No, because some will be totally un - detectable. It's the one's that you can read that  you are talking about. You can usually spot them by other reasons, i.e their butt too small, upper body too big, facial shape too large etc.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on February 24, 2013, 05:37:36 AM
No, because some will be totally un - detectable. It's the one's that you can read that  you are talking about. You can usually spot them by other reasons, i.e their butt too small, upper body too big, facial shape too large etc.

In reference to post-transition and post-HRT transgender persons, I agree. But I think the original poster was referring to those who haven't even started HRT and transition. The therapist was purporting to have something like a transdar. Presumably, such transdar would be able to detect ->-bleeped-<- in those who are not even aware of it themselves.

@Tesla: I don't think you can detect by the eyes as that's just silly. But for myself, I am not a masculine person whatsoever and anybody who knows me would agree. I don't like men either FYI. More than that, I've had at least six instances I can remember where people have given me their advice on sex changes from telling me how how you can't get rid of the adam's apple (i don't really have a large one so maybe they weren't talking about me) to how after getting SRS a lot of TSs kill themselves or to how I'll make a really ugly woman. I have gotten that one several times. This isn't wishful thinking on my part. Though maybe I'm just a weirdo and I don't belong here. I'm starting to have doubts on whether I should even transition or not which i guess is entirely normal. No doubts on whether i want to. Given the chance I'd have SRS tomorrow. I'm just afraid the hormones won't work and will leave me impotent and looking like a freak whom everyone talks about and laughs at.  I agree though it does seem that many pre-HRT ladies didn't lead a very femme life. Sorry for the tangent.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on February 24, 2013, 01:22:19 PM
@Tesla: I don't think you can detect by the eyes as that's just silly. But for myself, I am not a masculine person whatsoever and anybody who knows me would agree. I don't like men either FYI. More than that, I've had at least six instances I can remember where people have given me their advice on sex changes from telling me how how you can't get rid of the adam's apple (i don't really have a large one so maybe they weren't talking about me) to how after getting SRS a lot of TSs kill themselves or to how I'll make a really ugly woman. I have gotten that one several times. This isn't wishful thinking on my part. Though maybe I'm just a weirdo and I don't belong here. I'm starting to have doubts on whether I should even transition or not which i guess is entirely normal. No doubts on whether i want to. Given the chance I'd have SRS tomorrow. I'm just afraid the hormones won't work and will leave me impotent and looking like a freak whom everyone talks about and laughs at.  I agree though it does seem that many pre-HRT ladies didn't lead a very femme life. Sorry for the tangent.

Well first off, if you were to get SRS, you would never be able to "get it up" again, so impotence as such should not be a concern. Sexual arousal itself is more of a mental thing anyway, so unless you get a brainectomy you should be ok in that department.

Secondly, if people do "talk about and laughs at" someone they perceive to be "a freak", then those people have the problem, and we should not internalize *their* problems as our own.

Btw, if that's you in your avatar, you are very beautiful. I can see you're trans by your eyes (LOL).

I know my obsession with sexual function may seem strange but it is the one thing that has ever bought me the teeniest bit of fleeting satisfaction. Then on the other hand, SRS is the end goal since that would be satisfaction because then I would feel, for lack of a better word, complete, like I wasn't a freak. Like many, I've always felt this way but I can't make it go away for more than a couple days or a month. It's always there stalking me. But yeah, that is me in the avatar, and THANKS for the compliment it makes me feel better like maybe I will be able to do it, and pass, and all that. I'm not strong enough  to battle not passing all the time. Plus, for me, the goal is to also be accepted as a female by other females in a social role and maybe get a good job. I'm a magazine editor so being a fashion editor would be like a total dream come true. It's not so much about sex. That and I will prob be lesbian if I can go all the way. Though, don't quote me on that.

Sure if someone isn't passing, then you can tell, but if someone passes then you can't tell me that you can determine it because that would contradict the very meaning of passing. So your argument would be no matter what we cannot pass fully and that someone can tell by looking at our eyes for instance which I don't believe.

Unless there's an obvious difference between male and female eyes, I still don't think eyes can out you. 

Quote from: EmmaS on February 24, 2013, 07:52:39 PM
Sure if someone isn't passing, then you can tell, but if someone passes then you can't tell me that you can determine it because that would contradict the very meaning of passing. So your argument would be no matter what we cannot pass fully and that someone can tell by looking at our eyes for instance which I don't believe.

