Hi everyone,

I started my transition two and a half years ago.  I am technically FTM but I'm extremely feminine.  I still like feeling pretty and I am very soft spoken, etc.  In my heart I know I'm not a girl, but I feel guilty for being so feminine.  I know that there's nothing wrong with having a feminine gender expression but why do I feel bad about it?  I think maybe I might be third gender.  Some days I hate my breasts and want top surgery so badly, other days I think they are okay and kind of cute (I'm almost flat chested).

Do any of you feel confused like this sometimes?  Some days I can't function because the dysphoria is so bad.  Why am I so confused about who I am???

I just want this bad feeling to stop.  I want the day to come where I don't have to think about these things anymore.

Acceptance of yourself is the way to stop dysphoria like that.
It's difficult to do for many people, the need for acceptance from society can overrule that.
The time will come, that day will happen, that you find that you are more important than what society thinks.
It may take time, but it will happen. A good gender therapist if invaluable when you need one.

For a lot of people who have moved on from here,...
They talked about when they accepted themselves, and how it just came together for them.
There are still a lot of people who made that happen for them that are still hanging around.
Sharing what it took for them to do this. They have many insights into the Trans* world we live in.

I found there was a tipping point some time back.
I still have all the doubts and such, but I believe in myself so much more than I used to.
That was the point for me.
The less I worried about them, the more I accepted myself as I am.
We're all different, but I think that's something we all have in common.
Ativan

Deep down I feel like male, but just very feminine.  It's not the same as feeling like a girl.

I think the problem comes when I am around places that do not have space for people like me and it triggers me.
Also, I hate being reminded that I was born in a female body.

Do these things make sense?

Yes.
Especially the part of 'people like me'.

It will make better sense when you start to work on why that bothers you.
What you're describing is something that a lot of non-binary people go through.
It's what a lot of Trans*people go through...one way or another, one time or another.
It takes a certain amount of will to stop or alleviate dysphoria, but that will becomes stronger when you use it.
It becomes stronger than the dysphoria.
Ativan

It is perfectly valid to be a feminine FtM, feminine FtA, or feminine FtOther.  Any combination is possible, and I definitely remember at least one FtM passing through these boards who still wanted to wear dresses, so you wouldn't be the first feminine FtM.

It can be scary and be exhausting, but you at least want to work to accept that you are you, even if you aren't necessarily sure of who you are yet.  Keep at it. <3

Thank you for your kind responses. 

I think maybe I am male on the inside and female on the outside.  I am happy that my voice has been lowered by hormones and so in that way I definitely feel more comfortable.  I just hate being called a girl but I guess it might be something I have to live with.

I don't know what is going to happen. I'm trying to decide if I should continue testosterone. There are so many things to consider and I feel overwhelmed. I don't want to deal with this anymore.  I was not happy when I detransitioned but I'm not happy now, either. I need to find out why.

I constantly feel overrun with anxiety. 

Hey, I haven't been around for ages, but I just saw your post today and it resonated with me. I'm female-bodied but I identify somewhere on the gender spectrum between male and androgyne (usually I just say 'transmasculine genderqueer'). For me, what it took to find balance was to examine where exactly my dysphoria was coming from, and to separate gender presentation from gender identity. I've found that my body dysphoria has been greatly reduced since realizing that passing as male wasn't the only way that I could be treated as a guy--while I do get bouts of it occasionally, just things like my partner calling my body parts male names or binding for a bit helps reduce it (this is my experience--it's definitely not the same for everyone). My gender presentation varies a fair amount--masculine to feminine and everything in between--and I've found that once I got rid of the pressure to be feminine, feeling like I HAD to look feminine in, dressing 'in drag' and looking pretty and girly is something I really enjoy as long as the people I care about know that it doesn't make me a girl. Honestly, getting into RuPaul's Drag Race has really helped me feel like it's okay to be a fabulous guy (I am wearing sparkly purple nail polish right now and feel like just as much of a dude as ever).

For various reasons, I don't want to go on HRT--but if you've found that it's right for you, and that it does reduce your dysphoria, more power to you. Remember that despite what backwards-thinking people might think, you are just as much of a man if you're feminine in any way, and femininity is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of (even if our society constantly demonizes it). Reading Julia Serano's book Whipping Girl really helped me come to terms with that.

