^ This, but in reverse, is also what it feels like to have a male gender in a female body.

"People are strange when you're a stranger,
Faces look ugly when you're alone.
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted,
Streets are uneven when you're down.

When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain.
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange"

Funny, but this whole conversation made this song pop into my head from possibly one of the greatest poets of our time, Jim Morrison. Jim could sing it so well because he truly knew it. To me, this song pretty much sums up the whole of the human race.

As for dysphoria of anykind, it really doesn't matter what other people see but it does matter 100% how the person sees themselves. People die from anorexia all the time because no matter how thin they are they see themselves as too fat. Bullimia with all the gorging and purging burns up the esophagus and erodes away the teeth because of the constant contact with stomach acids to keep from gaining a few pounds. Why do people have nose jobs, tummy tucks, face lifts, liposuction and so on done? Because they are not satisfied with how they see themselves.

Gender dysphoria? We have the technology to change genders, change it. Plastic surgery, If you aren't satisified with what you see, we have the technology, change it. I am all about letting people feel good and confident about themselves.

Quote from: agfrommd on March 01, 2013, 12:48:15 PM
Can I take one more crack at this? I had so much trouble with this for such a long time, maybe talking about my experience helps.

When I'm in the presence of a bunch of women, whether or not we have anything in common, I feel like I belong. When I'm with a bunch of men, even if we share jobs, interests, etc., I feel like the odd one out. I'm drawn to books and movies about women, don't feel connected to those about men. This is true even if I don't have anything in common with the women there. When I see a woman wearing women's clothes and a female haircut, I think, "that's the way I'd like to look." I don't get that feeling with male clothes. And I feel like my body would be more "right" if it had female features and anatomy.

That's what it feels like having a female "gender" with a male body.

Does this help?

Aaaaah i hate to do this but.... i dont totally feel the same way :/

in all honesty, i have no idea what makes me a boy. i like girl things, i like my body, i like womens clothes, womens hair, i feel comfortable around women, i even wish i was a woman. i look at women and sometimes wish i looked like them. i sometimes wish i was madonna. lol i have no idea what it is.

so no, that's not what it's like to be a male in a female body, not for everyone.

(EDIT: let me make a note, though. i would like a more male body and male features. its just that i dont totally feel wrong with what i have now. so i do agree in some aspects just not totally in others. i have more social dysphoria than physical, and i dont always feel better around men. men are actually kind of intimidating for me )

for me, it was trial and error. i have a big network of queer friends, so i really just let them see me and treat me as a boy, and took a boy's name, and male pronouns, and i felt comfortable. i dont hate my breasts and i don't really relate to most men. but i just feel comfortable being one. i'm just really effeminate and tend to get along better with girls and queer people.

the difference is... i wish i WAS a woman. but i'm just not.

i don't WANT to be a boy, i AM one.

people who dont understand just never had to question their gender. it's comfortable enough for them. i never felt right as a girl. it took me so long to realize because i'm femme, so it wasn't glaringly obvious, but it was always.... off. and i probably never would've figured it out if i hadn't taken the role of a boy.

in all honesty i dont understand gender and i dont know how i can explain why i'm a boy. it's not really something concrete to me, like my interests or clothes or dysphoria. those are secondary. it's just an internal sense of self. it's very subtle.

I'm gay and fairly fem. Well, I figure I must be "andro" in personality because I was always described as butch when I was presenting female can't win either way

It seems a lot of people have trouble wrapping their heads around the concept of being trans and being gay...or otherwise not fitting into the stereotype of the gender you're transitioning to. I'm certain I would be so much more accepted and understood by certain people if I liked women and football and putting up shelves.

I remember being very young, barely into puberty, and reading a little fluff news piece in the paper about a "man who became a woman and then ran off to become a lesbian" - I thought at the time "lolwat? why would you do that? that's crazy, may as well have just stayed a man"

Of course I eventually realised that personality, gender, and orientation are all completely different entities (well for some people, apparently they aren't, but that's how I see it)

As for the original topic....yeah people assume I like women. Even though the vast majority of people I've dated or shown an interest in have been men. I'm in a committed relationship with a man...and still some of my friends think I want to chat about boobs or generally partake in conversations about objectifying women.

People assume I'm going to turn into a body builder just from T shots.

People assume I want to bring my daughter up as a boy -_- this one really annoys me, like anyone in their right mind would wish GID on anybody, let alone their own child. My sister expressed genuine shock when I showed her a pretty new dress I bought for the kidlet - "....you bought that....YOU....bought a DRESS?! WILLINGLY?" - erm yes? xD it's not like the mere presence of dresses offends me, I just don't want to wear them myself

Quote from: secondo on March 01, 2013, 01:46:02 PM

Quote from: agfrommd on March 01, 2013, 12:48:15 PM
Can I take one more crack at this? I had so much trouble with this for such a long time, maybe talking about my experience helps.

