In a past thread, it seemed like the consensus of many of the guys here is that if some sort of proof came out that trans people died 30-40 years earlier than average due to taking hormones, that they'd all transition anyways because living life as a female isn't a life. (We also know that there's quite a bit of suicides in our community.)

With me though, I'd never take hormones if there was proof we died decades earlier from it. I feel like there's so much to live for, there's so many places I want to go, languages I want to learn, people I want to meet, oceans I want to jump in, and being female bodied isn't going to stop me. Part of me does really want to transiton, but I think I could live life being female bodied and still have just as good of a time as if I was male bodied and have people still address me as "she" and by my birthname. I guess part of it might be from my spiritual beliefs that souls are genderless and bodies are just really temporary vessels. I know who I am on the inside so maybe the outside doesn't really bother me to the point of suicide or being able to loose decades of my life to change my physical being which is only temporary and isn't really what defines me?

After coming to Susan's I've heard of way more types of boxes for people to fit in than what I ever heard of previously. I used to just think I was trans, but now I am not so sure since having this almost-(or actual) suicidal dislike for the physical body seems like such a huge part of many people's trans symptoms on here. Not wanting to kill myself if I can't transition or being willing to live as female if somehow a scientific study ever said there's a huge chance you'll die decades earlier than average makes me feel like I am not in the same boat as the other transguys on here.

[Kind of related: Since I am still female at work, the other day I bought a new purse, and it's a designer purse I got cheap at T.J. Maxx, and I finally realized why women like purses so much (besides for being functional). It's like, I've only had crappy clothes, handbags, and shoes before that maybe I've been disliking these female things just because they weren't nice and I had no idea what I was missing out on all this time. ]

Edit to clarify: I do not believe trans people die 30-40 years earlier than average

Quote from: LearnedHand on March 30, 2013, 10:07:53 PM
In a past thread, it seemed like the consensus of many of the guys here is that if some sort of proof came out that trans people died 30-40 years earlier than average due to taking hormones, that they'd all transition anyways because living life as a female isn't a life. (We also know that there's quite a bit of suicides in our community.)

With me though, I'd never take hormones if there was proof we died decades earlier from it. I feel like there's so much to live for, there's so many places I want to go, languages I want to learn, people I want to meet, oceans I want to jump in, and being female bodied isn't going to stop me. Part of me does really want to transiton, but I think I could live life being female bodied and still have just as good of a time as if I was male bodied and have people still address me as "she" and by my birthname. I guess part of it might be from my spiritual beliefs that souls are genderless and bodies are just really temporary vessels. I know who I am on the inside so maybe the outside doesn't really bother me to the point of suicide or being able to loose decades of my life to change my physical being which is only temporary and isn't really what defines me?

After coming to Susan's I've heard of way more types of boxes for people to fit in than what I ever heard of previously. I used to just think I was trans, but now I am not so sure since having this almost-(or actual) suicidal dislike for the physical body seems like such a huge part of many people's trans symptoms on here. Not wanting to kill myself if I can't transition or being willing to live as female if somehow a scientific study ever said there's a huge chance you'll die decades earlier than average makes me feel like I am not in the same boat as the other transguys on here.

[Kind of related: Since I am still female at work, the other day I bought a new purse, and it's a designer purse I got cheap at T.J. Maxx, and I finally realized why women like purses so much (besides for being functional). It's like, I've only had crappy clothes, handbags, and shoes before that maybe I've been disliking these female things just because they weren't nice and I had no idea what I was missing out on all this time. ]

I feel this way sometimes too and I've had a legal name change and have been on T for over a year. I just don't think about it much. I'm 27 years old. No one but a licensed dr or therapist is going to tell me I'm not trans enough to transition. Everyone else can take a hike. I'm not a child and I don't regret my decision and I'm not "playing with hormones" or whatever other BS people trow around. Regardless, I didn't want to kill myself pre-T either. I also didn't always know I was tans. I think what matters is how YOU feel and what's right for you. Talk to a professional. Not people online to validate your feelings. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this, either. There are a lot of people saying negative things and spreading misinformation on the internet about transitioning and who "should really be transitioning". I call crap. Talk to someone and be honest and explain how you feel. A good therapist will help you and help you make a decision about what is right. No one online can tell you how to feel or how you should transition. Remember that.

honestly, I think something else is going on in their heads when they think of suicide(a possible predisposition towards it).

I, like you, find that other things in life are worth living for, regardless of how bothersome being trans is in my head. Hopefully others can come to see this, whether or not transitioning is an option.

