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Need help understanding androgyne transition

Started by ford, March 17, 2013, 12:31:27 PM

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ford

Hello all,

I've been perusing this part of the forum for some time but  never posted. I identify as just a little male of androgyne I suppose. Well, NOT female might be more accurate, I don't know. I'm currently trying to reason my way through how far I need to transition. I have changed my name to something neutral - that was a huge help. I dress more or less male. I'm always read as female, though, mostly due to my voice, and this troubles me greatly. I want to take hormones...definitely want to lower the voice, lose the girly shape a bit. I want to lose my female bits. No question there.

However: the idea of being some burly, hairy male makes me really uncomfortable. I feel that if I had been born as a male, there is a good chance I'd be trying to 'transition' more towards the center. I don't like body hair. At all. I don't want to be big or overly muscled. My mannerisms etc have never been distinctly gendered either way.

What it boils down to is that I feel so darn neutral...well definitely NOT female, like I said. What sort of transition possibilities does that leave me with? Did any of you consider hormones when you weren't 100% sure you'd love all the side effects? What are some things you thought about when deciding how to transition to androgyne? Have any of you with a gender identity close to gender neutral, or agender (not sure of the distinction) just learned to live with your birth sex characteristics?

I feel a little stuck. I'm not female. But I don't know how to get to where I want to go without overshooting and ending up too masculine. I can't take this butch female image I've been presenting - it's completely wrong! I'm just a sensitive, artsy, quiet, thoughtful guy. Not a man (and everything associated with that)...just a guy..a dude..a person. Does this remotely resemble anyone's experience?

Any thoughts appreciated. If you have been following my posts lately it might become apparent I'm in deep manic reflection mode/borderline panic over my asexuality and genderqueerness, so please bear with me!
"Hey you, sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
  •  

ativan

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,116344.80.html

This is a pretty good thread that covers a decent amount of time.
It is an interesting read.
I'm MAAB, so I really don't have much help.
But there most certainly are others here who can answer your questions.
I haven't read your other posts for a personal reason,
but it sounds like you are at the right place for answers to your questions.
First words about HRT from me, is that low dose HRT is not the same as just lower doses.
Theres a little more to it than that. I really stress having professional help.
Both medically and from a gender therapist who knows what non-binary is.
Ativan
  •  

Keira

Quote
I identify as just a little male of androgyne I suppose. Well, NOT female might be more accurate, I don't know.

I've been feeling the same thing...except I feel a "little female of androgyne". And I also know what you mean about feeling androgyne-female (male in your case), I feel like I'm in the middle but I lack the male half of being androgyne. Either that or my male half is just effeminate. I'm just as puzzled as you.

Quote
I'm currently trying to reason my way through how far I need to transition.

It takes time and thought.

Quote
However: the idea of being some burly, hairy male makes me really uncomfortable. I feel that if I had been born as a male, there is a good chance I'd be trying to 'transition' more towards the center. I don't like body hair. At all. I don't want to be big or overly muscled. My mannerisms etc have never been distinctly gendered either way.
[\quote]

Same for me, I never wanted breasts or to lose my basic male function (although it would be nice to have a lowered sex drive). I could deal with breasts and the other things if it resulted in lower body hair and losing the risk of male pattern baldness.

Quote
What sort of transition possibilities does that leave me with? Did any of you consider hormones when you weren't 100% sure you'd love all the side effects? What are some things you thought about when deciding how to transition to androgyne? Have any of you with a gender identity close to gender neutral, or agender (not sure of the distinction) just learned to live with your birth sex characteristics?

Like I said, it takes time and deep thinking. Big decisions aren't decided overnight, as you probably already understand.

Quote
I feel a little stuck. I'm not female. But I don't know how to get to where I want to go without overshooting and ending up too masculine. I can't take this butch female image I've been presenting - it's completely wrong! I'm just a sensitive, artsy, quiet, thoughtful guy. Not a man (and everything associated with that)...just a guy..a dude..a person. Does this remotely resemble anyone's experience?