When I'm in the presence of a bunch of women, whether or not we have anything in common, I feel like I belong. When I'm with a bunch of men, even if we share jobs, interests, etc., I feel like the odd one out. I'm drawn to books and movies about women, don't feel connected to those about men. This is true even if I don't have anything in common with the women there. When I see a woman wearing women's clothes and a female haircut, I think, "that's the way I'd like to look." I don't get that feeling with male clothes. And I feel like my body would be more "right" if it had female features and anatomy.

That's what it feels like having a female "gender" with a male body.

Does this help?

Aaaaah i hate to do this but.... i dont totally feel the same way :/

in all honesty, i have no idea what makes me a boy. i like girl things, i like my body, i like womens clothes, womens hair, i feel comfortable around women, i even wish i was a woman. i look at women and sometimes wish i looked like them. i sometimes wish i was madonna. lol i have no idea what it is.

so no, that's not what it's like to be a male in a female body, not for everyone.

(EDIT: let me make a note, though. i would like a more male body and male features. its just that i dont totally feel wrong with what i have now. so i do agree in some aspects just not totally in others. i have more social dysphoria than physical, and i dont always feel better around men. men are actually kind of intimidating for me )

for me, it was trial and error. i have a big network of queer friends, so i really just let them see me and treat me as a boy, and took a boy's name, and male pronouns, and i felt comfortable. i dont hate my breasts and i don't really relate to most men. but i just feel comfortable being one. i'm just really effeminate and tend to get along better with girls and queer people.

the difference is... i wish i WAS a woman. but i'm just not.

i don't WANT to be a boy, i AM one.

people who dont understand just never had to question their gender. it's comfortable enough for them. i never felt right as a girl. it took me so long to realize because i'm femme, so it wasn't glaringly obvious, but it was always.... off. and i probably never would've figured it out if i hadn't taken the role of a boy.

in all honesty i dont understand gender and i dont know how i can explain why i'm a boy. it's not really something concrete to me, like my interests or clothes or dysphoria. those are secondary. it's just an internal sense of self. it's very subtle.

Ok. I was trying to follow, but I'm officially lost now. 
I guess everyone's experience is different. 

Quote from: agfrommd on March 01, 2013, 12:48:15 PM
Can I take one more crack at this? I had so much trouble with this for such a long time, maybe talking about my experience helps.

When I'm in the presence of a bunch of women, whether or not we have anything in common, I feel like I belong. When I'm with a bunch of men, even if we share jobs, interests, etc., I feel like the odd one out. I'm drawn to books and movies about women, don't feel connected to those about men. This is true even if I don't have anything in common with the women there. When I see a woman wearing women's clothes and a female haircut, I think, "that's the way I'd like to look." I don't get that feeling with male clothes. And I feel like my body would be more "right" if it had female features and anatomy.

That's what it feels like having a female "gender" with a male body.

Does this help?

Fwiw, this is me.

I just felt huge, huge anxiety around men, but I never thought, "hey, I'm a girl!" I did have an epiphenical moment one night when I realized....I had body hair! OMG WTF?!? Over time, as I shaved and waxed, got earrings, etc I realized...I'm a woman inside a man's body.

secondo, seek help fast. You have real issues if you want to be Madonna.

I don't think anyone can fully understand when it comes to personalities, what defines our gender identities and so on. We are complex beings, we are complicated. We will likely never see answers in our lifetimes. As far as that goes, I don't think anyone can tell us beyond a shadow of a doubt why we are able to think thoughts. But I will say this, the only one who can decide is you.

Maybe try to see a therapist to see if there is anything that could possibly be causing you to feel this way or triggered it off. There is no guarantee but for some it helps.

I have herd that i can't be transgendered because:

I listen to Nu metal, not pop.

I'm only doing it because of my love of breasts.

I'm only doing it because i can't find a guy to sleep with.

I won't be able to handle the higher maintenance genitals of a woman

I'm only doing it for attention.

I'm only doing it for a specific person

I'm wasting my time, money and effort because no one ever fully transitions.

Probably the funniest tho.....you have a couple scars on your legs from a surgery and a work accident, are you really going to be comfortable wearing skirts and shorter shorts that would leave them exposed?
I found that one funny because both scars are old enough that they have faded and tan with the rest of my leg now.

Kari Ann.

Part of the problem is in calling things 'girlie' things.

I'd rather be around women. I just don't like men.

But what precisely are girlie things?

To me menstruating is a girlie thing. Try menstruating if you are in a male form eh.

