Quote from: Dahlia on February 27, 2013, 04:43:37 AM
Gender ID is inborn too. Think of Bruce/Brenda-John/Joan- David Reimer. That's been proven at the cost of his life, in the end.

He didn't exactly 'choose', didn't he?

I'm not stating my opinion on the subject. I'm saying there isn't a definite answer of whether it's genetic or determined at birth; you were saying on another post to supply proof. All that is out there opinion, speculation, and debate. I'm not saying I want it to be determined one way or another, it's just not "scientifically" proven yet. I want whatever helps us the most in society to be the way it was determined ultimately.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 25, 2013, 05:16:43 PM
Well I'm straight and I definitely do think it's easier to be straight because it's what people expect.

I don't think so. What people expect doesn't really matter, if they have a problem with you for being trans, they're gonna say something whether you're straight or gay.

Plus I think straight transwomen have it harder with relationships than translesbians.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 04:21:43 AM
Well there are two arguments for what drives our sexuality. It's between genetics and societal influences; neither has been proven and both have a lot of backing and support.

There's also chemical imbalance in the womb.

I don't think it has anything to do with societal influence imo; wouldn't there be more gay people then? Plus those urges are there for a reason, they're for reproduction. Most animals don't need to learn who they should mate with, it just is. Wouldn't it make more sense that sexuality is wired in and not taught?

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 27, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with societal influence imo; wouldn't there be more gay people then?

That's one argument essentialist use against the social constructionist view, but each side has solid arguments to be honest.

What would some of those be?

Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 04:46:19 AMi think social influences are AT LEAST as much the cause of sexual attraction as any genetic component, if not more.

Son (born and living in the Western World): 'Mother I have to tell you something'

Mother: 'what my dear?'

Son: 'I'm into men only, I'm gay'

Mother: 'WHAT?? MY SON, GAY??? WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG?' (starts crying and sobbing)

Father: (while listening in) 'it's our fault! We've socially influenced him wrongly!'

Mother: WHAT? WE DIDN'T BEHAVE STRAIGHT ENOUGH?? OUR NEIGHBOURS, OUR RELATIVES, EVEN THE DISTANCE ONES ARE ALL STRAIGHT AS A LINE!!
WE ARE STRAIGHT AND WE'VE RAISED HIM TO BE STRAIGHT LIVING IN A STRAIGHT WORLD!!'

Father: 'yes mother, you're right! Then it MUST be something else!'

Mother: 'like what??'

Father: 'a genetic component'

There are a lot of influences that come from the Roman empire period where sexually was a lot more open than it is now. I'm not here to say that's how it happens, but there are a lot smarter people than me writing papers for each argument. If I list an argument, I have no doubt you can rebuttal and then vice versa, but to be honest I'm not saying one is correct. I personally think it's a mixture of both but who knows.

well, 'n there's the fallacy.  parents aren't the only (or even the primary) societal influence that kids receive as they grow up. 

('sides, i think there'd be hells of more people without a specific strong preference (and a lot more same-sex relationships) if we didn't have the society we do today, that encourages people to repress their homo feelings.)

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 05:01:22 AM
There are a lot of influences that come from the Roman empire period where sexually was a lot more open than it is now. I'm not here to say that's how it happens, but there are a lot smarter people than me writing papers for each argument. If I list an argument, I have no doubt you can rebuttal and then vice versa, but to be honest I'm not saying one is correct. I personally think it's a mixture of both but who knows.

yeah, i mean, there are places where same-sex attraction is/was institutionalized, perhaps most famously in ancient greece, where it's totally ok to be gay, long's one of them's a strapping young little number 'n the other one is his creepy old mentor.

Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 05:04:51 AM
well, 'n there's the fallacy.  parents aren't the only (or even the primary) societal influence that kids receive as they grow up. 

('sides, i think there'd be hells of more people without a specific strong preference (and a lot more same-sex relationships) if we didn't have the society we do today, that encourages people to repress their homo feelings.)

Sure! Bisexuals DO have a choice between straight and gay and almost always choose to live life as 'straight'.
The easy way out.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 27, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
Most animals don't need to learn who they should mate with, it just is. Wouldn't it make more sense that sexuality is wired in and not taught?

Exactly. If gender and sexuality were influenced by society then I'd be seeking normalcy conversion therapy. If you can influence one way then you can influence back. And say goodbye to your rights. Societal pressures will also often push individuals away from their instinctive nature to fit in. But this doesn't change their fundamental wiring. Given the right conditions, they will revert to instinct.

