So... I have no idea how to ask this in an understandable way, so I'll just try to be as clear as I can and hope someone gets it

I'm a profoundly ugly girl. I'm attracted to masculinity, I have no appreciation for female beauty or figures, I'm only attracted to men and the occasional butch lesbian.

But I am universally not attractive to those people.

I can't get a guy or a lesbian at a bar at closing time, or anytime. All I ever get from people is condescension or outright bullying. With all my makeup and girly clothes, it just makes it worse. I have a slim body, but my face...Just doesn't look like a girl's face or anywhere near. If MTFs think they have a hard time...At least they have help. And once they do they can pass as a pretty woman or maybe plain at least. But feminine enough to be left alone, which I am clearly not, since I get bullied by men all the time for my face, laughed at, pointed at, spat at. All this by homeless guys let alone hot ones to whom I'm just air.

Everyone just sees me as someone to mock, not a human being, definitely not one worthy of dating. I can tell how different I am just by family members' attitudes towards me and wanting me to study study study and never go out and never pushing my other female relatives like this. I get pity from everyone always and it drives me crazy. Everyone around me thinks it's impossible for me to date or find someone, no matter how much or what kind of makeup I wear, bleaching my hair etc....

I pass as female but all it gets me is bullying. I've never been kissed or slept with anyone I'm starting to think I never will. I come from a tiny baltic country, there just isn't that many people for there to be someone to find me attractive if I'd be acceptable to maybe 0.00000001% of the world's population. What are the chances of finding someone like that?

And no, I don't have BDD, I've been told I'm pig ugly a million times, it's nowhere near BDD at this point, it's a problem. I can tell how awful I look by all the men's behaviour towards me. And I don't have any cash to even move out of my parents' house let alone plastic surgery. I'd need orthognatic surgery, bone shaving, all of that stuff that MTFs need, to look acceptably feminine in the face.

So, I got the idea that if I could pass as a feminine guy it'd all be better. The bullying would stop. People already want me to be some geeky, asexual tomboyish genderless creature so maybe I should just conform, throw out my precious makeup and romance novels and forget my XX chromosomes. Everyone else ignores them anyway.

I don't want to change my body or anything, but I dunno... Maybe I could find a romantic connection in that way somehow. Like, over here there are a few butch women that date other butch women etc... It sucks having to give up femininity but it's not like I've ever gotten to be feminine with anyone or treated like a feminine girl in all of my 21 years. It's time to come of age, so maybe I should make some sort of a change before I go completely off the rails.

Paige H only you can answer the question wether you would be happier as a guy. But as far as looks go I highly doubt you are are as unatractive as you believe you are! Don't pay attention to what people say you are worth more than looks and I do truly believe that true beauty comes from within some of the most good looking people I've met in my life were completely ugly on the inside. Just like the people that are bullying you. You should not have to put up with this bullying in your life. I knew a girl when I was in high school who got picked on like you describe. I never got the reason why ether because she was attractive the kids just pick on her for some reason. Don't let jerks determine your self worth your beautiful in your on way. 

Thank you for the response

I'm just looking for someone who could relate.
It seems like noone gets this to the extent I do.

It's not just bullies.

It's my family.

It's everyone I've ever met.
I'm nice, talkactive, I go up to people sometimes, sometimes I'm shy, but I never cross anyone's boundaries and I work hard to give everyone a chance and all they ever do is disappoint me. It's like they don't even understand I'm a human being, much less a woman. Not to mention the last time I went to a lesbian bar someone walked past me very loudly saying how ugly girls shouldn't think lesbians want them, either. I wanted to honestly go up to her and ask her to just shoot me like a wounded horse - she was exactly my type of a butch woman.

I've never called myself ugly but after 21 years of strictly negative experiences with the opposite sex, I just have to accept I don't conform, I stick out, I do pass as the cisgirl I am but only in the worst type of way and I only attract bullies and people who step all over me and want to use my loneliness and desperation to get money out of me even though I have none. Some people think I do because of how I go to the gym and take care of myself always and people are very poor here, but so am I I just waste all my money trying to be attractive while I'm still just...The opposite.

It's to the point where I need to either move to a different planet or make a change in myself, or I'll never experience love and affection.

Quote from: Paige H on March 08, 2013, 10:22:32 AM


It's to the point where I need to either move to a different planet or make a change in myself, or I'll never experience love and affection.

