We've just had a new member of staff start today... and it occurred to me that whilst I came out to my colleagues in December, my boss & I haven't discussed whether we'll disclose to any new staff members.

I don't want to disclose to new staff. I plan to go completely stealth so I don't want anyone else told my personal history. I made this abundantly clear in my coming-out letter in December.

Problem is, we've had a few freelancers work with us since then and every single one has heard that I'm trans before I've even spoken to them. So my colleagues are definitely telling them without my consent. I approached my boss this evening to tell him that I'm worried that my colleagues are blabbing behind my back.

He said <trigger> "I don't see what the problem is! Obviously people are going to ask questions because you still look like a woman!" </trigger>

I must admit that brought tears to my eyes - what a horrible thing to say to someone with GD. Also he thinks it's perfectly acceptable for people to reveal my trans status behind my back because apparently they're being positive about me when they do so.

Frankly, I don't care how positive they're being. By disclosing my trans status without my consent they're making it very difficult for me to go stealth. I want to have people in my work environment who don't know my history so that I can fully experience RLE and I find it hugely upsetting that I'm being prevented from doing so by my blabbermouth colleagues. I work in a very incestuous industry and I have a rather unique name so I made it clear that they had to keep my status to themselves.

Ugh. What do I do?

I could be wrong, but I don't think they are "trying" to stab you in the back.  Someone new came is and obviously had questions.  They tried to explain the situation to the new person.

It might be wrong, but I don't think they were trying to hurt you.

Okay, I've been in this position. I felt like an underdog celebrity, but people would tell new hires at Valeo about me, even 2 years after I came out. People are going to talk and somehow, your trans status may come up, whether accidentally or deliberately. You may be the first trans person many people ever meet. So don't let fear ruin your life. You're transitioning. These people have no idea how hard it is to do that. Show them that it is the best thing for you. Hold your head high and if they ask questions, take the opportunity to educate them. It is nothing to be ashamed of and it certainly doesn't define you.

That way, you're killing them with kindness. And your Boss is an insensitive jerk who should look up the EEOC rules regarding transgender rights.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 04, 2013, 01:16:24 PM
I could be wrong, but I don't think they are "trying" to stab you in the back.  Someone new came is and obviously had questions.  They tried to explain the situation to the new person.

It might be wrong, but I don't think they were trying to hurt you.

I don't think you're wrong at all. My colleagues (and the freelancers) have almost all been very kind, accepting and positive. Many of them have told me how brave they think I am for transitioning. I'm grateful for that. So I'm sure their intentions are honourable.

But they're disclosing my trans status to other people despite the fact that I said that my disclosure is for their eyes only and is not to be discussed with anyone else. I only told them because I've worked with them for six years and I'm transitioning on the job. But I'm a very private person in a very public industry and if this carries on, the only way I'll ever be able to go stealth is if I change careers completely, or emigrate.

I don't think they realise the potential harm they're doing - both to my career and my personal safety - by outing me to other people without my knowledge or consent. And telling our freelancers - who also work for most of the other companies in our industry - could make it difficult for me to get hired if they can't resist telling everyone the juicy secret they know about this particular interviewee.

Quote from: Keaira on March 04, 2013, 01:57:00 PM
Okay, I've been in this position. I felt like an underdog celebrity, but people would tell new hires at Valeo about me, even 2 years after I came out. People are going to talk and somehow, your trans status may come up, whether accidentally or deliberately. You may be the first trans person many people ever meet. So don't let fear ruin your life. You're transitioning. These people have no idea how hard it is to do that. Show them that it is the best thing for you. Hold your head high and if they ask questions, take the opportunity to educate them. It is nothing to be ashamed of and it certainly doesn't define you.

That way, you're killing them with kindness. And your Boss is an insensitive jerk who should look up the EEOC rules regarding transgender rights.

Yeah, I was following your story at Valeo; my comments about the way they treated you should probably be censored.

My boss did suggest that I take the initiative and approach new hires before the gossip mill gets to them. But I want to be stealth with new people; I don't want to say: "Hi, I'm the IT guy, and I'm transsexual!!!1!!!". I just want a couple of people who don't treat me like the 'freak of the week'.

