I'm asking the following questions for selfish reasons, as I'm trying to work out which of these two camps I belong to. It's possible that these questions may come across as controversial, but neither of them is aimed at any one person or group and they are asked with the best intentions. I'm sure there are more scenarios that I haven't thought of, so please share if any come to mind.

1) Is it the gender incongruence that you find causes you the most grief, where you just want to make it stop? If so, and if it were possible, would you be happy to have your perceived gender realigned to match your biological body?

2) Or, is it the case that it is not the gender dysphoria that bothers you so much, but rather the fact that you're a male, say, who wants to be seen as female? That is, you want your physical presence to match your perceived gender. And if so, how are we to ever know that our minds are not deceiving us in some way; that it's not some cognitive misfiring?             

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I'm asking the following questions for selfish reasons, as I'm trying to work out which of these two camps I belong to. It's possible that these questions may come across as controversial, but neither of them is aimed at any one person or group and they are asked with the best intentions. I'm sure there are more scenarios that I haven't thought of, so please share if any come to mind.

I've seen a thread like this one a few months ago, and from what I remember most people said that they would rather change their body to match their gender.

It went like this...

Blue Pill- Change your body to match your mind.

Red Pill- Change your gender to match your sex.

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1) Is it the gender incongruence that you find causes you the most grief, where you just want to make it stop? If so, and if it were possible, would you be happy to have your perceived gender realigned to match your biological body?

To have ones gender changed to match their body would effectively be like erasing said person and replacing hem with someone else. Internal gender is a fundamental part of who we are and how we interact with the world: to put it another way, gender is not purely social but also inherently biological. (Read The Whipping Girl by Julia Serrano, it explained so much for me)

In short...no. It would be like never existing or being deleted.

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2) Or, is it the case that it is not the gender dysphoria that bothers you so much, but rather the fact that you're a male, say, who wants to be seen as female?

Urrrm...Gender dysphoria isn't just a physical thing, it's also a social thing.

For example I don't like certain parts of my body...but I don't hate my genitals. This is the physical side of dysphoria.

I don't  like being treated like a male by other males and females because I feel like I'm being judged before they even know me just because of my gender. Because I can't act in a feminine way without being judged negatively (mostly by guys), I pretend as I have since high school. This is social dysphoria.

Here is the current definition of gender dysphoria according to the dsm V

"These are the proposed criteria for adults and teenagers for the upcoming DSM-V.

A. A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2 or more of the following indicators:

A marked incongruence between one's experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

A strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one's experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender)

A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender)

A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender)

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability"

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...how are we to ever know that our minds are not deceiving us in some way; that it's not some cognitive misfiring?         

1. Transgender people have existed in the past and have been documented to have existed in many different cultures under many different names.

2. There are a significant amount of transgender people, so far we don't know the exact number (due to statistical limitations).

3. If effeminate guys and tomboy girls exist, why can't we? We're not very much different than other people who are gender variant; we just feel it much more strongly.

The next question that logically follows after the first is, "how do I know that I'm transgender and not just crazy?"

This question is totally subjective and totally up to you. Only you can decipher your own experiences. If you feel that your life would be better living as the opposite sex, then you probably are transgender (assuming no other underlying issues are affecting your judgement).

Quote from: Sky-Blue on March 05, 2013, 10:10:35 PM

To have ones gender changed to match their body would effectively be like erasing said person and replacing hem with someone else... gender is not purely social but also inherently biological... It would be like never existing or being deleted.

I don't share the belief that by altering your gender you'd effectivley have your personality "deleted" as though you'd "never existed".

What psychological gender traits do you possess that you consider to be exclusively female?

QuoteUrrrm...Gender dysphoria isn't just a physical thing, it's also a social thing.

For example I don't like certain parts of my body...but I don't hate my genitals. This is the physical side of dysphoria.
I can't act in a feminine way without being judged negatively (mostly by guys), I pretend as I have since high school. This is social dysphoria.

Actually, they are both examples of psychological gender dysphoria. In fact, gender dysphoria by definition is all psychological. I understand that brain chemistry and therefore brain states are physical, but something quite specific is meant when we refer to someone's psychological state, as distinct from their physical state. Our knowledge of the brain is still in very early stages. Neuroscience is still in its infancy and there really is so little that is understood about how the brain functions. People will pull out papers on the biology of gender that point to proclivities and tendencies of the sexes, but really there's no conclusive evidence yet that male and female brains differ in fundamental ways. And even if it were proven tomorrow that gender is a complete social construct, why should that matter to someone who wants to live as a woman?

I'm aware of the DSMV definitions. However, what do these guidelines tell me about my own brain state?

For example, consider my thread question that you rephrased more bluntly than I:

How do I know that I'm transgender and not just crazy?

Your response is that such a decision is determined by subjective experience, adding that if you meet certain self-reporting criteria you are "probably" transgendered. You then conclude with the caveat, "assuming no other underlying issues are affecting your judgement". Well, how can anyone really know that; how can anyone be expected to disentangle such a massive cognitive knot?