I'd also suggest finding a gender therapist, if you aren't seeing one already, especially because of your comment about the anxiety (I have generalized anxiety disorder, and I know how much that sucks). Just make sure that whoever you find is knowledgeable about non-binary identities--you can just ask in your email or phone call. Sometimes, it's really helpful to just be able to talk with someone so you can sort out your feelings and figure out what's giving you so much pain.

I feel the resonation as well. while I want nothing more than to be a girl, I want to be a tomboy. I want to be able to crossdress as a male again when I feel like it.

Quote from: brainiac on March 07, 2013, 04:39:28 PM
dressing 'in drag' and looking pretty and girly is something I really enjoy as long as the people I care about know that it doesn't make me a girl.

This is much of what I want.  I also went on hormones to become more androgynous.  Here is a picture of an actress who looks androgynous to me.  I'm not talking about her clothes.  This is the ideal and I'm very close to it.  I'm half Japanese so I don't look vastly different from her at all:



So I've decided to experiment a bit (again)  I'm not going to stop my hormones but I am going to allow myself to wear "girl's" clothes if I feel like it.  I can always take clothes off if I feel uncomfortable.  Maybe there will be some days when I bind and others where I don't.  Maybe if I do this, I will find where I'm most comfortable.

I think detransitioning made me unhappy because it made my body too much like a woman's and thus the dysphoria.  I have to find my sweet spot.

On a similar note, would staying on a low dose of T keep me from being too masculine?  Basically, the same as cis-men with low T?  This is what my doctor said, but some people say I will become totally masculine even on a low dose, but it will just take longer.  Usually I listen to my doctor, but I want to make sure I know what I'm doing.  It's not something you can easily get a "second opinion" on.

Being non-binary can be SO complicated. 

After spending the time to read several threads in this sub-forum, I have come to realize that what I have always wanted is for my body to be both male AND female.  I suppose I explained that in an earlier post, but not in such a clean and succinct way.

Now my journey is to find out exactly what I need to do with my body.  I'm thinking there might be a point in hormone therapy where I will have acquired the right level of permanent changes and will want to discontinue.

Thank you everyone for your input.  I'm sure you all know how just a little bit of kindness can go a long way during our dark times.

Quote from: Kouzoku on March 06, 2013, 07:35:37 PM

I think maybe I might be third gender.  Some days I hate my breasts and want top surgery so badly, other days I think they are okay and kind of cute (I'm almost flat chested).

Do any of you feel confused like this sometimes?  Some days I can't function because the dysphoria is so bad.  Why am I so confused about who I am???

I just want this bad feeling to stop.  I want the day to come where I don't have to think about these things anymore.

Hi Kouzoku,

I can fully relate with you. I am in a similar situation, though coming from the other side. A few things I like are stereo-typically male, and a few things stereo-typically female, and many things stereo-typically tomboyish. I too have been struggling for a long time trying to make sense of all this.

However, one thought which I have been contemplating is - why is it necessary to make sense of it ? Those who are cis-gendered do not feel the need to make any sense of their being cis-gendered. I think we feel this pressure to sense of our experience because it is something that society considers abnormal. Hence we feel the need to understand, and define our gender.

What if we could remove that social pressure for sometime ? Maybe there is a society somewhere which is just accepting... period... no questions asked. Be yourself, and express yourself. In fact everyone out there considers it absolutely normal that each person expresses their true self.

How would we be in this society ? What would we do ? What would we wear ? How would we communicate ? What would our hobbies be like ? Would we prefer being addressed as male/female/both-at-different-times ? No worries, it's all possible in this world.

I think answers to these questions would take the pressure from gender to how we want to express ourselves and experience the world. I am trying to do a lot of thinking along similar lines, and it may be helping me (though it's too early yo say as yet).

I hope you too find the answers that you seek, along with peace and joy.

Hugs :->

A Trans* activist I like stated that Gender Identity Disorder as something that cis gender people suffer from.
It isn't something that we have. This something that I think is true.
We suffer from their inability to identify with a core gender identity of those who are not cis.
The treatment would be for them to open their hearts and minds and get over it.
We live in a society that is capable of doing just that. For the most part, they try.
But there are just enough outspoken people who also make them feel wrong in doing this.

From our viewpoint, we are the ones made out to be somehow wrong, broken, etc.
It is in fact their problem and they put it on us. This is what we suffer from. Bigotry.
This is the sense that I make out of it.
That society has a problem making sense out of something as simple as gender.