He said that people are going to ask questions whilst I look & sound unconvincing. I understand that, but they need to ask me those questions. Other people aren't entitled to out me without my consent.

You're right that my boss can be insensitive. The irony is that he's just paid for us all to go through a very expensive Equality workshop specifically because I'm both trans and disabled. I even quoted the relevant legislation to him tonight and implored him to contact our Equality expert to get her take on it - but he just laughed off my arguments.

It is probably going to sound bad if your co-worker answers the question with, Sorry, I'm not allowed to talk about it, ask (your name) personally.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 04, 2013, 12:41:57 PM
Ugh. What do I do?

Transition medically. Change jobs. Move someplace else.

That is the only way to solve problems like this.  If that is not possible - you are going to have to put up with stuff like this, unfortunately.  At least until you medically transition and pass to new people without question.

I am very sorry you had a triggering experience, but in reality - if you don't pass but want others to rightly ID you and treat you as male, people are going to have to have it explained them. It is terrible, but trans people are still a spectacle to many.  Especially if you worked there before. Gossip is going to happen. People suck, but gossip is actually a way people deal with things they have to repress in serious work situations.  Don't create yourself as that situation.

Honestly, I think a lot of times we (myself included, in the past) flash the victim card and expect people to react correctly instantly. It is not going to happen, and it just make things more awkward.  You really don't want to the sensitive topic that people tiptoe around, right? Be understanding, and hang in there. It will get better.  Show them trans people are normal - not politically correct time bombs they can't approach for fear of reprisal. 

Sorry if this sounds harsh. I am speaking from experience. I tried to be male at a job before I passed all the time, and it was so uncomfortable I left it. I wish I had just rolled with it and waited until there was no doubt I looked male to enforce things.

Quote from: spacerace on March 04, 2013, 03:57:30 PM
Transition medically. Change jobs. Move someplace else.

That is the only way to solve problems like this.  If that is not possible - you are going to have to put up with stuff like this, unfortunately.  At least until you medically transition and pass to new people without question.

This.  And from my experience it's impossible to be completely stealth at a workplace you transitioned at, even more so in the town you transitioned in, depending on size. There's always going to be someone who remembers you/knows about you/has heard of you and you'll never be fully stealth and this is coming from someone who has is over two years transitioned (medically and socially) at my job. 

Basically the only option is to get a new job in a new town (if you can change towns) if you want to be completely stealth.  People talk, even if you don't want them to they will, either coworkers who knew you before, or customers who remember you from before your transition.  New hires will ask questions and be confused, possibly even figure things out themselves if say a coworker from before your transition calls you she/girl/etc. 

Quote from: spacerace on March 04, 2013, 03:57:30 PM
Transition medically. Change jobs. Move someplace else.

That is the only way to solve problems like this.  If that is not possible - you are going to have to put up with stuff like this, unfortunately.  At least until you medically transition and pass to new people without question.

I fully agree with Spacerace.

There is no stealth until you pass. Humans are naturally nosy and people are going to gossip. He could have shown more tact in the way he approached you but it sounds like he is just a realist (cis people genuinely don't get it usually). It sucks, I know it does. Been there, done that. Once you start medical transition it will get better over time.

As far as RLE it is hard anywhere when you don't pass. It's just about impossible to be treated a certain way when you look another way. Sometimes when you don't pass masculine names and pronouns will out you unintentionally. How? Because people don't feel comfortable asking you to your face, so they go behind your back to another coworker and ask, "what is the deal with so and so". That is usually how it happens. People aren't racing up to the newest employee to tell "the big secret"...they are approached about it.

I'm a little confused about your situation. If people are reading you as female but you ask them to use male pronouns and/or you have a male name--is this the case?--then you cannot be stealth in any case. Even if you are still going by female pronouns and name, I don't see how you can keep people from talking. I can see that it's maddening to be outed to people who haven't even met you, but, honestly, you cannot control what people say. You can ask your boss to tell people to keep a lid on it, but that doesn't mean that they will.

I am in a situation that can be quite uncomfortable for me because I still teach at the school where I transitioned. The staff and my colleagues seem to be pretty discreet about it all--as far as they seem to be concerned, I'm just me--but there's always a chance that someone will mention it to someone who doesn't know, and I'll be asked about my past. I've been consistently read as male for...let's see, nearly four years. I came out at work only months before I started "passing" consistently. Even after all of that time, I know that the subject might still come up unexpectedly.