Quote from: Tesla on February 27, 2013, 05:15:54 AM
Exactly. If gender and sexuality were influenced by society then I'd be seeking normalcy conversion therapy. If you can influence one way then you can influence back. And say goodbye to your rights. Societal pressures will also often push individuals away from their instinctive nature to fit in. But this doesn't change their fundamental wiring. Given the right conditions, they will revert to instinct.

don't confuse societally influenced with "voluntary".  our social environment isn't the sort of thing that manipulates us consciously, so by the same token, it's not really possible for us to manipulate it in return.  not to mention it's not necessarily the sort of thing that's alterable after a certain point, barring sea changes in environment/perception/both.

Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 05:26:36 AM
don't confuse societally influenced with "voluntary".  our social environment isn't the sort of thing that manipulates us consciously, so by the same token, it's not really possible for us to manipulate it in return.  not to mention it's not necessarily the sort of thing that's alterable after a certain point, barring sea changes in environment/perception/both.

It still doesn't explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF consists ex straight, formerly functional cis men (bio father of several children)/lesbians.

What would be 'the influence' amongst those?

Overidentification with women? A deep rooted neurosis? Self manipulation? Auto suggestion?

Surely not manipulated or influenced into becoming MTF by society in general.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 04:39:33 AM
That hasn't been proven. It could be eventually, but as of now it has not.

If sexual orientation could be proven from birth then I think people would finally be more susceptible to others when they announce that they are whatever they are.

Quote from: Imreallyconfused on February 27, 2013, 05:45:32 AM
If sexual orientation could be proven from birth then I think people would finally be more susceptible to others when they announce that they are whatever they are.

Why do you think it's so interesting they want to find a "gay" gene.?

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 05:49:22 AM
Why do you think it's so interesting they want to find a "gay" gene.?

I think if they really want to find something like that so intently, then there must be a line that would make them more understanding. There is a fine psychological line between curiosity and understanding as well as (in my opinion) the ability to accept what they find.

Quote from: Imreallyconfused on February 27, 2013, 05:53:02 AM
I think if they really want to find something like that so intently, then there must be a line that would make them more understanding. There is a fine psychological line between curiosity and understanding as well as (in my opinion) the ability to accept what they find.

That's what this whole debate is about though. One side believes there is a gay gene and the other does not, it's an essentialist view vs a social constructionist view.

Well I don't think its a gene. I think its more or less whats in your soul. I believe to the depths of my soul that I am a woman at heart. Genes will never be able to prove or disprove that. People need to stop thinking so scientifically and understand people as people, not lab rats.

Quote from: Mellysia on February 27, 2013, 05:58:08 AM
Well I don't think its a gene. I think its more or less whats in your soul. I believe to the depths of my soul that I am a woman at heart. Genes will never be able to prove or disprove that. People need to stop thinking so scientifically and understand people as people, not lab rats.

It's a little obscene to go as far and think that believing there is gay gene to comparing people as lab rats, don't you think? Either way, I don't care what the reason is, I'm happy with myself, but there is nothing wrong with speculating.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 06:00:11 AM
It's a little obscene to go as far and think that believing there is gay gene to comparing people as lab rats, don't you think? Either way, I don't care what the reason is, I'm happy with myself, but there is nothing wrong with speculating.

Yeh I went a bit far off the edge of that one, but I think you got the point I was making. If people believe that their is or isn't a gene, either way its going to get very scientific very fast. Eventually they will do tests and then after that, I don't want to know what kind of weirdness they will attempt. I hate myself for now, but soon hopefully I will be happy just like you.

Quote from: Mellysia on February 27, 2013, 06:02:40 AM
Yeh I went a bit far off the edge of that one, but I think you got the point I was making. If people believe that their is or isn't a gene, either way its going to get very scientific very fast. Eventually they will do tests and then after that, I don't want to know what kind of weirdness they will attempt. I hate myself for now, but soon hopefully I will be happy just like you.

Sure, I can see where you are coming from. Well I'm "happy" with where I am going; I shouldn't say as of now, I'm definitely not yet, not even close, but we will get there

Quote from: TessaM on February 27, 2013, 06:18:03 AM
I think sexuality as well as your sex/gender are inborn. Your environment has an influence however. Why would (as another poster noted) people think of certain women as "hot" and others as "not" for example? Being a flaming homo or being a woman despite what your anatomy tells you is completely ingrained in that brain of yours.

Well your brain doesn't tell you what to think when it comes to your sex/gender. That's all up to how you feel which isn't totally dependent on your brain. The brain has a bit to do with it, but more or less when someone tells you that they are a woman trapped in a man's body, they don't say it was their brain that told them. They normally say deep in their hearts/soul is where the feeling came from.