You situation with your friend is so interesting, that I am now going to talk to my gender therapist about it. That are several barriers that I have that keep me from making friends with either gender. From being too shy to having chains of masculinity tied me down in society. Don't be bound by society standards of manhood, if you felt offended then you were offended. That is exactly how I felt. Don't try to change the person you are friends with (impossible) or ignore your feelings like masculinty has taught many males.... Don't be lonely like me either, find the friend that is right for you. You be yourself no matter what type of friends you make or what type of friend you are.

Am sorry that I have post a second time but this is a emotional topic for me because I literally felt stuck in your situation. Right now I cannot help but cry because all the friendship I had in the past makes me feel dull and dead inside. The one that you described. I spent too many years ignoring my feelings to fit in with a whole bunch of guys. When will my feeling get acknowledge. I don't want to ruin my guy friends fun of joking around with each other. I am going to ask you one very serious question (anyone can answer). Why stay in a friendship that is detrimental to your health?

Everyone around you is happy, but you. Being a closeted transsexual is about making everyone around you happy. Why not put your happiness first?

Is this not the same. Be who you are and let live. What ever that may be.

If he knew it was inappropriate to say what was on his mind, he would have caught himself and just not said it rather than announcing "No that's mean. I was going to say something but that's mean so I wont." Really, what guy does that?

If you want to go down the stereotyping route, he already broke a male stereotype with that behavior. I've had a lot of male friends and they've never done anything like this. My female friends have though.

Here's a stereotype for you. It's more like female behavior to play mental games like that by starting a joke or conversation then leaving the other person hanging so that they have to ask "What, what were you going to say?" to continue the joke or gossip. Usually my female friends would do this when they wanted to let me know that they were thinking badly of me or another person but wanted to  avoid actually coming out and saying what was on their mind. Not only does it leave you wondering, it also makes you feel like crap. Plus, you know that they're either going to gossip to other people behind your back later about whatever it was they wanted to say or that they already have gossiped about you which is what brought the topic to mind in the first place. Isn't that also a typical female stereotype?

I have never experienced a guy doing something like this. I've playfully joked around with my guy friends before in the same way and whenever one of them accidentally crosses the line and says something hurtful then realizes it, it's always "Hey man, you know I'm just joking." then we agree, laugh it off and move on.


Everyone, including myself, is starting to over analyze this now. The guy did something dumb and atypical of male behavior so correct him then get on with life. If he keeps doing it, he's being an ass on purpose so ditch him.

Quote from Contravene

"The guy did something dumb and atypical of male behavior"


Sorry that is an oxymoron and I think the core of the problem.

This is how guys are, to be honest I thought in the OP the guy was being sensitive in pulling back.

I'll start and finish here:

If a male friend says to you:  'Geex you are a dickless wonder"  Is that an insult? or a normal guy expression?

How would you feel?

To be totally honest cisguys talk like that to each other all the time, maybe using such a phrase is acceptance rather than an insult, the apology would be the insult as you seem to be expecting him not to treat you as a regular guy.

If you asked for an apology for that? Well to be honest I'd suggest reading 'Passing 101'

A reply to such a comment?

I would suggest an immediate response:

'Princess you wouldn't know a dick if it was stuck up your ass with barbed wire wrapped around it.'

Does it mean anything. Ye you're pals.

That's what guys do.

Cindy

it was a joke. he may have slipped up. forgive the guy.

Are some people who transition seriously expecting people to be perfectly sensitive and to tiptoe around needles for them? sometimes people mess up. get over it, have a laugh, and move on. Me and my friends make fun of my transgender status all the time. It's really just not a big deal.

Quote from: tomthom on March 19, 2013, 05:50:41 AM
it was a joke. he may have slipped up. forgive the guy.

Are some people who transition seriously expecting people to be perfectly sensitive and to tiptoe around needles for them? sometimes people mess up. get over it, have a laugh, and move on. Me and my friends make fun of my transgender status all the time. It's really just not a big deal.

I have to say I agree with this.  If you can laugh at yourself and your situation then people won't feel the need to stop themselves and leave you wondering, "What did they want to say that was mean?"

Contravene, it seems as though you are comparing normal atypical guy behavior or throwing insults to each other to a girl actually being mean which is not the same thing. That is how guys usually act which took me a while to understand why they behave the way they did with me. If they really wanted to be mean, trust me they would have straight up bullied you from the very beginning. Although you do have a point that with girls they tend to hide their animosity towards you by being friendly up front and gossiping behind your back (not to say that all girls take that approach to bullying others).

