Quote from: democration on March 05, 2013, 09:30:01 PM
No, I meant orientation. I don't think it's shallow to be exclusively attracted to men or to women.

If you're exclusively attracted to men and happen to have a particular fondness for transmen, what's the big deal? I see it as similar to liking a man for, say, having a beard. He's still a man, but he's got certain attributes that are more appealing to you than a man without a beard. Does that make sense?

There's a difference between being attracted to a man who happens to be trans and being attracted to a man because he is trans.  I don't think the beard analogy is one that could be compared to having an attraction to trans men specifically. 

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 05, 2013, 09:42:19 PM
There's a difference between being attracted to a man who happens to be trans and being attracted to a man because he is trans.  I don't think the beard analogy is one that could be compared to having an attraction to trans men specifically.

I only meant to say that there are certain attributes that a person could find attractive about a man that not all men have. I think if a person wanted to sleep with every transman they met, it would be an issue... but otherwise, to each his own? I understand you have a different opinion though, and that's fair.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 05, 2013, 03:26:24 PM
In what way is it doing something right to be the reason someone fetishizes trans people?

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 05, 2013, 07:59:12 PM
I don't think people wanting to date people just because they are trans is right or good.  Frankly I think it's gross, dehumanizing, and invalidating.

I don't look at us like we are a fetish. When it is put in those terms it does sound gross because fetish brings up thoughts of being used by someone to gratify their sexual urges.

I look at it as everyone has a "type" of person they are attracted to. Doesn't necessarily mean people who are attracted to trans people are solely out for sex. Trans people have a unique outlook on things. Like it or not we are unique. We have different perspectives than cis people. Some may be attracted to us because we are more open about things.

Personally, I think it's "gross, dehumanizing, and invalidating" that you would automatically take someone being attracted to us to such negative place. I've been in two long term relationships with women who were attracted to transmen. One lasted two years and the other is nine years going strong. Sex is the last thing it's about. Also, my gf has always been supportive and never questioned my masculinity or manhood. If you ask me...that's a definite plus.

Quote from: Simon on March 06, 2013, 02:41:06 AM
Personally, I think it's "gross, dehumanizing, and invalidating" that you would automatically take someone being attracted to us to such negative place.

It's hard not to take it to a "negative place".  If someone is attracted to me, finds out I'm trans, and is still attractive, that's all well and good.  What I do not like or think is right are people who specifically seek out trans people.  I personally want to be liked for my personality, not what may or may not be in my pants.  That's when it becomes fetishizing and othering.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 06, 2013, 10:48:06 AM
It's hard not to take it to a "negative place".  If someone is attracted to me, finds out I'm trans, and is still attractive, that's all well and good.  What I do not like or think is right are people who specifically seek out trans people.  I personally want to be liked for my personality, not what may or may not be in my pants.  That's when it becomes fetishizing and othering.

Isn't that back to the thing someone mentioned earlier about being only attracted to men or women, isn't that just going after what's in someone's pants then? If I only wanted to date women, and sought out women, would I be fetishizing females? Don't we (or people who aren't "pansexual") just going after what's in someones pants and then picking and choosing based on personality?

Or, is it not a fetish just because that's what's the social norm, and it's a fetish to be attracted to trans people because we're taboo?

I think it's fine to be attracted to trans guys or girls and have it not be a fetish, not everyone is attracted to transguy because "we're not real men" or whatever it is some people say.

Quote from: LearnedHand on March 06, 2013, 06:05:19 PM

Isn't that back to the thing someone mentioned earlier about being only attracted to men or women, isn't that just going after what's in someone's pants then? If I only wanted to date women, and sought out women, would I be fetishizing females? Don't we (or people who aren't "pansexual") just going after what's in someones pants and then picking and choosing based on personality?

Or, is it not a fetish just because that's what's the social norm, and it's a fetish to be attracted to trans people because we're taboo?