Calling these people out in front of the rest of society isn't for everyone.
But I will, I do, I will confront them, in front of who ever is listening to their garbage logic.
It is surprising how fast most people will side with me,
just as soon as they realize that the other people listening don't put much stock in what these bullying bigots are saying.
I just call bullsh*t on what ever brand of bigotry they are talking about.
"That's bullsh*t and you're nothing but a bigot and bully".
It allows others to express the same sentiments.
They become vocal towards the bullies, because who hasn't been bullied growing up?
I don't call them other names, I don't confront them anymore, unless they do to me.
I don't want a confrontation in public. And I usually don't get one. I'm not that militant about it.
But the bigots get confronted. From those who are sick of their bullsh*t too.
And I live in the district that spawned one of the most hateful people in society, Michele Bachmann.

A society that is gender tolerant? It's growing up right before our eyes.
But it still isn't completely here, yet. But it will be.
In some countries, people are far more tolerant than in the US. We are learning, still.
Society is sick of wasting so much time and effort on things they know aren't true.
They want the same things we all want. A little peace and quiet, so we can get on with living.

There is nothing wrong with any of us. There is however, a problem that society has.
But it seems they have the will to cure themselves of it. Just as they have in the past, when bigotry is confronted.
It's just going to take more effort and time before it is a thing of the past.
We're getting there, we're getting closer to it all the time.
Meanwhile, back in the forest,...
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on March 09, 2013, 02:24:49 PM
A Trans* activist I like stated that Gender Identity Disorder as something that cis gender people suffer from.
It isn't something that we have. This something that I think is true.
We suffer from their inability to identify with a core gender identity of those who are not cis.
The treatment would be for them to open their hearts and minds and get over it.
We live in a society that is capable of doing just that. For the most part, they try.
But there are just enough outspoken people who also make them feel wrong in doing this.

From our viewpoint, we are the ones made out to be somehow wrong, broken, etc.
It is in fact their problem and they put it on us. This is what we suffer from. Bigotry.
This is the sense that I make out of it.
That society has a problem making sense out of something as simple as gender.

I so agree with you. My own experience feeling the way I do is very beautiful. But the pain come from not being able to express myself, and in being made to feel shame if I choose to do so.

I think if I were in an accepting society, I may not be looking for low dose hormones also. Perhaps just being able to be myself might be enough. Well I don't know for sure, but I think it may have been possible !

I want to thank everyone again for their responses.  Sorry I haven't posted much; I have been working a lot of overtime at work and haven't had the opportunity.

Since my first post, I went into the basement, dragged out all my "female" clothes, and decided that I'm going to wear what I feel like wearing when I wake up each morning.  I think one thing that kept me from doing this is I didn't want anyone at work to point out that I dress male on day and female the next.  Truly, I don't care what others think, but I do not want to be publicly humiliated at my place of work.  Well I decided that it's not a good enough reason to not by myself.  Nothing is reason enough, and if someone asks, I will deal with it then.  But it might not ever happen.

I also went and bought a new bra.  I realized that not binding doesn't make me any less male. It's probably true that I am third gender.  This might be offensive in saying (I surely hope I don't offend anyone) but about 12 years ago I first saw a picture of a kathoey from Thailand.  It was a beautiful picture, nothing degrading, and it was like fireworks going off in my brain.  Meaning I had a deep revelation and immediate understanding of myself.  I identify with them so much.  And not ALL kathoey are MtF transgender.  Many of them are, but then there is an entire group that identifies as third gender, not as female, even though their appearance is "feminine".  This is exactly what I'm feeling now.  I may want to dress pretty, but I am not a woman!  I have known this forever and ever.  I am part Asian, but also part Native American and I identify with two-spirit as well.  They were most often shaman of their tribes and considered healers as well as helping men and women understand each other.  Looking back, I've always played that type of role in my social circles.  It's natural for me.

I think all of my confusion and questioning is because of society.  It's so obvious that I know who I am, but there is always some pressure to be male or female.  I don't want to play that game anymore.  So I will do what I want.  There are times when things are segregated into "male" and "female" so I must choose, and it's those times that make me feel lonely, and like there is something wrong with me, but I know in my heart there is nothing wrong with me.  Third gender people have existed as long as humans have existed.