It took me a while to understand why guys were so hard with each other right to the point of attacking something about you that might or might not be personal. Its as the other as said, that is how guys communicate with each other or their way of being nice to each other.

I no longer hate any of my male friends for it and sometimes I even laugh it off like some of the previous posters said. Although I still would not want that type of relationship and envy the way girls treat each other when treating each other nicely and not in a mean way as you just showed Contravene.

If a girl was to act like that to her best friend (girl) they would be as upset as you were. Not to say that guys cannot get as upset, but just realize that there are different type of friendships. You do not have to accept the stereotypical way of how guys act with each other and move on. Although it seems as though you already accepted that or at least I think so. If he is too hard on you the next time you'll leave and find another friend that is not as hard. Is this not your statement your making now? I wish someone could have gave the same advice there.

I wish can handle that type of relationship like all you ftm handle with cis guys. although I am a sensitive girl and not like them. Farewell and I hope you are feeling better with your situation with your friend Contravene.

Every guy tells "dick jokes" and "homo jokes" and the point is to be as offensive as you can with the jokes. The friend though is constantly doing this about only trans related things according to the OP, knowing that it angers him. That's why I think the friend is doing it to provoke him, especially if the friend is a bigger guy. It's all about the provocation. (That's also why I compared it to how some women try to provoke each other by being mean.)

Guys will do that a lot. If they want a fight, they'll try to provoke you by saying something disrespectful aka "dissing" you. It seemed to me that the friend knows he's a bigger guy and could easily kick the OP's ass so he's always provoking for a fight he knows he'll win so he can further embarrass the OP and assert his dominance for being a cis-male.

No one's asking for an apology either. It seems like it's a question of whether or not this would be grounds to kick his friend's ass.

Personally, the part that would make me angry is the fact that the friend keeps pulling back and not saying what he wants to. This is what I, and probably most guys, would offensively call a "bitch move".

If I was doing the insult game with a friend and he suddenly turned the topic around to mention my unfortunately non-existent dick, I would reply with something like "Quit acting like a bitch. I know you want my dick, it's lucky I don't have one because I wouldn't be able to get you off of it." Which would top his offensiveness and not give him the fight he seemed to be looking for.

And Manyquestions, I don't hate any of my friends but I don't allow them to provoke me either whether in a female or a male way. Having someone constantly trying to provoke your anger wears on you after a while.


I'm sure I'm probably wrong about all of this though so I'll buy my copy of "Passing 101", cancel my transition and go buy some dresses because I'm obviously not the man I thought I was.

i think he said that because he wanted me to know he was thinking it but didn't want to openly insult me. he wanted to be underhand with it.
btw im not in the closet and he knows im trans and nearly treats me as one of the guys. i would have said megan didn't seem to mind. referencing the time i hooked up with a girl he liked.

Quote from: Contravene on March 19, 2013, 01:37:12 PM
That's why I think the friend is doing it to provoke him, especially if the friend is a bigger guy. It's all about the provocation. (That's also why I compared it to how some women try to provoke each other by being mean.)

As you've said, I think you are over-analysing it too much. It is not a provocation game and there's a line between what's joking and what's offensive.

As for him backing down and calling it "mean", I've heard it before and I really don't think it makes it any more of a big deal. It could just mean he's trying to respect your boundaries and he just blurted it out at the last second without thinking too much about it.

Quote from: anibioman on March 19, 2013, 02:37:30 PM
i think he said that because he wanted me to know he was thinking it but didn't want to openly insult me. he wanted to be underhand with it.
btw im not in the closet and he knows im trans and nearly treats me as one of the guys. i would have said megan didn't seem to mind. referencing the time i hooked up with a girl he liked.

seriously, you're being way too sensitive about this. that's not underhanded. you'll know when something is underhanded. Thats and if you're going around hooking up with girls he openly likes and likely told you before hand, I'm questioning which friend is the ass.

isn't poking on a guy most personal weak point is not one suppose to do when they are a guy. I had all type of friends who had something about them that was very personal. It could be that they are gay, fat, skinny, weak, or whatever. Trust me I was no acception to that rule. Am pretty sure some mtf here understand too.

Although now am not so sure if this friend is using insults to be friendly or not. From some of the post I previously read some said here to not make a big deal out of it or laugh it off. I guess only the op knows if this is serious or not. Although if he was being a typical guy like some have already said, then beating the friend up would probably be a mistake. I use to be in the same situation like that and always wonder if I should have beaten up all my male friends. Sure some of them might have been playing or others were not. Although I just do not play around like that no more. It makes it easy to tell who is a friend and who is not. Never go too far when joking around. Although I know that does not work with guys. That is why he might be confuse on whether he should or should not beat him up.