Quote from: LearnedHand on March 30, 2013, 10:07:53 PM
In a past thread, it seemed like the consensus of many of the guys here is that if some sort of proof came out that trans people died 30-40 years earlier than average due to taking hormones, that they'd all transition anyways because living life as a female isn't a life. (We also know that there's quite a bit of suicides in our community.)

When people say that they probably do so because they're still young and decades off your life seems tolerable if you're going to still live into your 60's or something. I mean I don't think I would take them if I knew it meant dieing when I was in my 30's or 40's, lol.

I'm also not suicidal, and my dysphoria is bearable. (Though progessing as I age)

Quote from: tomthom on March 30, 2013, 10:28:39 PM
honestly, I think something else is going on in their heads when they think of suicide(a possible predisposition towards it).

I, like you, find that other things in life are worth living for, regardless of how bothersome being trans is in my head. Hopefully others can come to see this, whether or not transitioning is an option.

I think that's bullcrap.  Just because you could live a certain way, or find things to be happy about, doesn't mean every does or can.  That's what severe depression can do to you. 

I seriously doubt that that statistic is at all true. Reminds me of a recent post where some doctor who seemed to be enabled by your (or someone else's?) parents to make a very strong statement against being trans to convince their child. I think that it has been pretty well established that cross hormones expose you to the benefits (and risks) of that gender's hormones. For instance, you would thru T have a higher risk of certain things (heart attacks, etc.) and lower of other things (dementia, breast cancer), etc.
Since many men die of heart attacks you can mitigate those risks thru diet and exercise. Men don't live quite as long as women, so it's *possible* you might live a shorter time (not 30-40 years though) than if you had continued-- but I don't think that's entirely clear.

There are indeed many ways to be female (or male) or perhaps not gendered at all. I lived most of my life (it will never be otherwise) in a sort of androgynous state. I was NOT suicidal or anything at all. I think it is way way simplistic that all trans people could NOT live at all (would commit suicide) if they had to live in a female body any more. We are all unique and have our own stories as to how to got there.

If you really think you are trans because you hated the bad things you got as female (I seriously doubt this) save a little money and splurge and see how this makes you feel. You may actually have just gotten a rush from spending money and not really from "nice things".


--Jay

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 30, 2013, 10:36:34 PM
I think that's bullcrap.  Just because you could live a certain way, or find things to be happy about, doesn't mean every does or can.  That's what severe depression can do to you.

I have a family history of severe depression. My grandfather left his family for 9 months and didn't leave a hotel room for it. It's on both sides and all my siblings and myself have it.

welcome to the "deal with it" club.

Quote from: tomthom on March 30, 2013, 10:42:32 PM
I have a family history of severe depression. My grandfather left his family for 9 months and didn't leave a hotel room for it. It's on both sides and all my siblings and myself have it.

welcome to the "deal with it" club.

Just because you could "deal with it" doesn't mean everyone can.  This kind of flippant attitude is the very one that is so hurtful to trans people who deal with severe depression.  I know when I was in my deepest depression the thing I loved being told most was how I should just "deal with it."  I have to say, it feels as though you probably know very little of what actual depression feels like if you think good advice is to "deal with it".

I only say that because I've been there. there is no other way to get over it other than to move forward or to work through the mud and the gunk and the self hatred and every other self depricating voice in your head until it fixes itself or you see a way out of that episode.

It's not fun, it's not easy, but that's how it is. sorry if me being matter of fact with my own experience is "Flippant." There simply aren't better ways at the moment to deal with these things.

I think you can still be trans and not transition. Transitioning is all about being happy with yourself if you don't feel the need to take hormones or change your body there is nothing wrong with that. When I was a teenager I was suicidal but it wasn't because I was trans it was because my family/friends wouldn't accept the fact I was trans. I don't think whether your suicidal or not determines whether your trans or not. Because right now I'm sure not suicidal and can't see myself being suicidal again. But I'm still very much trans and my decision to transition did not come from the idea that I have to transition or die! My decision was based on the thought that when I do die do I want to be able to say I was true to myself or that I lived a lie for other people and did what was expected of me. Forget labels just focus on the question of am I happy or not?          

BTW, you might be interested in this:
http://www.genderodyssey.org/elders/

Apparently there are so many elder ftms (there are many senior mtfs, but this is pretty much a trans-masculine conference) that they have a special track for elders. So apparently we are not dying out in droves.

--Jay

Quote from: tomthom on March 30, 2013, 10:49:22 PM
I only say that because I've been there. there is no other way to get over it other than to move forward or to work through the mud and the gunk and the self hatred and every other self depricating voice in your head until it fixes itself or you see a way out of that episode.

It's not fun, it's not easy, but that's how it is. sorry if me being matter of fact with my own experience is "Flippant." There simply aren't better ways at the moment to deal with these things.