The beauty of this is that there's no way to verify it "before the fact", without upsetting everyone! Cis-women will get mad if one thinks they're trans, trans-women will get made because they thought they passed...

I think that the ther*pist either just wanted to connect with the person, or perhaps there was some subtle clue given out by the client...I remember reading a story once about the "tea-room trade" among homosexuals, they claim they know who's there for a ->-bleeped-<- and who is not, it's all about the eyes, where they look and how they glance at the other person...I'd think that a person who is uncomfortable with their body would give some sort of visual cues to an observant person.

 Okay I can somewhat believe that, since eye shape is a little bit dependent on masculinity and femininity, but if someone takes hormones and they have a positive effect, then their eye shape does change slightly and that helps with passing along with fat. So I would say you can tell the difference between a man and a woman based on their eyes but I don't think you can tell the difference between a passable trans woman and another woman based on their eyes.

Quote from: Tesla on February 24, 2013, 06:25:38 AM
In reference to post-transition and post-HRT transgender persons, I agree. But I think the original poster was referring to those who haven't even started HRT and transition. The therapist was purporting to have something like a transdar. Presumably, such transdar would be able to detect ->-bleeped-<- in those who are not even aware of it themselves.

No, I don't buy it sorry.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 24, 2013, 08:04:21 PM
Okay I can somewhat believe that, since eye shape is a little bit dependent on masculinity and femininity, but if someone takes hormones and they have a positive effect, then their eye shape does change slightly and that helps with passing along with fat. So I would say you can tell the difference between a man and a woman based on their eyes but I don't think you can tell the difference between a passable trans woman and another woman based on their eyes.

Is a "passable trans woman" moderately passable, occasionally passable or even 100% passable? On first glance they may pass, but on second glance something about their eyes draws attention. Perhaps, it's the prominent orbital rims above their eyes or something more subtle. But it's never just one feature that's the give-away, unless you consider genitals one feature! A woman may have deep set eyes, but the rest of the picture may be unquestionably female. It's the sum of the parts. Isolating one feature for examination may fail many cis-women.

Interesting. I consider myself androgynous (percieved as male) but don't give a femme vibe off to most people (I don't think). But I've always had these very soft, pretty, feminine eyes.

I'm not necessarily saying I believe the theory, but we read people's emotions from their faces, why couldn't we read mental states more generally? I think a whole lot of mental processes have a certain vibe that almost manifests physically.

I wouldn't reccomend "diagnosing" anyone based on that, though.

Quote from: Saffron on February 01, 2013, 03:10:58 PM
This is how GID will be diagnosed in the future





I knew you were transsexual from the moment you walked through the door.



I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. To live as a woman. To live as a man. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.




sorry 

Saffron, the first time I saw 'Blade Runner' near the end on the roof when Roy (Rutger Hauer) said to Deckard, "All those moments lost in time, like tears in rain" I cried. Rutger Hauer ad libbed the line too. Every time it's on I'll still make time or drop everything to see it. But your word and idea substitution is perfect. I've felt, done and seen things, as most of us have, that 'normal' people wouldn't believe or understand. I think it's one of the greatest scenes in movie history, and I'll watch anything Ridley Scott has directed.
As far as the question goes, I've seen photos of myself in my teens through thirties where I either looked androgynous or femme, mostly because of my body language. I did two terms in prison in the 90's and during the second one I broke my hand pretty badly playing basketball. Playing ball was the only thing keeping me halfway sane because of me being TS and hiding it, the often severe racial problems on the yard, and the threats from the white supremacists telling me they were going to kill me if I kept playing basketball with the blacks. Anyway, the day after it happened I went to to a friend, told him I had a sliver and borrowed his tweezers. Then I went into the bathroom and plucked my eyebrows, then shaved my legs. There were a few other transsexuals there and both of them told me after I semi transitioned that they knew I was TS the minute they saw me. I had this photo taken of me a month after my 41st birthday and about a month before I transitioned in prison. It was my first extended time living without a costume of maleness and I loved it. I ended up with a guy in there who was getting out a month after me and he wanted me to completely transition and live with him, but he was a drug dealer who wasn't about to change and I wasn't about to do anything illegal to go back again, so I grew my eyebrows back and stopped shaving about two months before my release. That was 1996 and I wanted so badly to continue and go all the way, but I had no job, no money and no real home to parole to, so I didn't transition till 2011. Fifteen agonizing, wasted years. I don't think I looked transsexed in this photo, but at least two other transsexuals said they knew immediately.