This is where I have arrived on my transgendered "journey". And from what I've seen in this and other forums, many other people have the same obsessive doubts. I have a very strong "desire" (another vague term) to be female, but I am also very wary of my own psychology.

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I don't share the belief that by altering your gender you'd effectivley have your personality "deleted" as though you'd "never existed".

What gender traits do you possess that you consider to be exclusively female?

It's impossible to untangle male and female traits because it is not possible to isolate them as controlled variables.

For example (an example on social influence)...

If I had lived my life over again and had not been transgender, but in fact cisgender, I would not be the same person. The same would apply to a cisgender person living their life as the opposite sex they were born as.

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Actually, they are both examples of psychological gender dysphoria. In fact, gender dysphoria by definition is all psychological.

True, just as a banana is a fruit, and so is a pineapple; but one grows on a tree and the other grows on the ground. It's all just a matter of category.

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Our knowledge of the brain is still in very early stages. Neuroscience is still in its infancy and there really is so little that is understood about how the brain functions. People will pull out papers on the biology of gender that point to proclivities and tendencies of the sexes, but really there's no conclusive evidence yet that male and female brains differ in fundamental ways.

It depends on what you define as conclusive evidence. From what I have read in college textbooks, it seems that there are a fair few differences between how male and female brains perceive/interact with reality. It's just the grey areas where male brains look similar to female brains (and vice versa) that screws up the research.

Behavioral differences in both sexes are more obvious in the realm of hormones.

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And even if it were proven tomorrow that gender is a complete social construct, why should that matter to someone who wants to live as a woman?

It shouldn't, but because most of society is still under evolved they rely on their old tribal instincts. Thus different = bad.

Also, even if transsexuality and ->-bleeped-<- was created through nurture as opposed to nature, it is still just as immutable as if it were created in "nature" (genetically, etc). The whole nature vs nurture argument is merely a false dichotomy and a red herring meant to distract and control.

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Your response is that such a decision is determined by subjective experience, adding that if you meet certain self-reporting criteria you are "probably" transgendered. You then conclude with the caveat, "assuming no other underlying issues are affecting your judgement". Well, how can anyone really know that; how can anyone be expected to disentangle such a massive cognitive knot?

How do I know that I'm not just a brain in a jar experiencing a simulated reality? I don't know, and I may never know because it is out of the possibility of experience and therefore impossible to answer.

It's the difference between living life and wasting your whole life contemplating things that you may never understand. Sometimes you just have to accept that some things don't have answers or may never be answered in the way in which you find satisfactory. Or we can just judge a subjective situation by what we know rather than trying to blindly guess what number each variable could be.

Yes, "Self reporting criteria" is all we can go by. There is no objective test; the only thing a therapist can do is make the subjective experiences slightly more objective.

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This is where I have arrived on my transgendered "journey". And from what I've seen in this and other forums, many other people have the same obsessive doubts. I have a very strong "desire" (another vague term) to be female, but I am also very wary of my own psychology.

Yes, and everyone has to discover themselves on their own. There are psychological problems that can make you think and do things that you normally wouldn't; I have first hand experience with that (of which I won't go into detail). The simplest of these problems happens to be the least obvious, depression.

I had a long phase full of doubt myself, but I had to sort it out; and only I could do that because no one else has had my experiences, nor could they re-play these things over and over again. I still have doubts, but they are not irrational doubts.

If you can quell the voices in your head that tell you...

-I will always
-I will never
-I can't be x because of y (there are more than one variable in causation)

These are examples of black and white thinking. Write down your doubts and ask yourself, "are these phrases black and white?". If they are, they are irrational. Effects are rarely only caused by one thing, nor are they always caused by one/multiple thing(s) at one time.

Just my two cents...

-Skye

Quote from: Sarah7 on March 06, 2013, 01:44:22 AM
I don't particularly get on with most of the language you are using (I am a "biological female" regardless of my birth assigned sex, given that I am, you know, biological and female. Like, duh. And gender has never been of much use to me.). But essentially you're just asking if I could have chosen to have my transsexualism "cured" would I have?

Sure. Also I would have really liked to turn invisible and fly, while we are talking about things that aren't possible. I was suicidal pre-transition. So... It doesn't really matter if the results destroyed my personality or not. And in a lot of ways, by transitioning I have destroyed my prior identity...

What does any of that have to do with whether or not I have cognitive misfirings? I'm pretty sure there were some pretty significant cognitive misfirings, otherwise I wouldn't have been in pain.

So much angst is expended on whether folks are "real" or not. I've always found that such an irrelevant question. "How do you make your life suck less?" tends to be my focus. But then I've lived with a chronic pain condition for 12 years. So harm reduction is kind of second nature. (Alternatively "How do I make my life more awesome?" works if you're one of those obnoxious glass-half-full persons.)