I don't work in a small industry as you do, so I know that our situations are not the same. But I try to be philosophical about my situation, and I figure that when sufficient time goes by, it will not matter anymore. I keep telling myself this, and I grind my teeth occasionally, but I know that I cannot control other people's conversations. It sucks, but there it is.

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Quote from: spacerace on March 04, 2013, 03:57:30 PM
Transition medically. Change jobs. Move someplace else.

This is what I would do in the ideal world, but of course the economy is in the toilet at the moment. I currently have a well-paid job in a company that is generally supportive so I can't really afford to jeopardise that at the moment.

There's also the complication that I have two dependant children, both in High School. I can't disrupt their lives by moving them away, and I can't remove myself from their lives either. Sheesh. Wish I'd transitioned at 19 like I should have. It would've been a lot less complicated.

Quote from: Simon on March 05, 2013, 01:32:37 AM
There is no stealth until you pass. Humans are naturally nosy and people are going to gossip. He could have shown more tact in the way he approached you but it sounds like he is just a realist (cis people genuinely don't get it usually). It sucks, I know it does. Been there, done that. Once you start medical transition it will get better over time.

I know people are like to gossip, but we have the Equality Act that makes it illegal to do so if it creates a hostile environment. And having my colleagues constantly telling my history to everyone who walks in the door demeans my dignity and it creates a hostile environment in which I'm not allowed to simply 'be me'. You're right that my boss doesn't get it. When I told him this morning that I'm concerned about my future career prospects and my personal safety if I go for an interview somewhere and a freelancer who knew me before transition tells them my history, he actually laughed in my face. He has no idea why that would even be an issue.

Quote from: Arch on March 05, 2013, 01:56:07 AM
I'm a little confused about your situation. If people are reading you as female but you ask them to use male pronouns and/or you have a male name--is this the case?--then you cannot be stealth in any case. Even if you are still going by female pronouns and name, I don't see how you can keep people from talking. I can see that it's maddening to be outed to people who haven't even met you, but, honestly, you cannot control what people say. You can ask your boss to tell people to keep a lid on it, but that doesn't mean that they will.

I am in a situation that can be quite uncomfortable for me because I still teach at the school where I transitioned. The staff and my colleagues seem to be pretty discreet about it all--as far as they seem to be concerned, I'm just me--but there's always a chance that someone will mention it to someone who doesn't know, and I'll be asked about my past. I've been consistently read as male for...let's see, nearly four years. I came out at work only months before I started "passing" consistently. Even after all of that time, I know that the subject might still come up unexpectedly.

I don't work in a small industry as you do, so I know that our situations are not the same. But I try to be philosophical about my situation, and I figure that when sufficient time goes by, it will not matter anymore. I keep telling myself this, and I grind my teeth occasionally, but I know that I cannot control other people's conversations. It sucks, but there it is.

I started presenting as male last summer, and I changed my name in December. I came out to my colleagues over the Xmas break. I've done everything humanly possible to transition socially so now I'm just waiting for the NHS to pull its finger out so I can start doing the medical stuff. I want to be fully stealth in the future; I understand that it isn't possible now but I just don't want my history to be discussed with new people who join our business. Drawing a line in the sand is the only way I can have any control over the number of people who know my past.

I know there will come a point where it shouldn't matter any more, but everyone in my industry knows everyone else so I have this horrible feeling that my history will just follow me around wherever I go. I spent my whole life feeling like a fraud because I had to pretend to be female; I don't want that feeling to continue by knowing that everyone around thinks I'm pretending to be male.

Once you've finished with the NHS you won't be pretending to be anything, you'll just be yourself.

I don't know quite what to suggest about your current situation, with the job market being the way it is at the moment the chance of finding a new job is slim & as you have children i'm sure you don't want to rock the boat to much with your employer.
is your boss at the very top of the pecking order? Would taking it higher up improve things or make them worse?

I had lots of problems with my last employer after coming out, I told my employer that I would switch to gender neutral clothes gradually & the only obvious thing would be my painted nails as I was going through gallons of nail varnish remover trying to keep things hidden.
It got to the point that when they announced upcoming redundancies I was ready to jump because i'd had enough, the job was terrible, the pay was worse & i'd been given the heads up by a few people who were really good to me that i'd be the first in line to go, I was fortunate that I don't have kids to support, that would have seriously changed things for me.