I think it's fine to be attracted to trans guys or girls and have it not be a fetish, not everyone is attracted to transguy because "we're not real men" or whatever it is some people say.

Seeking out trans people specifically because they are trans is what makes it a fetish.  It's not the same as being attracted to someone and finding out they are trans and being ok with it.  That wouldn't be a fetishizing action.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 06, 2013, 08:41:05 PM
Seeking out trans people specifically because they are trans is what makes it a fetish.  It's not the same as being attracted to someone and finding out they are trans and being ok with it.  That wouldn't be a fetishizing action.

I actually agree with this. It's the same thing as a chubby ->-bleeped-<-. People dating someone because they're fat and that's a fetish for them rather than dating a person who happens to be fat. I think it is harmful and dehumanizing to the trans community because we're looked at as a weird sexual "taboo" fetish instead of actual people. I don't understand why people think this is ok.

I can feel the hate coming down on me already *grabs a shield and cowers*:

I have certain preferences for people, which I am not going to get into on this board, that probably would be considered a "fetish" since it's not mainstream at all. If I saw someone at, let's say, a bar who had what I am into, I'd feel fine going up to them, talking a bit and then deciding whether or not based on this brief encounter if I feel like they're suitable to try to go to a next step with (whether it's just a one-night stand if that's what that other person would want too, or a long-term relationship). I don't see anything wrong with that, it's really no different than seeing a girl with blonde hair and blue eyes, or a nice curvy bottom, and seeking either a one-night stand or a long-term relationship. Everyone has sexual and emotional desires, their preferences vary per person, and I don't think it's necessarily a fetish to seek out what you're sexually into and then bring in your mental reasoning to find someone with your desired trait who you're emotionally into. I also see nothing wrong with one night stands as long as that's what is expected by both parties.

I don't think it's that different for people who are into trans guys or girls, if they see someone who they think is trans, and they approach them. I think it'd be wrong to fake liking or loving them just to satisfy their desires, but I see nothing wrong with initially approaching them or even seeking them out based on a physical or emotional attraction and then basing any kind of relationship based on personality.

Everyone on the planet (well, most likely, I haven't interviewed everyone) has some kind of a "perversion" or "fetish" etc. It's just some are more socially accepted than others, what's a perversion for one culture isn't for another. It's all part of nature and we shouldn't have to be ashamed of our preferences. As long as someone isn't lying to us in order to satisfy their lust, I think there's nothing wrong with others seeking us out.

Edit to add: http://tranifesto.com/2009/05/22/preference-or-fetish-the-very-fine-line/  http://siditty.blogspot.com/2008/03/preference-vs-fetish.html This article here might do a better job than me at explaining the attraction-fetish line.

Quote from: LearnedHand on March 06, 2013, 09:20:39 PM
Edit to add: http://tranifesto.com/2009/05/22/preference-or-fetish-the-very-fine-line/  http://siditty.blogspot.com/2008/03/preference-vs-fetish.html This article here might do a better job than me at explaining the attraction-fetish line.

that's a good article, especially in the last paragraph where he says this :

"Personally, I'm not particularly offended by someone who is specifically interested in dating trans men. To me, that's a preference. But since no two trans men are alike, that person might have to go through quite a few before he or she finds one who is compatible. If compatibility isn't an issue, then we might have a little fetish thing going on here. "

I think his point creates a really good brightline for when it starts to become objectifying

Sounds like she wants attention.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on March 06, 2013, 09:19:53 PM
I actually agree with this. It's the same thing as a chubby ->-bleeped-<-. People dating someone because they're fat and that's a fetish for them rather than dating a person who happens to be fat.

I'm a chubby ->-bleeped-<-, LOL. Seriously, I've dated women of all sizes but I am attracted to big girls. It's not a fetish. It's just the type of woman I typically go for. Fetish is purely a level of sexual attraction. When I say "type" I mean that is the type of person I could see myself being in a relationship with. I like big, sweet, mouthy, southern women. If given a choice between a woman like that and a stick thin girl who obsesses over her looks and every calorie she puts in her mouth I'll always go for the fat girl.