Your interpretation of my questions misses the mark, but thanks for your input. Clearly you're more emotionally stable since the transition.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on March 06, 2013, 12:59:53 AM

It's impossible to untangle male and female traits

If I had lived my life over again and had not been transgender... I would not be the same person.

Just as a banana is a fruit, and so is a pineapple; but one grows on a tree and the other grows on the ground.

It depends on what you define as conclusive evidence

The whole nature vs nurture argument is merely a false dichotomy and a red herring meant to distract and control

How do I know that I'm not just a brain in a jar experiencing a simulated reality?... impossible to answer

Sometimes you just have to accept that some things don't have answers...

Yes, "Self reporting criteria" is all we can go by. There is no objective test...

I still have doubts, but they are not irrational doubts

Write down your doubts and ask yourself, "are these phrases black and white?"

Thanks.

So basically the question is:  Change the mind or change the body?

My instincts tell me not to mess with my mind too much, because I want to continue to be me.  Even if it's not quite like being deleted, a gender change is still a pretty drastic, invasive change.

Looking at the mind and body in terms of complexity and information content leads me to the same result.  The mind is too big and complex to make big changes like that.

The exception is when the problem is caused by something about the mind that actually is relatively simple to change.  Hence...

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on March 05, 2013, 07:58:06 PM
And if so, how are we to ever know that our minds are not deceiving us in some way; that it's not some cognitive misfiring?           

Presumably a therapist who knows about gender would know what to look for and try to rule out that sort of thing.  My understanding is that most people who have transitioned are still glad they did, and therefore were apparently not deceiving themselves.

Quote from: BlueSloth on March 06, 2013, 06:00:41 AM
My instincts tell me not to mess with my mind too much, because I want to continue to be me... The mind is too big and complex to make big changes like that.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that this kind of change is possible using behaviour modification over a long period; what do you think would change if your gender was altered -- what do you think would be missed/gained?

QuoteMy understanding is that most people who have transitioned are still glad they did, and therefore were apparently not deceiving themselves.

I do have some thoughts on this, but I sense that it would not be prudent on my part to share them here.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on March 05, 2013, 07:58:06 PM
I'm asking the following questions for selfish reasons, as I'm trying to work out which of these two camps I belong to. It's possible that these questions may come across as controversial, but neither of them is aimed at any one person or group and they are asked with the best intentions. I'm sure there are more scenarios that I haven't thought of, so please share if any come to mind.

1) Is it the gender incongruence that you find causes you the most grief, where you just want to make it stop? If so, and if it were possible, would you be happy to have your perceived gender realigned to match your biological body?

2) Or, is it the case that it is not the gender dysphoria that bothers you so much, but rather the fact that you're a male, say, who wants to be seen as female? That is, you want your physical presence to match your perceived gender. And if so, how are we to ever know that our minds are not deceiving us in some way; that it's not some cognitive misfiring?           

These evolved over time for me. At first, I would have given anything to have someone change my mind to match my body so I could just get on with my life. The idea of doing that scares me now, like I'd be killing myself off just to fit into this shell better. At this point I really don't care if it's a misfiring or not. I know what I want to see when I look in the mirror and that's enough for me.

Quote from: Emily Elizabeth on March 06, 2013, 08:00:10 AM
At this point I really don't care if it's a misfiring or not. I know what I want to see when I look in the mirror and that's enough for me.

Great. Thanks, Emily.

Quote from: Jenna Stannis on March 06, 2013, 06:15:01 AM
Let's say, for argument's sake, that this kind of change is possible using behaviour modification over a long period; what do you think would change if your gender was altered -- what do you think would be missed/gained?

In my case it'd be pretty good.  I don't know exactly what would change in my mind, but the result would be I'd be more comfortable in my body, I'd fit into society better, I'd never have to say to anybody "I'm a gender you've never heard of and you should refer to me using these weird made up pronouns"... it's hard to argue against it rationally.  But I'm going to argue against it anyway, just because it's not what I want.

Even if it was an effective solution, it's like being told "sorry, it turns out you were wrong all along.  Your body is fine, society is fine... you're just the wrong gender.  Come into this nice reeducation camp and we'll make a real man out of you!"

When I was younger I tried harder to pretend to fit in and be what I was expected to be, but even then I wouldn't have agreed to an attempt to change me like that.

So.. there'd be a lot of benefits to it, but it'd be changing something about me that I don't see anything wrong with.  I guess there's nothing wrong with my body either... it's not bad, for a male...  but my body doesn't get a say because my mind is the only part of me that's conscious and has emotions and can actually care about being changed.

I think bact to when I first realized my gender was not in the correct body, 6 or 7. My plan was to nuter myself, plan failed, feeling the effects since.

My gender to body is wrong.

Happiness is not a gender or sex issue but a mentral preception that can trick you. I am trying to see myself from my eyes and my mind and not through the mind and eyes of others.