Power tools, why do they have to be a guy thing?

I realize some things are typically male form aspects. It's not easy NOT having facial hair.

But what about things you can't remove, that can't be added surgically?

I prefer to think of gender as being the intangible portion of what makes us who we are.

Sadly, the only reason I have been conditioned to dress as I do, is because of a piece of anatomy that really only has a very limited function and use. It would be nice if girls came in a type and b type, and boys came in a type and b type, and no one made a fuss over what you were, an a type or a b type beyond there being a need for opposing reproductive organs required for procreation.

The only assumption I know that has been made about me and that pisses me off is that apparently, I'm supposed to have sex with whoever throws a bone my way. Although, I have to say those guys that have asked to "experiment" because they are "curious" do have some balls to even approach me. I have no problem telling them no thanks though. The idea of being someone's "experiment"  disgusts me greatly. They are damn lucky I'm not the type to tell people just how creepy their friend, husband or relative is.

Quote from: Brooke777 on March 01, 2013, 10:19:21 AM
The fear of physical violence was enough to cause me to suppress it. I continued to suppress it for as long as I could. However, my "coping" mechanisms started to fail me. It became either transition, or kill myself.

Brooke, sometimes your experiences mirror my own so closely that it scares me. Quite simply, I am transitioning because I can't drink enough to make the dysphoria recede into the background any more and the anguish of trying to exist in the wrong skin was more than enough to bring me to the brink on more than one occasion.

As for the topic at hand, I tend to find the things that we identify as masculine interests or female interests are social constructions rather than something rooted in our gender identity. There is nothing specifically female about enjoying playing with makeup, the prevalence of straight men in theatre points to that, not to mention how in previous historic eras wigs, skirts, blush and rouge were standard attire for a gentleman. Likewise there is also nothing inherently masculine about fixing cars or enjoying the outdoors. These are merely activities, it's only when viewed through the lens of the dominant culture. Challenging these sorts of gender essentialism is a major aim of third wave feminism and we're all freer for it.

Quote from: AnarchoChloe on March 01, 2013, 04:30:27 PM

As for the topic at hand, I tend to find the things that we identify as masculine interests or female interests are social constructions rather than something rooted in our gender identity. There is nothing specifically female about enjoying playing with makeup, the prevalence of straight men in theatre points to that, not to mention how in previous historic eras wigs, skirts, blush and rouge were standard attire for a gentleman. Likewise there is also nothing inherently masculine about fixing cars or enjoying the outdoors. These are merely activities, it's only when viewed through the lens of the dominant culture. Challenging these sorts of gender essentialism is a major aim of third wave feminism and we're all freer for it.

I agree. In fact, as we're learning in my fashion history class, one of the main reasons women took to fashion was it was one of the only areas in which they could control and express themselves. They weren't allowed to own anything, but they could own as many dresses as they could afford.

And as you say, men's fashion used to be just as elaborate as women's if not more. As far back as antiquity, men were wearing makeup.

I think there are way too many stereotypes.

I have been called a redneck because I have a southern accent and I must hate gays. lesbians, transgendered and so on.

I have been called a sissy because I have long hair, and don't care for the normal things that seem inclusive to male, like fishing, fast cars and so on.

I have been called a womanizer because I play a guitar in various bands and various levels of rock from Slayer to Chuck Berry.

I have been called a Satanist because of, again the guitar and genre of music. But when I pop out Amazing Grace or the Starspangled Banner on the ol' axe it's totally different to them.

I have been called a Christian because I may talk about it.

I've also been called straight and gay. Left wing and right wing. And countless other things.

The only thing that I can say in rock hard stone surity is that when we ass/u/me things.... Ya'll get the gist.

Quote from: AnarchoChloe on March 01, 2013, 04:30:27 PM
Brooke, sometimes your experiences mirror my own so closely that it scares me. Quite simply, I am transitioning because I can't drink enough to make the dysphoria recede into the background any more and the anguish of trying to exist in the wrong skin was more than enough to bring me to the brink on more than one occasion.

My "coping" mechanism was alcohol as well. I actually did not stop drinking like that till I tried to kill myself. After that, the realization of what was going on hit me real hard. That was just over a year ago actually. I hope you have been able to find your way out of it like I did. Life is so much better now than it ever was before.

If you ever want to/need to talk about anything, You are more than welcome to PM me.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on March 01, 2013, 04:55:15 PM


And as you say, men's fashion used to be just as elaborate as women's if not more. As far back as antiquity, men were wearing makeup.

I want to go back to then.  The frock coat, the lacey shirts, the tights/pantaloons, the boots...All of it appeals greatly to me.  I want to run around wearing that.  But I can't because it's expensive and because it's not age-appropriate or even century-appropriate wear.