Having transmen as a type is a good thing, imo. If you guys don't want to be sought out by women for relationships that started because she was attracted to you as a transman then that is your prerogative. Keep chasing lesbians who don't want you once you transition or playing relationship russian roulette with straight girls.   

theres actually a term for it: Andromimetophilia = attraction to people asigned female but who look, act or is male.(aka butch,transmen, etc)
I actually has a couple of ->-bleeped-<- chaisers after me, (I pretty much feel like the only ftm whos in that situation)
I dont mind, maybe cause I like trans people as well, but it really depends on how the attraction goes vs the person felling.

if someone is attractive to your in a way you dont like then its sure not to be felling great. ex I had a guy who was attracted to me cause he saw me as a tomboy female who could top and penetrain him (he was gay btw) and it was really not how I would be viewed so sure my response was "not interesteed" I also think alot of people who dont use there genetalia would feel disturbed by being fetished in the same category as those who are into PIV sex with transmen.
--
I dont think its wrong to like transguys, but its how you do it who is the matter as well as any other things.
I am sure we all have preference, fetish or whatever to say, for one night stand this dosent matter so much but if we speaks more emotionally its rather important that your not building things who only focus on sex.
sure a person could think of it as a + that your trans, redhead, skinny, chubby, blonde, dark, asia, young, whatever they like, but if thats the only thing who matters and your to get a emotional connection then you have a problem and I think you should try avoid those.

alot of people arnt like that, they have preferences/fetish but there not blinded by it.
so they might prefern blonde people with blue eyes, and manly date them, but deep down the personalety still counts. Like I find most dark women very attractive, so its a plus if there dark, but im not attractive to everyone I see who is black, and also the personalety plays a big role and if she isnt sweet she isnt good for me.

Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2013, 02:25:33 PMKeep chasing lesbians who don't want you once you transition or playing relationship russian roulette with straight girls.

That's pretty harsh dude. I don't do any of those things and the woman I'm with right now has only dated cis guys and is also attracted to me. She doesn't make a big deal out of my trans status nor did she date me because I'm trans. She's also not a lesbian and get offended when people call her completely straight. I don't think it's fair of you to assume anything about everyone's relationship on here or crap on people who don't think like you do.

Quote from: Simon on March 07, 2013, 02:25:33 PM
I'm a chubby ->-bleeped-<-, LOL. Seriously, I've dated women of all sizes but I am attracted to big girls. It's not a fetish. It's just the type of woman I typically go for. Fetish is purely a level of sexual attraction. When I say "type" I mean that is the type of person I could see myself being in a relationship with. I like big, sweet, mouthy, southern women. If given a choice between a woman like that and a stick thin girl who obsesses over her looks and every calorie she puts in her mouth I'll always go for the fat girl.

Having transmen as a type is a good thing, imo. If you guys don't want to be sought out by women for relationships that started because she was attracted to you as a transman then that is your prerogative. Keep chasing lesbians who don't want you once you transition or playing relationship russian roulette with straight girls.

I'd rather play Russian roulette with straight girls than be with someone who seeks me out for my vagina, which let's face it, is what most people who say they are attracted to trans men, or want to date trans men really care about.  The rest buy into all that "they are sweeter", "they know women better", "they are the best of both worlds" bull crap, and when they get a rude wake up call when they find out their man isn't any sweeter, more intuitive of a woman's needs, or any of that just because he has a vagina, they hit the road because they can't deal with the fact that their trans man boyfriend is a living breathing man, and not some man-woman hybrid. 

as indicated by this thread, some transguys do see themselves as a man-woman hybrid in some ways - built by life experiences, socialization, and physical body structure -  so what is the problem looking for a partner that likes that?

if the partner likes that even if they don't like you, if they put up with you or don't bother to get to know because you are their fetish - that's the problem, as defined well in that article linked above

Quote from: Darrin Scott on March 07, 2013, 03:41:23 PM
I don't think it's fair of you to assume anything about everyone's relationship on here or crap on people who don't think like you do.