No, some are perfect and have female eyes.

A freind of mine said that she saw my "pain screaming from my eyes" (the pain of not having the body I was supposed to have). Later she said that it was more overall the face - the expression I guess. My gender therapist also went for intuitive clues. I dont think it is the eyes alone, it is the whole face plus it will probably not work like you look at 1000 males and spot the 1001st person looking male as a MtF. But in a more narrow framework, I guess one can pick up clues...

One of my close freinds saw me as Zoe for the first time a couple of weekends ago, and said something that is true.
She said that she always felt that there was something missing with me, and that she could see that there was something vacant in me. She then said that i looked a lot more happier as a girl, and she could see that spark in my eyes for the first time!

Also my therapist often says that from the first time she saw me, i look alot happier and she's often saying she can see that im my eyes!!

So yes i think that the eyes do give away alot. Perhaps you wont be able to tell that someone is transexual just by looking at there eyes, but i think people couild see that there was something troubling me and that i have been unhappy, and now ive come out and am dealing with this the pain and unhappyness is gradually leaving and i just look happier!!

Xx

Quote from: anjaq on November 06, 2013, 04:56:03 AM
A freind of mine said that she saw my "pain screaming from my eyes" (the pain of not having the body I was supposed to have). Later she said that it was more overall the face - the expression I guess. My gender therapist also went for intuitive clues. I dont think it is the eyes alone, it is the whole face plus it will probably not work like you look at 1000 males and spot the 1001st person looking male as a MtF. But in a more narrow framework, I guess one can pick up clues...

I see what your getting at. You would see and feel their pain which might manifest itself in facial expression, tears and severe depression.

Quote from: Zoe Louise Taylor on November 06, 2013, 05:16:18 AM
One of my close freinds saw me as Zoe for the first time a couple of weekends ago, and said something that is true. She said that she always felt that there was something missing with me, and that she could see that there was something vacant in me. She then said that i looked a lot more happier as a girl, and she could see that spark in my eyes for the first time!

That's true. As a guy (I use that term loosely as I was never like a guy and rarely had short hair) you will never be part of that crowd, that essence of being male won't ever be there. For me I never felt part of that and guys could see that I wasn't like them, but girls wanted to be my friend and confide in me. 

I am sure it is a very individual thing but there does seem to be something that gives away gender at a glance, even when removed from context, but I have no idea what that might be.

In my 64 years I have seen it happen far too consistently for it to be random or "chance". As a child I was, at first glance, perceived as female and yet  when an adult became aware of my legal sex, it just resulted in confusion (for them) and the feeling that something wasn't right. At 15 I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin in about 15 minutes; I later came to know one other who was diagnosed around the same time (1966) and we could not figure out how he could be so certain so quickly! In my later teens I tried to go androgynous at college but the vast majority of my fellow students believed I was a girl masquerading as a guy to attend technical school (think Yentl YEARS before the movie was written). In the years following transition/SRS there were a number of occasions when I SHOULD have been mis-gendered (due to context, appearance, etc.) and sometimes was mis-gendered until the person saw my face and then rapidly corrected themselves. In every case it seemed to be the eyes that gave it away.

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 06, 2013, 05:24:08 AM
I am sure it is a very individual thing but there does seem to be something that gives away gender at a glance, even when removed from context, but I have no idea what that might be.

In my 64 years I have seen it happen far too consistently for it to be random or "chance". As a child I was, at first glance, perceived as female and yet  when an adult became aware of my legal sex, it just resulted in confusion (for them) and the feeling that something wasn't right. At 15 I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin in about 15 minutes; I later came to know one other who was diagnosed around the same time (1966) and we could not figure out how he could be so certain so quickly! In my later teens I tried to go androgynous at college but the vast majority of my fellow students believed I was a girl masquerading as a guy to attend technical school (think Yentl YEARS before the movie was written). In the years following transition/SRS there were a number of occasions when I SHOULD have been mis-gendered (due to context, appearance, etc.) and sometimes was mis-gendered until the person saw my face and then rapidly corrected themselves. In every case it seemed to be the eyes that gave it away.

Your story is a bit like mine only your original diagnosis was two decades earlier. I too was often perceived as a girl masquerading as a guy in my teens and early 20's.

But are you are saying your eyes didn't look female? or the other way round?