I don't think you should have to change yourself to fit in someone else's narrow view of beauty. I think we all have a certain beauty to us that makes us unique. I don't think ugly is on the outside ugly comes from within. And I believe one day you will find someone who will see you for who you really are. Your still young don't write off love just yet.

Paige, the fact that your family bullies you for your appearance really sticks out to me. That's a very painful experience, one that no one should have to go through no matter what they look like. It sounds like you have some self-esteem and self-image issues to work out in addition to figuring out where your gender identity lies. It also sounds like you've been mistreated a lot and internalized that, and like you're in a lot of pain. I'd strongly suggest seeing a therapist about it, if you have the ability.

Paige, I don't think transition is the answer for you. Not because it's a difficult journey (it's not, see below) but simply because you are a woman. A woman with apparent challenges, sure, but a woman all the same.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on March 08, 2013, 05:06:15 PM
Paige, I don't think you're asking this question for entirely healthy reasons. Transition is just another struggle--a huge struggle--to pile onto your life... you really need to want to live as a man. I am not trying to tell you what to do. That is your choice.  But the fact that you have to ask, and the perspective you have of potentially transitioning, tells me you probably already know the answer to your question (the one in the title).

I've not found transition to be a struggle at all.. In fact, it's been a damn lot easier than my life before. You seem to have a habit of projecting your beliefs on to others, Pretty.. And it's getting old.

Well, another thing is - transition really doesn't make you more physically attractive.

As others have said, the question is really, are you a guy inside? Do you have body dysphoria (surrounding your sex characteristics - feeling they should be male, not female), or is it just body insecurity?

The only reason transitioning has made me happier is because I am finally becoming the man outside that I am inside. Nothing else in my life has really gotten any better, including my self-esteem and body image issues (unrelated to being trans, such as my weight, facial features, etc). All those things need to be worked on from a different angle. Transitioning to male won't solve those problems.

Quote from: Caleb. on March 08, 2013, 05:40:47 PM
Well, another thing is - transition really doesn't make you more physically attractive.

Yeah. Paige, I went from a really attractive woman to a not so attractive (conventionally anyway) man. I really don't think it'll help you.

Well transition doesn't actually change you in certain respects-- you are still whoever you might be inside and you have to live with yourself. It sounds to me like you are trying to escape yourself in some way. It also doesn't seem like you feel that you are really male. It's true that not everybody instantly knows themselves to be the cross gender and that some people take time to come into themselves.

It sounds as if you are talking about attraction-- no one is attracted to you, sexual partners and that sort of thing. It sounds like you are going thru very difficult times indeed. But who is attracted to and vice versa-- that's not the same as transgender. Transitioning won't make you more attractive-- I like my looks better, but it is, perhaps just that I feel a little more comfortable in my own skin.

But perhaps you just don't exactly know how to word things. There is such a thing as Female to Male (FTM) Transgender (might look in our forum section) and see if any of us sound like you. Perhaps you don't know how to word your concerns or something. But what it sounds like you're asking is "I'm not male but if I were to become male maybe things would be easier." Maybe this is just entirely off and not what you are saying.

BTW, bullies-- well family can be the worst bullies.

--Jay

Thank you all for your responses

I have been in therapy since I was 14 because of bullying etc. Therapy is great for a lot of people, but it's come to the point where I realize it's not for me.

I get hurt, I go to therapy, I work it out and get hurt again. It's useless, I'm going in circles.

Therapy cannot give me sexual partners, it's not what it's for. It can't make men find me attractive, or lesbians for that matter.

I have no insecurities whatsoever at this point. I love myself. My problem is, people refuse to love me. And I'm isolated, lonely, I get bullied and have noone to support me. Yes, I can pay for a therapist but at this point, psychiatrists are already done with me, because I have no mental health problems. And they're refusing to give me any more pills. There's no mind altering that can disguise people's treatment of me from me, unless I drink myself into a coma every single day, which I'm considering to start doing, not because therapy isn't more constructive but because there is nothing that can solve this problem.

The answer hasn't come from within, at this point it has to come without. From the outside world.

And if I did look sufficiently like a guy (I know full well I'm not a guy or nowhere near it mentally), people would leave me alone. I could go down the street without people bullying me for my looks. I could just give up and be done with it.

It's fine to say I'm too young to give up but I fel like I'm 96 years old. I know more about male-female dynamics and psychology than most mental health professionals and I've seen it all play out in my life. I'm sick of it. I'm tired of the same BS, I'm sick of it. I'm done.

I also have to admit I have another agenda to why I'm considering doing this.