I'm not crapping on anyone. Anytime anyone on here has a strong opinion about something others want to cry foul or get offended. That was just my way of saying do what you want, I don't care.

My gf also only dated cis males before me. However, we met over nine years ago. I was identifying as a man but didn't pass to save my life. She accepted me for who I was but she knew. There was no way she couldn't have. Many years later she did confine in me that she was curious about her sexuality when we met. I know some of you will think that she used me as a safe stepping stone to see if she could be romantic with someone FAAB. Maybe that was the case. I don't know, don't care. Now she says if anything happened between us she would only date transmen. According to some of you I may have given her a fetish, lol.

Women who are strictly heterosexual would have a hard time accepting their pre-op boyfriend doesn't have a penis. Again, not trying to hurt feelings. Just being a realist.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 07, 2013, 03:49:56 PM
The rest buy into all that "they are sweeter", "they know women better", "they are the best of both worlds" bull crap, and when they get a rude wake up call when they find out their man isn't any sweeter, more intuitive of a woman's needs, or any of that just because he has a vagina, they hit the road because they can't deal with the fact that their trans man boyfriend is a living breathing man, and not some man-woman hybrid.

From some of your comments here and in the past I know you have a hard time being seen having any iota of female (or what you perceive as female) left in you. Apparently you see being "sweeter or more intuitive of a woman's needs" as something you're not. I'm proud to say I am and it has nothing to do with being a "man/woman hybrid" as you  apparently believe it does. I do it  because I love her, respect her, and I don't get off on or think I'm more manly by being a jerk.

Quote from: spacerace on March 07, 2013, 04:14:26 PM
as indicated by this thread, some transguys do see themselves as a man-woman hybrid in some ways - built by life experiences, socialization, and physical body structure -  so what is the problem looking for a partner that likes that?

You are correct. Some want to deny...deny...deny but there is no way someone was FAAB and has taken nothing from the experience. We have seen and experienced life far differently than a cis male. No way around it. Some people are attracted to that difference in us. There is nothing wrong with it.

I am still just honestly confused on how it's different then just seeking out bio-females or bio-males, since if I want just females then I am just seeking out a vagina then?  I asked this earlier and no one actually answered it. I am not trying to be a jerk about this, I just can't fully understand the other point of view without getting over this hurdle.

If I am interested in only vaginas, then isn't that what I'd only care about when I go after women then? How's it a fetish to go after transguys for their vaginas but not when I chase after cis-females or butches for their vaginas?

I can fully understand why some people would go after transguys who haven't had bottom surgery and don't plan on it; I myself like some men and can find them attractive, but I just hate penises. They're gross, they look weird, taste bad  , I don't even want one on me. Some of those ultra-realistic packers scare me and I want kind of a fake looking one. So, I can see why a person would want a man without a penis if he/she is attracted to men but dislike penises, so why not look in the trans market? I kind of see it as like another gender, of course if you want a penis and such then you may not identify as this other gender and therefore wouldn't want a person who's attracted to transguys. I want either woman or men without dicks. Oh my..... maybe I am a transeeker? 

well personally I prefern vegina over penis no matter what gender we talk about.
I also like penis, but they tend to give me dyshoria as I compare them with sperm, and that they in fact can make me pregnant, (even if it seams unlikely.) =/

so for whatever gender this is my preference, I still have been with cismen or transwomen with penis, so its not like im closed for the option its just if I had to choose.

yet attraction is so much more than just genetalia, the face, personalety, eyes, smile, geenral overlook, smell, alot of other things are also in attractions.

usunally we dont see what the genetails of the people we check out on the street have.

(Note: I'm probably what would be called demisexual so I don't really understand the whole attraction properly first hand.)