If he does beat him up and scream about how his feelings were hurt he might lose all his male friends and be lonely. Nobody like the angry or overly sensitive man. At least that is what I thought when it happened to me several times....

Then again, he might not have any respect to begin with if he is truely dissing him just for the sake of being dominant, so beating him up would no matter then.

In a male friendship it is always about the competition of who dominant who. Who is the alpha dog and so on. Some take it too far and others do not. I like to be in a friendship where I am a equal/partner and nobody wears me done like you said. I know that last line might not fit with what most guys want in a friendship, but that was my number cretria which none of them fit. I know that I will not get that with most guys that was trained under society on what constitutes a male friend. Hopefully being seen as female will make other more careful around me and take me more seriously when my feelings are hurt. Like my previous post suggested (what happen to that girl who I apologize).

Also I do not necessary agree with some of the posters here who say just to shrugg it off. Only you know when a person cross the line. Do not ignore you feelings like most guys do. They do matter. Men are not machines with no emotions.

Provoking others is what male friends do. The hard part is knowing if they are doing it to be friendly or not. Although I already found my answer. If I had that feeling that I felt offended again and again like the op did and they attack something about me that was personal, the friendship is no more. It does not matter to me if they are doing it to be friendly or not. That is why I am no longer confuse like the op.

when is actually beating somebody up over a small comment actually an option? That's just stupid, for anyone. sorry, and perhaps I'm biased, but me and my friends never had to fight things out and we were good friends BECAUSE we could make fun of eachother's weakest points or most private things. yes, sometimes we would push too far, and we would apologize, but we never had to beat each other up and become idiots.

Oh and another thing. Contravene do not put back on that dress and purchase the "101 passing book". You can very well be right that this person is asking for it when he diss the op. But like I said before only the op knows if it was a small comment or not. It may very well be a big deal if it was trans related. It is up to us to define for ourselves what type of friendship we want. Just like we define what is a male or female for ourselves. could be anywhere from masculine to between to femine. Find the friendship that works.

Yes, we are dealing with stereotypes, but some of it is unfortunately true. However, it is equally clear that there are some guys who are more sensitive than others, and more to the point, guys who are more observant of other people's feelings. From my observation, a guy can say something and be totally oblivious to how it is taken. From the above description, it certainly didn't sound like he was trying to be mean. As for joking about manhood things, I see my boys do it all the time with their friends.

Interesting aside, when I allowed myself to not be hurt by my older son's verbiage and behavior and instead started teasing him right back - often somewhat crudely, he started to treat me better - go figure.

I have to agree that this is just a guy's way of joking around with friends. One of my friends can be really insensitive like that too. I remember joking around with him some time ago, and he said that I had 'penis envy' and was jealous of his, well, weener. That hurts when you know he's right, but I also knew he was joking so I just retorted with a "Oh yes, I want a penis alright, but sure as hell not your tiny pencil stick"

I'm sure that was insensitive too, but we both laughed at it and all was well. Face it, guys are pricks, but they usually mean it in a funny way.

I don't see this as a male or female thing at all. It's a boundaries issue between two individual human beings, nothing more, nothing less.

Boundaries come up every so often in every friendship and relationship, either by what is said, something that is done, or even just a simple remark or comment. I think each of us in our own minds draws a line over what is appropriate in a friendship or relationship based on what we know of ourselves and the other person. Everything is cool when it's all within the lines but when it crosses the line that's when it becomes a problem.

It's how you respond when something crosses the line which determines what happens next. You can either let it go and let the friendship or relationship develop further, you can discuss it and share the boundary so it becomes a boundary for the other person as well, or you can end the friendship or relationship.

I'm of the opinion that most people make being trans out to be a far bigger issue than it is in reality. That's what prevents us many times from getting that job, or someone entering into a friendship or relationship with us. They see the 'trans' label, they see it as a major issue, something which they'd rather not deal with, and they're unwilling to see past the issue.

But even when the cisgendered are in a friendship and relationship with us it remains a major issue for them, particularly when it comes to boundaries. Looking at it logically there's just two genders - male and female - so it should be fairly simple, right?

But no it isn't, because to them being trans is a major issue, something the cisgendered have real problems trying to relate to and empathize with, and they often feel that they cannot assume or anticipate where the boundaries are in a friendship or relationship.

But the same is true for us being trans. I feel it's got to be said that some of us make being trans a bigger issue than it is in reality.