So anyway, this last week, I wore such pretty things to work and I felt good.  I feel that it's obvious that I'm not a woman even if I dress like one.  It's easy to tell because I work with mostly women so my differences stand out in contrast to theirs.  It's a good feeling. 

I asked a good friend if she sees me as male or female.  She doesn't know about third gender or anything like that.  She told me that honestly she sees me as neither.  It was surprising since she doesn't know about the world of transgender or non-binary gender.  She said she feels that other people probably feel the same way.  That is when I told her about third gender and she agreed that's me.

I wish I could come out as third gender at work.  I won't do that since I value employment and I can wear what I want anyway (that's a terrible double-standard.  People who are perceived as "male" cannot do that, and I feel bad for them).  But I hate using the women's toilet just as much as I would hate using the men's.  I just want to be known as who I really am, but it's okay; it's the not like I am friends with coworkers.  I don't befriend people I work with.  But I do hate being called "she".  I still prefer male pronouns if I have to be called something.  I want to use my deeper voice and do everything naturally. 

So I will talk to my doctor about my testosterone therapy and ask her what further changes I can expect if I stay on the same low dose indefinitely. 

The next concern I have is dating.  I would like to meet a nice gentleman who will accept me for who I am, but I don't even know where to start.  That's another challenge I will have to consider.

Thanks for your continued support and wisdom.

I am in a similar position in a way but I haven't started testosterone. I'm afraid if I do so I might be in the position where I feel so feminine too as a guy because I'm generally a highly sensitive person and emotional. I don't really feel comfortable in the macho mentality most of the time. I dress in guy's clothes almost all of the time but I haven't thrown away most of my women's clothes or make up, I sometimes think if I transition I will cross-dress back to the gender I was born in or wear make up or shave my legs some of the time. Without the societal attitudes that seem fairly commonplace that it's weird to be an androgyne, that horrible stuff, people in our positions would probably have more confidence in expressing ourselves and loving our bodies and feeling okay about it. You could take testosterone and wear make up or act girly. It seems like you are on your way to doing so and becoming more comfortable with it. Sometimes it's good to be able to shrug off what the more intolerant people think of this situation if you can. I myself am in a ton of confusion right now, but if I transition I could easily find myself in the same position that you are in. It's hard to know for sure.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on March 09, 2013, 02:24:49 PM
A Trans* activist I like stated that Gender Identity Disorder as something that cis gender people suffer from.

I've believed this for many years. Our modern society is seriously afflicted with GID, an inability to perceive gender outside binary, and often with a very narrow view of what is acceptable for "each" gender to express or be.

Things are changing though. I'm now completely out in my daily life. Lots of people I know, even people who aren't aware of terms such as androgyne or genderqueer, have said that they see me as neither, and they are totally OK with it.

Be yourself! Be Happy! Other people will see your joy, and want to understand!

Shana

 I just finished reading this whole thread and I wanted to let everyone who responded know that this is exactly the sort of thing I came here looking for. I get very little acceptance or understanding in the small town where I live and a lot of the time I feel like a bloody freak, even though I don't think there is anything  wrong with me. The responses here serve as a reminder that it is our culture that needs to change more so than people  like us, becasue we really are okay.

So. Thanks for the reminder

Hi everyone,

First and foremost, thank you for all the wonderful replies!  I came back to do an update because it might help someone else.

In short, I stopped hormone therapy.  I had been on Testosterone for 2 years and had enough changes and didn't need anymore.  I also was getting to the point of needing chest surgery if I continued to bind very much longer, which I couldn't afford and wasn't sure about.  I talked to my doc about it and she allowed me to stop hormones.  She understands the idea of third gender and also told me if I changed my mind, we could start again.  I was on a very low dose so stopping was not incredibly difficult.  I had some symptoms such as hot flashes and my energy immediately decreased.  It took all this time for my fat to redistribute and it's still not completely finished doing so.  My face also changed back, but not completely; I can still see the "boy" inside of me when I look in the mirror and that's very important and meaningful to me.  Of course genitalia changes are permanent, which is a good thing for me.  Hair grows finer as it did pre-T.

As far as living my life after this new adjustment?  In many ways, it's been very positive.  Because of the entire transition experience, I feel less pressured to act or dress a certain way.  My dysphoria hasn't disappeared, but it's been greatly reduced because of the permanent changes I received on T.