Whatever happens I wish you the best of luck
Jayne

Seems like this is whats happening:

The new workers are reading you as female and your old coworkesr (trying to be helpful) are saying "no he's a guy"  or "no he's having a sex change" or whatever people say. 

So if you are getting read consistently as female, there really isnt anything you can do other than bide your time.

also, you do not have control over what someone says about you. believe me, the harder you fight to force someone to keep a secret, the more they want to blabber about it.

Unless you have a decent amout of testosterone in your system, its going to be very difficult to present as male, and there is no way around that.

Quote from: Jayne on March 05, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
Once you've finished with the NHS you won't be pretending to be anything, you'll just be yourself.

Yup, I know that - that's why I want to go stealth. But it's a question of perception and in my industry, it's possible that my history will follow me everywhere I go so I don't want to be perceived as being different.

Quote from: Jayne on March 05, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
is your boss at the very top of the pecking order? Would taking it higher up improve things or make them worse?

He's the MD. I work for a small company (about 20 staff) so I've been dealing with the MD, Chairman and all the other Board members throughout my transition.

I had another meeting this morning where the MD tried to beat his chest at me. The Chairman was in the room at the time and he helped calm things down a bit by sympathising with what I had to say. He did seem to take note when I said that my complaint falls under our Equality policy as harassment, so maybe there is some hope. Unfortunately the MD isn't the most tactful guy in the world.

Quote from: Jayne on March 05, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
I had lots of problems with my last employer after coming out, I told my employer that I would switch to gender neutral clothes gradually & the only obvious thing would be my painted nails as I was going through gallons of nail varnish remover trying to keep things hidden.
It got to the point that when they announced upcoming redundancies I was ready to jump because i'd had enough, the job was terrible, the pay was worse & i'd been given the heads up by a few people who were really good to me that i'd be the first in line to go, I was fortunate that I don't have kids to support, that would have seriously changed things for me.

I tried to leave here last year because I'd had enough of their particular brand of nonsense and I wanted to try a new variety. Unfortunately that would've meant presenting as female (because who wants to hire a transsexual in mid-transition, anyway?) and my dysphoria was so bad that I simply couldn't do it. So I cancelled the job interviews I'd lined up and I decided to suck it up & stay here through my transition. I hope to leave when I'm done, if the economy has picked up by then.

Quote from: Jayne on March 05, 2013, 07:06:16 AM
Whatever happens I wish you the best of luck

Thanks Jayne - you too!

Quote from: chuck on March 05, 2013, 07:10:36 AM
Seems like this is whats happening:

The new workers are reading you as female and your old coworkesr (trying to be helpful) are saying "no he's a guy"  or "no he's having a sex change" or whatever people say. 

So if you are getting read consistently as female, there really isnt anything you can do other than bide your time.

also, you do not have control over what someone says about you. believe me, the harder you fight to force someone to keep a secret, the more they want to blabber about it.

Unless you have a decent amout of testosterone in your system, its going to be very difficult to present as male, and there is no way around that.

I pointed out to my boss this morning that the Equality Act (and the workshop we did a few weeks ago) made it clear that there are certain subjects that are Not Acceptable within a workplace, because they will constitute harassment. This is one of the ones that is covered. So whilst people may be naturally curious and may want to gossip about me, the law (technically) prevents them from doing so.

That's why I mentioned it to my boss: I've made it clear that I don't want new hires to be told my history, and I've pointed out the part of our company policy (and the law of the land) that applies.

My bosses have all agreed that new hires won't be told my history. Now I just need to wait & see what happens.

Well your boss is kind of an ass to laugh in your face. I had a similar issue at a job when I wasn't passing too well yet. Though I had just started, so no one 'knew' I was trans, but my supervisor was clearly uncomfortable around me. She had assumed I was female until the boss corrected her and I don't think she knew I was trans. I think she just thought there was something wrong with me that I looked so young and feminine.