But to me being trans doesn't change the fact that one of the biggest factors which determines how other people are going to treat you and relate to you is how you choose to treat them and relate to them. On this point there's no difference between anyone, irrespective of whether they are trans or cis.

If you make being trans a major issue, then so too will everybody you come across.

I tell people that my being trans isn't really all that major or important to me, it's just a label - nothing more - to indicate that I'm female but wasn't born female. I have no desire to be a natural born woman, or to be equal to a natural born woman, because I'm comfortable with who I am and would rather they treated me as they would any individual woman.

I do this as a way of trying to reduce the great big trans issue down to what I feel is it's normal size, just as trivial as having diabetes, or green eyes, or blonde hair. This I've found allows the other person to feel that they can relate to me pretty much the same as any woman.

When it does become an issue I tend to either make a joke of it or dismiss it. I once worked as a volunteer in a night shelter for the homeless and once very successfully and very effectively stopped a fight between a British guy and a Polish guy. I've lived in Poland for many years and speak fluent Polish. These two guys were swinging punches at each other and me as a just under six foot 300lb transsexual woman just completely stunned them. Then someone quipped 'My God, a woman with balls.' and we all laughed. The nickname stuck and I became known as 'the woman with balls'.

I think being honest your friend is probably feeling unsure of the boundaries in your friendship because he sees the trans issue as something major. This is probably why he caught himself or feels that he will offend or upset you.

Reading the thread has made me aware of just how difficult this issue can be if you're FtM in a friendship with a cismale where crossing a boundary inappropriately can quickly lead to a conflict.

I don't think that your friend is doing this intentionally, but is probably unsure of where the boundaries lie in this part of your friendship.

I think much depends on where you decide you stand on this issue and how you want the friendship to develop. You can let it go, and cross the boundary, in which case your friend will assume that such jokes are acceptable. You can discuss it, and share the boundary, so that you friend knows that it's off limits or that making such comments hurts you and upsets you. Or you could simply walk away.

I don't see it as a gender issue because neither of you are generic, but two individual human beings.

Stop overthinking the meaning behind it. He is a male, apparantly he feels comfortable enough and accepts you as another male in his friendship with you to joke around. He was probably going to go there and then feared the statement would hurt you too much and didn't go there. I don't believe there was a cold calculation such as when a woman will say the same thing.

I know these are stereo types but it's also very true to male behavior. Don't expect a teary apology and embracing hug from a guy. Guys just tend to say, "Sorry man." then shake hands and go on. Or what your friend did. Also guys usually talk when in a BS session before they think. In a BS session, the whole goal is to try to get a rise out of your friends just to see what the comeback will be. The more obnoxious, crude, hurtful and insulting you and your friends are with each other the more fun it is. I hate to say this but this is just how guys bond and learn to trust one another. A guy if trying to hurt you will not be so much verbal about it and if they are it will be more along the lines of, "Man, you are one stupid MF". Believe me you'll know from the tone of the voice whether it is just BSing or provocation.

One word of advice, don't go there with ex lovers and so on. It is far better to insult the guy's mother and certain fornication activities than with someone that may have chose you over him. You can if he broke up with her because of another girl or whatever, but if this girl chose you specifically over him it's a big no no. This is really the only thing that I know of that can really hurt a guy emotionally and may actually cause a fistfight between friends. Like I said, I wouldn't even go there.

I'm enjoying the fact so many MtF peeps are bringing past experiences to bare. it's nice to see more trans people that aren't ashamed to make use of their past.

Quote from: tomthom on March 24, 2013, 04:22:15 AM
I'm enjoying the fact so many MtF peeps are bringing past experiences to bare. it's nice to see more trans people that aren't ashamed to make use of their past.

It's good not to be ashamed of our past, because in actuality it makes us who we are today. I would hope if I had a problem concerning female behaviorism and confusion over such that a FTM would jump in and provide insight as to what the meaning may be behind female actions and so on. I really hate to say and will probably be jumped on but not all stereotypical sin't bad, just the ones that come from bad entertainment outlets like Hollywood.

Quote from: tomthom on March 19, 2013, 03:14:22 PM
seriously, you're being way too sensitive about this. that's not underhanded. you'll know when something is underhanded. Thats and if you're going around hooking up with girls he openly likes and likely told you before hand, I'm questioning which friend is the ass.

i asked him and he said he didn't like her i hooked up with her. then he got pissed and admitted to lying when he said he didn't like her. i would never hook up with a girl if i knew it would hurt this guy.

i think everyone is making a bigger deal out of this then i am. im over it, it happened a week ago.