After de-transitioning, sometimes I feel more lonely than ever.  That's not entirely bad - it's mostly because I really am living mentally and physically as third gender now.  And I haven't met someone like me in RL yet.  Before I transitioned, I was welcome in "girl" spaces and while on T, I was more welcome in "male" spaces.  Now both genders seem to have a sixth sense about me and I'm not entirely welcome in either spaces (it sounds like they are clubs LOL which they kind of are, I guess) and so I create my own space.   I never wanted to be in either space in the first place, so again, these things are not really negatives.  It's just how things are. 

On to pronouns:  I still detest pronouns.  In past, only female pronouns bothered me, but now they both do, and it's very bothersome.  I told my friends that I'm okay if they want to use female pronouns since I am very feminine, after all.  I like to be reasonable and compromise.  I don't gender neutral pronouns either, because frankly, they don't sound good to me and it's just awkward having to teach every single person I meet.  I don't want my life to be about gender.  I don't even want to think about gender anymore.  I think eventually, I won't even pay attention to pronouns and people will use whatever their instincts tell them to.  Whatever, it's not really a priority of mine.

The most difficult thing is my wardrobe.  I'm working towards acquiring clothes which I feel suit me.  I'm going back to wearing the traditional clothes of my culture since it's more difficult to achieve this with Western clothes (IMO, I don't consider the button up shirt and pants thing to be andro WHATSOEVER, but that's just ME).

I've also accepted that I will never be able to live a status quo life.  Early on in life, I had strong signs pointing towards the life I should be leading.  It heavily involves my spiritual beliefs of Taoism and I won't elaborate because I don't want to delve into a spiritual discussion on a public board with people from many different beliefs and cultures.  Suffice it to say that in the Taoist system, there is a place for third gender people such as myself with my specific set of natural skills and disposition.  So I have a role in society, even if it's not the society in which I'm currently living, I have a place in the world.  I had pushed this away when I was young because our society always tells us that we must give into the system of having a 8-5 job to survive in the world, but that's utterly false.  I decided to let go of everything, even my fear, and let my intuition guide me as it has tried to do my entire life.

So my update really isn't so cut and dry after all but life is that way. 

But I know things are coming together.  I just need to accept who I am and learn to forget about gender.

Hi everyone!

I'm back!  This year has been very interesting and difficult. 

Long story short, I ended up back on T.  The reason why I did this is because... well, because I was mistaken about hormones can give me.  Frankly, I was dysphoric about being called a girl.  I don't want to enter grad school next year and be called "Miss".  I don't want to enter my career as a physician being seen as a woman.  So I caved and started hormone therapy once again.

But here I am in the same place I was a year ago.  The hormone therapy doesn't seem to be worth the trouble.  The "trouble" being mostly the side effects such as bad acne and difficulties with my intuition and creativity.  I'm still being read as female by most people, so what is the point of all this? 

This is what I'm asking myself.  Why am I loading myself full of hormones when it does not change how anyone perceives me?  It seems unecessary.  I don't want to put my poor body through anymore trial and tribulation.

But I don't want to be seen as female.  I imagine a medical journal with my portrait and description of my medical accomplishments... with either male or neutral pronouns.  It's so important how my colleagues see me.  I almost cry when I think of being described as "she" and "her".  It's not who I am!

So, what can I do?  The answer seems to be this:  I need to gain the courage and strength to tell people I am not female.  The very thought of this scares me.  I am shy by nature and hate when so much attention is focused towards me.  Though, I don't see any way to avoid this.  The argument is always, "but you look like a girl to me."

At least I sound androgynous after the hormones.

I just feel scared.  I don't know what to do.  This road is so lonely... there aren't a lot of people to draw inspiration from, especially not professionals.

However, I did re-read all of the advice I have been given here and everyone here has inspired me again.

I need to stop this roller coaster once and for all so I can just live my life.

Kouzoku

Non binary is a difficult identity to own.  While I am MTA, I have found low dose hrt to be the best therapy for me.  Complemented by facial hair removal, longer hair, more andro clothing etc I am in a much better place.

However when I increase the hrt I don't think as clearly, conversely when I dial it back the dysphoria seizes control.   Given this experience it may be worth discussing this and your experience/aims with your endo and logging your reaction (particularly emotional/psychological) to even small changes in dosage as you may find that there is an optimal dosage and outcome for you.

Safe travels

Aisla