Anyway, I could clearly tell who I passed to and who I didn't. Because those I didn't pass to had no idea how to address me and acted really awkward.
Especially the guys at the loading dock. I would greet them and stuff and then I could hear them talking about me. But they didn't think I was female. They thought there was something 'wrong' with me. I really came off like a pussy because I still looked and sounded so young and feminine (for a guy). Anyway, I'm sure people were talking about me trying to figure me out. There's not really a lot of awareness around here, so I doubt they pegged me as trans. They just knew something was 'wrong' with me.

And that was with all my paperwork changed, no one knowing I was trans, and passing a lot of the time. I actually thought I passed better until I started that job. Like others have pointed out, if you're confusing people, they're going to talk. Do you really think it will be any better if your co workers say nothing when asked? I think I almost would have preferred people knowing I was trans to what I think they thought. <shudder> I was coming off like a hormonal reject or something. A guy who had lost the genetic lottery and was doomed to never get any.

I clearly didn't fully understand your situation. I'm a little (okay, a lot) embarrassed that I forgot about your nationality and the Equality Act. It seems to me that probably some of this stuff violates the Act and some doesn't. In any event, if you brought that up to your boss and he is still behaving like a jerk, then the higher-ups need to take over.

But you will still have to put up with other people's confusion. And some of the talking-behind-your-back probably qualifies as confusion. Let's say I am early in my transition and three people are standing around--two established colleagues and one new instructor. I am nowhere to be seen. An established colleague asks another established colleague, "What classes is Arch teaching this term?" I'm not around to correct him, so he says, "She's teaching X class." The first person says, "Don't you mean 'he'?" The second person says, "No, she. What are you talking about? Oh, yeah, I forgot." The new person gets confused and asks for clarification. And so forth.

Stuff like that happens all the time to trans people in the workplace, and I don't know whether you can reasonably call it a violation. I'm inclined to say that it isn't. It's just one of the sucky aspects of transitioning on the job.

However, it sounds like you are reporting other types of behavior that do violate the Act, and your boss definitely needs to get in line. He sets the tone for his subordinates. You (or he) still can't fully control them, so maybe the best you can hope for is to minimize the damage.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on March 05, 2013, 06:41:04 AM
I know there will come a point where it shouldn't matter any more, but everyone in my industry knows everyone else so I have this horrible feeling that my history will just follow me around wherever I go. I spent my whole life feeling like a fraud because I had to pretend to be female; I don't want that feeling to continue by knowing that everyone around thinks I'm pretending to be male.

Look, dude -  the bigger deal you make about this with others and enforcing it, with talking to your boss and getting angry and indignant - the more people ARE going to remember.  It is going to backfire. 

Play it cool. Let it roll off your back. Seriously - you just are making things more difficult on yourself by stomping around about it.  Then, you will be the angry difficult transgender person that everyone will want to avoid, instead of quietly slipping into your new identity over time.

I hope you will consider just relaxing about this. You want things to be better in the future right?  All flipping out at work about this will do is cause you stress, make people avoid you, and cause more gossip. You can't muzzle people, but you can win them over.

Speaking from experience here. HR, Management, the Managing Director himself knew about me and learned later on about the EEOC rulings about transgender discrimination and harassment after I presented them to HR. While someone's gender status was then known to be off limits, people can and will talk. People can, even with the best intentions, slip up. My Daughter's own boyfriend outed me by accident because he works with a woman I worked with who was quite possibly the omly person at Valeo who didnt know about my status. The morning after she found out was very awkward for her. But rather than let it bother me, I took time out for her to see if she had any question. She was more embarassed about it than I was.

Quote from: spacerace on March 05, 2013, 03:31:13 PM
Look, dude -  the bigger deal you make about this with others and enforcing it, with talking to your boss and getting angry and indignant - the more people ARE going to remember.  It is going to backfire. 

Play it cool. Let it roll off your back. Seriously - you just are making things more difficult on yourself by stomping around about it.  Then, you will be the angry difficult transgender person that everyone will want to avoid, instead of quietly slipping into your new identity over time.

I hope you will consider just relaxing about this. You want things to be better in the future right?  All flipping out at work about this will do is cause you stress, make people avoid you, and cause more gossip. You can't muzzle people, but you can win them over.

So yeah, that was pretty much the most awesome man advice ever. If I knew how to rep you, I would.