, and have I seen many other students (actually most) that were just like him.


What really sucked was as I was finishing up senior year and starting the graduate program the final labs we had were graded unfairly. Due to limited resources in each lab we were placed into groups and graded as a whole, thus all of the students who had slid through or cheated their way through the lectures were now completely useless in the lab, they could not remember (nor even try to find out) the most basic things from their thermo, fluids, heat transfer, materials, FEA, etc,, courses. Instead what would happen is they would show up to the labs and help me collect the data, then after a few days of trying to make sense out of it they would finally throw their hands up in the air and ask me to help. In the end I would be responsible for completing a report for myself and 5 others since we all collectively received one grade this meant I got very little sleep, ever!


I went to a professor about this once, I told him that I did not think this was fair at all and that I was being punished because other people did not learn what they were supposed to in previous 4 years, the professor actually said and I quote "F%*k you this is engineering , it is your responsibility to motivate your teammates" I asked him how do you motivate someone into learning years of material in a matter of days? He responded by saying that this was the engineering school's policy on grading labs end of the conversation.


So after years of undergrad and grad school busting my hump on projects for professors who don't pay anything, and seeing the availability and salaries of engineering jobs in America decrease, the cuts in the space program and defense industry, seeing friends that cannot even find a position starting at $ 40,000, I have become so disillusioned with the engineering scene that I am planning on leaving it! You can make more money pumping septic tanks than you can in this field and with much less headache!