I just want to belong to a group that can share my problems and at least find support I don't have to pay way too much cash for - insurance cannot cover my psychiatric treatment because they tell me there's nothing wrong with me. I don't have a diagnosis, so I can't get help. I'm not really depressed. I'm just reacting to the events in my life in a normal, healthy way, and the events are all negative. But I'm coping very well, actually. For now.

It seems there is every support group possible except 'the girl who is too ugly to escape bullying and find a romantic partner' support group.

If you're so ugly there are as few girls like you in the world as there are supermodels there is no support. Other plain girls are just relieved they aren't you and use you as a self-esteem boost because they aren't known online as the "ugliest heshe in Estonia" - the reason I have no facebook or anything like that, I used to but deleted it after that. People were making comments like, why does she even bother, and she's not even into girls but it's obvious she'll never get a guy for the life of her, not even one an alcoholic with no teeth.
And given the treatment I receive from homeless men that is obviously true. One ruined my boots by spitting on them. Just unreasonable hostility, coming from nowhere.

And I'm not a heshe but I wish I was, because then I would have a group of people who I had common ground with and who would see me as one of them instead of that awful creepy outcast you just have to ignore or pity, but never see as a human being.

Paige I think we all want to feel like we want to belong somewhere. But changing your gender is not the answer to the way you feel about yourself. Unless you really feel like your a man this would be a Huge mistake on your part. Changing your gender is not easy or cheap for that matter. And you'll probably face even more harassment than what your receiving now. Look on the bright side you were born in the right gender. That is something I have always wanted but will never have.

Thank you Heather for sticking with the topic I'm a notorious rambler, I know, I'm working on it

I know it would be a mistake, but it's not like I'm gonna go for surgery. Maybe not even testosterone.

With the way my face looks now it will not be a big stretch that with the right haircut and zero makeup and way of waking, I would pass. I mean, people automatically seem to treat me like a guy (one of the guys) or assume I'm trans or call me heshe all the time, though thanks to the cleavage-revealing wardrobe and hips most will not do that. I mean, look at people who assume Lady Gaga has a penis, why do they do that, use that particular kind of nasty rumor against her specifically? Can't be because of her body, she has a hornet waist. So the face carries a lot of weight.

Trust me, with the way I'm treated, and transwomen having boyfriends all the time and bringing guys home from the bar, something I cannot do but at least they can pull it off, being born the right gender is nothing to me, becasue I've never been treated like I was born my gender. Despite oh so much effort, more than anyone I know puts in. And I know some insanely girly clubhoppers, trust me.

Well, if you'd be happier just dressing in guy's clothes, cutting your hair, and going about things as a guy before making any decisions regarding hormones and surgery, maybe that would be a start. You could just be more comfortable being a girl who dresses in clothes that are traditionally made for men.

I know it's hard to do this when others are pushing you around and making you feel threatened/unworthy, but it sounds to me like you are putting a lot of pressure on yourself. I really doubt you're so unattractive you can't get a date. Where have you been looking? And oftentimes...love comes when you're not looking, anyway. When you're just going about your day to day life and meet someone you find a connection with that way.

And for appearance...there are a LOT of girls who feel really bad about how they look. And often times, that's why they bully people who seem different. It sounds cliche, but it is SO true. I wasn't popular by any means in school, but I was around enough women to know how it worked. It's cruel. And at some point, you have to forget them as much as you can do what you want. What do YOU want to wear? What do YOU want to do? If you're going to be bullied, you may as well be bullied knowing full well you are living for yourself rather than trying to make other people approve of you.

Also, just to make a technical note...people bully guys too if they look different. I've walked with my brother a number of times, only for men to yell out their car windows "FATASS!" or "->-bleeped-<-GOT!" at him. He was bullied until he stopped trying to be friends with judgmental people who gave him trouble, and found people who shared common interests with him. Like he started taking cosmetology in school and found a lot of girls who didn't care about how he looked or acted. A couple people still bothered him now and again, but it was much easier to handle because he had that "home base" of friends he could go to.

I'm with Caleb, I mean it wouldn't hurt you to dress like a guy, get your hair cut like a guy and so on. You can find out if you feel better that way. I don't know that it means that your trans, as masculine women are fairly common. There are things you can do like binding your chest that a lot of butch women do. I'm not sure it will make you feel better. The shehe thing is very old fashioned, never been called this.

I am not for running away from your problems but I can pretty much assure you that masculine women are a dime a dozen in most western countries.

But I can pretty much also say that crude rude mean people are everywhere as well.

--Jay