Again, just to repeat what Wheat thins said...there is a whole spectrum of depression...some easily fly right out of it, others have to "work through the mud...and self hatred...until it fixes itself", and others simply cannot do that. Or perhaps they can, years from now, but no one can foresee the future.

Years of living in The Pit...cannot be described. It must be felt...but if you feel it, you're at death's door already.

That being said...being suicidal does not mean you are--or are not--trans. Not being suicidal also does not mean anything, relative to being trans. Just like depression, being trans is a whole spectrum, in which ones weighs the pros and cons of transitioning.

Will I kill myself?

Will I lose my family, my job, my friends?

Will I be homeless?

Will I be happy?

Will I die from the hormones?

Will I be pretty (or handsome)?

etc. After all due consideration, one decides to transition--or not. But, one is still transgendered, even if no transition takes place.

I don't think being suicidal over it is a symptom (for lack of a better word) at all.  There's lots of things that can heighten or lower the risk of suicide.  For example, do their parents and family support and accept them?  Do they live in an area that is accepting of transgenders?  And other simple things like age, peers, confidence, shyness, and social relationships can all have a positive or negative effect.

I think to lump all trans into having to be suicidal is a mistake.  Everyone has different ranges of emotion and experience.  For some people, their identity issues could make for the worst emotional pain they've experienced.  For others, maybe something else in their past exceeds that and it makes their issues more manageable.  Life experience and emotional stability is different for everyone.  It doesn't make suicidal people weak, I'm not suggesting that at all, it just means that different people handle different things...you guessed it...differently. 

Everyone's experience with everything in life is different.  If you've ever gone through bereavement maybe you'll understand my anger when someone tries to say something like "I feel your pain."  No you don't!  You don't know what kind of pain I'm going through.  You don't know the relationship I had to the person.  You don't know what's running through my brain.  For trans individuals, some will hit roadblocks or feel so depressed it makes them suicidal.  And some will hit the same roadblocks and maybe even feel depressed, but suicidal thoughts don't enter their mind.  They could be facing the exact same situation and just react differently.  There's just no right way to react, only your way!

Quote from: tomthom on March 30, 2013, 10:28:39 PM
honestly, I think something else is going on in their heads when they think of suicide(a possible predisposition towards it).

I, like you, find that other things in life are worth living for, regardless of how bothersome being trans is in my head. Hopefully others can come to see this, whether or not transitioning is an option.

Well, there's a lot of factors in that. Sometimes dysphoria is absolutely crippling to people, sometimes there is something else and being trans is the last straw for them, so to speak. I know I have self-esteem and abandonment issues that make things harder in addition to the never-ending list of health problems, and I know that I would never go through with the dark thoughts I get, but they can be very tough to ride out sometimes and it takes a lot of rationalizing to talk myself down from it instead of pitching a fit and doing something stupid.

You aren't feeling suicidal over being trans? That's great! It's great that you're mentally in a good place considering that, and it's great that you would be okay not going on hormones or living as a female. Does that automatically "disqualify" you from being trans?
Of course it doesn't. There's a lot of hair-splitting with terms, but transgender is just literally transcending ones' gender: you don't identify as your birth sex and only that at any point to any degree, you fall into the transgender category. Transsexual would be transcending the natal sex, altering the body to be congruent with the mind. And you know what? Whatever you identify as and however you approach that, it's okay. You don't win a special badge for being transsexual versus transgender versus cisgender. You are what you are is all, and you don't need to qualify that with a checklist. It's a good thing, being able to look at the potential path of living as a female without altering things via hormones and whatnot, because it leaves that option open. Unfortunately it isn't like that for everyone, so rather than trying to find your niche through a million "boxes", embrace that gift and enjoy life no matter what you may decide is right, because in the end your decision is the final call on what needs to be done.

I have the same belief that the soul is genderless. My belief is that the soul is a person's energy and life force then there's the mind which interprets the energy and finally the body which is the vessel for it all. Gender is just a physical and societal construct so of course the soul isn't going to have anything to do with it.

But enough of that.

I wouldn't plan on transitioning either if I knew it would shorten my lifespan so drastically. I've been coping with being in the wrong body for 22 years now so I would just continue coping. I have too many people in my life who love and need me. Does that make me less of a man? I don't think so. If anything, I think it makes me more of one because it means that I would be willing to sacrifice a huge part of myself for the people I love.

I've been asking myself the same question for some time now! (hence my question regarding studies and work). I know a few trans people and most of them had depression, suicidal thoughts to such an extend they could not function well anymore.