To me, if someone's going around looking for trans people to date then that's just plain weird in my eyes.  I know that not everyone feels the same, but this is a medical condition to me, and I think most people would say it wasn't normal, or that it was fetishising to go around seeking out diabetics or people with liver disease.  You could justify that they have a different out look on life because they have to be wary and careful on how they life their life, the same way as some people have been saying that it's okay to justify seeking out trans men because they were socialised as a female in the past.  I can guarantee that not everyone who has the same medical condition has the same outlook on life as everyone else, just as not all trans men have the same outlook or views on women as each other (anyone remember all that stuff going down last year about the guy who was a trans representative and had apparently done sexually assaulted at lot of his partners?  I forget his name.)  I also take slight offense at the statement that all trans men have taken something from being "socialised as female", really?  I've always made sure that the guys realised that I was just as good, and just as manly as them, never really befriended females, and spent a lot of time when I did try to offending them because I have male humour.  I find it hard to understand women's fears about walking places in the dark, about strange men etc because I feel like as a female bodied person I should at least be able to relate to that, or have it ingrained into me by society that I need to watch out, but it never happened.  Once I was worried walking down a strange alley in town, but that was because I look about twelve, and clearly out of place in a town.

I see it different as wanting a cis male or a cis female because I don't see me as another gender.  I am male, my body isn't, but I will do everything I can to sort that out.  I probably won't go for bottom surgery unless it advances more, or my dysphoria increases down there, but I am still male, and I don't want anyone to be interested in me because of having an extra hole.  I don't even think that someone only interested in vagina would find a post-T, pre-op set of genitalia acceptable because it's not your typical cis-female's, it's not a cis-males either, but closer to that in terms of smell, taste and function (apparently, obviously I don't know yet.)  Also, people do have sexual orientations, and no matter how much you love and care about someone's brain, their body does play a role in whether you're going to work out for good or not.  I get nothing out of being with men, I don't feel anything kissing them, or having sex with them, not even the close intimate feeling, and the person I discovered that with was so close to me spoke almost non-stop for 8 months, and I did love their mind, it just didn't work with the body.  Sexual orientation is more than a fetish.

My ex is now with another trans man, at first I did think that they were being fetishising, but now I don't think that's the case.  You don't go running to France without a valid passport and sneaking through immigration on the basis of a fetish, there are plenty of other trans men in the country which would do just as well if that was the case.  I didn't even know I was trans at the time they fell for me.  Some people probably do end up with a disproportionate number of trans people in their relationship history, but that doesn't mean that they all have fetishes, after all some of them probably get involved in the community like my ex did (and then realised they were GQ/MTF but that's a different matter).

Obviously some people do have fetishes for trans people, men and women, but I don't think it's fair to say that they should be all that we should be in a relationship with if we want to expect it to last.  I'm not the sum of my parts, I can't see why anyone would think that I was a good candidate for a partner just because what I have and what I don't have attached to me, and I sure as hell can't see myself ever being attracted to someone who only paid attention to me because of the fact that I was born like this.  I'm not saying that attraction is wrong, I find my girlfriend very attractive, and she happens to have similar physical features to the woman who made me realise that I liked women; dark hair, grey/blue eyes, shortish, poor eyesight and neither stick thin or fat.  I didn't want to be with her because she needs glasses, I'm with her for who she is, not her features, I've just happened to fall for two people who shared that characteristic in my life, it wasn't a conscious decision.

Actually, I think that's where I'd say that fetish starts and harmless preference ends, when someone is consciously seeks out someone because of a particular aspect, fat, trans, disabled, I have no idea what body-things people fetish over.

Alex, thanks for taking the time to clearly describe your point of view, though I don't agree with quite 100%, I've said my piece above. 

I am really tempted to bring in a big thread derailment.... agh... I'll make another post in the transsexual page.

Edit: Here we go for anyone interested https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,137005.new.html#new