I'm a guy because I feel like a guy.  Not because of my interests which are androgyne if you had to stick a gender to them.  Now, saying how I feel like a guy is hard to put into words because it's just intrinsic.

Sounds like i have all this to come. only out to a couple of people so far and they dont count as they couldnt care less if i decided to paint myself blue and wear a wonderwoman outfit. They just accept whatever makes you you. Hopeing that everyone is like that. Doubtfull though.

Quote from: agfrommd on March 01, 2013, 12:48:15 PM
Can I take one more crack at this? I had so much trouble with this for such a long time, maybe talking about my experience helps.

When I'm in the presence of a bunch of women, whether or not we have anything in common, I feel like I belong. When I'm with a bunch of men, even if we share jobs, interests, etc., I feel like the odd one out. I'm drawn to books and movies about women, don't feel connected to those about men. This is true even if I don't have anything in common with the women there. When I see a woman wearing women's clothes and a female haircut, I think, "that's the way I'd like to look." I don't get that feeling with male clothes. And I feel like my body would be more "right" if it had female features and anatomy.

That's what it feels like having a female "gender" with a male body.

Does this help?

This is a very good description of how I feel, I can be around a group of men who love sci-fi & video games I feel like the odd one out, like an imposter.
when i'm around a group of women who I have nothing in common with I feel comfortable, like i'm "one of the girls"

I read lot's of sci-fi, in fact I have around 150 books in my collection & the 2 that resonate most with me are the Rama series & Moving Mars, Rama 2's main character who the books follow for the next few books is Nicole Des Jardin a woman stranded on the giant ship. Moving Mars is told from a womans point of view.
Having a female perspective or main character is extremely rare in Sci-fi books, this may explain why I've fond it harder to read even my favourite books since coming out

Quote from: Jayne on March 02, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
This is a very good description of how I feel, I can be around a group of men who love sci-fi & video games I feel like the odd one out, like an imposter.
when i'm around a group of women who I have nothing in common with I feel comfortable, like i'm "one of the girls"

I read lot's of sci-fi, in fact I have around 150 books in my collection & the 2 that resonate most with me are the Rama series & Moving Mars, Rama 2's main character who the books follow for the next few books is Nicole Des Jardin a woman stranded on the giant ship. Moving Mars is told from a womans point of view.
Having a female perspective or main character is extremely rare in Sci-fi books, this may explain why I've fond it harder to read even my favourite books since coming out

Interesting you say this, Jayne. I used to read only science fiction. Somewhere around ten years ago, long before I thought I might be trans, my mother lent me a book by one of her friends about her experiences as a wife and mother.

Totally alien to my own experience, but somehow I devoured it. I couldn't get enough, and I went right to the local library and started getting books out told from the point of view of women. It's like some kind of switch was turned on by reading that one book.

I can't read SciFi any more. I don't find it as interesting as I do my women's fiction.

Quote from: agfrommd on March 02, 2013, 05:33:00 PM
Interesting you say this, Jayne. I used to read only science fiction. Somewhere around ten years ago, long before I thought I might be trans, my mother lent me a book by one of her friends about her experiences as a wife and mother.

Totally alien to my own experience, but somehow I devoured it. I couldn't get enough, and I went right to the local library and started getting books out told from the point of view of women. It's like some kind of switch was turned on by reading that one book.

I can't read SciFi any more. I don't find it as interesting as I do my women's fiction.

I do lament my inability to get into my books nowdays so maybe I need to look to different genres, I used to read War of the Worlds every month or two but haven't read it for many months now & have often read Star Wars/Trek books in a day or two, i've tried reading several of my favourite books recently & get bored after a chapter or two, I just thought it was my depression causing this but maybe it isn't.

If you like good scifi, you should try Robert Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil." It's about an elderly industrialist who decides that in order to avoid dying he will have his brain implanted into a younger body. The rub is that he has a rare blood disorder that limits his donor pool considerably so has to wait until one of the small pool dies in order to get their body. After setting this program in motion he slips into a coma. One night while leaving the hospital after visiting him his secretary is attacked and killed and *surprise* her body is a match for him. The industrialist awakens in a young  body that is not at all what he expected, first because of the gender and second because it belonged to a good friend of his. Luckily it appears some shred of his former secretary's personality lingers on and she instructs him in all the little bits of womanhood that most natal-fems take for granted and he begins to accept his new life.

I haven't read it since high school, but I absolutely swooned over this book. It may be what you need to get back in the reading groove. I loved Nicole Des Jardin's character in the Rama series, she and the Shakespeare robots were stellar. I'll try to think of others that have good female lead characters, I know there are a ton on my shelves that I'm just not thinking of right now.