This made me think because like you, I don't have any of these thoughts. But then I figured it is likely a coping strategy. Some people cope with depressive thoughts in different ways. We just don't cope with the dysphoria (and other factors that might cause depression) by thinking about suicide.

I also figured that life is too short (how cliche, I know). The only thing certain in life is death, so why hasten it? I'd rather sit out the ride and see what happens. You never know what comes on your path!

And about the 30/40 year lifespan decrease...I don't know what I would do if that really was the case. I like life. I want to see the world, taste different cultures, see nature and learn more about it. But not transitioning would mean I would never find love, stay alone forever with a body I'd hate and grosses me out...So I think I would still do it. It's weighing the pros and cons as stated before, which is not easy. Thankfully the lifespan decrease was a load of bull, so the choice is easy. 

 I would go off hormones if I knew my lifespan would be lessened by so much. I plan to live to be a hundred, and ninety falls short of the mark.

Now, that's not to say that I can't still transition. Hormones are very helpful for one who wishes to present as female, but FFS, clever make-up, and other such things can also fix presentation issues. In even the worst possible future, I believe I would still be able to present as at least androgynous.

Could I live without transitioning, though? Probably. I would be a strange and flamboyant man, and I would probably be returned to the dark place I was before all of this. It's not so bad, though, because I have at least learned to be myself - and I would never stop being who I am, even if I had to de-transition. Being thought of as weird almost sounds fun.

You post this:

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 30, 2013, 04:00:11 PM
Thank you for editing that out.  It's best to realize when talking about an issue as sensitive as bottom surgery and people's bodies respectful language should be used.  Personal opinion is not an excuse to use crass, disrespectful language.  Opinions can be voiced in a respectful manner through the use of "I" statements, (ex: "I do not like the surgical results of [whatever procedure]")

Then this is your very next post?

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on March 30, 2013, 10:36:34 PM
I think that's bullcrap.  Just because you could live a certain way, or find things to be happy about, doesn't mean every does or can.  That's what severe depression can do to you.

Thanks for the chuckle! Hugs, Devlyn

Thanks for all the nice responses. I know not 100% of all trans people are suicidal or depressed, and I've haven't seen any surveys/studies that give a percentage. But just from the casual viewing of Susan's or other places, it does seem like quite a number are and that's a powerful fueling force in people's decision to transition.

I have to say that I (lol not everyone else) am kind of with tomthom with dealing with depression though, I am more like her. I just deal with things and find a way to get over it. I've been through other crap in my life, and I've just found ways to "suck it and deal" <---- that's what some girl I knew told one of my friends a few years ago and now that's what I always jokingly tell myself when I think I am dwelling on something too long; it makes me laugh, and then I move on.

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on March 31, 2013, 07:28:35 AM
Could I live without transitioning, though? Probably. I would be a strange and flamboyant man, and I would probably be returned to the dark place I was before all of this. It's not so bad, though, because I have at least learned to be myself - and I would never stop being who I am, even if I had to de-transition. Being thought of as weird almost sounds fun.

I think that's more of what I am trying to figure out now, transition or just be a different sort of female? I should go see a therapist but I am so busy right now, though it's on my list of New Year's resolutions. Though I forget who said it, I think it was Darrin (?), but yeah I am not looking just to posters to say if I am trans or not.

Quote from: aleon515 on March 30, 2013, 10:57:25 PM
BTW, you might be interested in this:
http://www.genderodyssey.org/elders/

Apparently there are so many elder ftms (there are many senior mtfs, but this is pretty much a trans-masculine conference) that they have a special track for elders. So apparently we are not dying out in droves.

--Jay

I knew we weren't all dying 30-40 years early when I wrote the post. Especially since the average lifespan in the US is in the 70s, so since many people start T in their 20s or 30s, they'd drop dead in their 30s or 40s. It was more of a hypothetical.


BTW have a Happy Easter everyone! I am going to torture my dog by putting bunny ears on her and letting the baby chase her around. 

Yeah- on the issue of hormones affecting lifespan, I honestly don't have reason to care about losing a couple of decades. The doctors are all convinced that despite my growing list of health issues (many of which are common in a much older age group), I will live well past 100, and I believe them. Especially given some of the superhuman genetic things that go on with both sides- I have one grandfather who is healthy and fit with a good blood sugar level, his diet consists of bowls upon bowls of ice cream for every meal, and another whose heart somehow performed its own bypass surgery; the surgeons were amazed. Often people in my family passed away because a doctor wouldn't believe they had a blood infection or something like that because they were too "healthy", whatever that means- and then there's me, they think I age a bit slower than your average bear anyway. So take your 30-40 years, Death, I want a male body.

Happy Easter, LH and others! You'll have to show us pictures of said torture, or even a video