Yes, I don't want to be called a "woman" after or during transition, I would prefer girl because it only alludes to my mental being and not the cultural expectations of gender roles.

Quote
Any thoughts appreciated. If you have been following my posts lately it might become apparent I'm in deep manic reflection mode/borderline panic over my asexuality and genderqueerness, so please bear with me!

It's all good :)
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ford

Thanks Ativan. That was an interesting thread.

I am seeing a gender therapist currently. She tells me that in her experience, people seem to know pretty quickly after taking hormones whether it is 'right' for them. That is, they either feel an increased sense of well-being (reduction of 'noise' as discussed in the thread you linked) or they sense something is 'wrong.' In her experience guiding trans folks, only one person felt hormones were wrong and quit right after starting them. However, almost all of her cases were MAAB, and I'm curious if FAAB folks starting T experience that same initial sense of rightness or wrongness that MAAB folks starting T-blockers or E do. She isn't pushing me to get hormones, of course, but she is trying to get me thinking about what my transition will entail.

Any non-binary FAAB folk out there who started T (if there are any you!)...did you know after the first few shots that it was the right way to go? Or was your mind made up for certain beforehand? I'm wondering if I start T thinking, 'yes, I'm pretty sure this is right for me,' is it possible that after a bit I'll be thinking 'Yes! This was absolutely necessary! Why did it take me so long to choose to start!' Or does that just not happen to people? Is it just T or no T - male or female - one or the other? Makes me so frustrated I just want to chuck the towel in sometimes.

Sky-Blue: I appreciate your thoughts. I've been following your threads for awhile. We do indeed seem to be in a similar state of punishing self-reflection. I hope we both find a state of being where we can feel at peace.
"Hey you, sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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ativan

@ford (and anyone else considering this out there),

First thing, always make your decision a good one. If you are having doubts, wait.
*Keep in mind that most non-binary people initially start them to help with dysphoria.
It's going to change how you deal with things emotionally.
Most people go through a range of stuff, deal with it, and move forward.
If you're having any doubts, you probably should be digging for more information.

Low dose T is considerably less than full transition dose from what I understand.
And there are different ways to take it, something to consider.
What works for one person isn't always going to work for another person.
I think full transition starts with a lower dose and builds up, but I could be wrong.
The reason is that T is pretty powerful stuff at full transition levels.
If you feel comfortable, you could try some low dose and see what you think.
You already have some in your system, just as males have some estrogen.
The difference is the ratio, which has a fair amount of range to it.

If or when you are ready, ask your Dr to explain how that works.
The Dr should do a blood draw and test for total and free T.
That gives you a base to work from, as far as what your dose should be.
Testing levels should be done regularly, just to be safe.
More importantly, they should be able to rattle off what low dose HRT is.
If they can't tell you, move on to the next Dr.
It's relatively new compared to full transition, and not all Dr's are knowledgeable.
The information is available to them, and it's important for them to know that it is not a matter of just a lower dose.
They still have to keep an eye on things to make sure you're doing well.
They need to be aware of the things to look for. So do you. Very important.

From the people I know who have tried T, they knew pretty quick if it was what they wanted.
You can always stop. But at some point, and YMMV, the changes aren't reversible.
But with low dose, it takes longer for those changes to take place.

If you go into it looking for physical changes, you're going to be using a higher dose.
And again, make sure that the Dr knows what to be looking for.
Exactly how much low dose, higher dose and full transition doses are going to be, will change over time.
It should always be your decision, but you should also base it on a knowledgeable recommendation from your Dr.

You should have a clear picture of what you want to achieve.
This can change over time, and there's a good chance that it will.
But you need to know beforehand what your initial plan is going to be.
Ativan
  •  

brainiac

Quote from: ford on March 17, 2013, 12:31:27 PM
What it boils down to is that I feel so darn neutral...well definitely NOT female, like I said. What sort of transition possibilities does that leave me with? Did any of you consider hormones when you weren't 100% sure you'd love all the side effects? What are some things you thought about when deciding how to transition to androgyne? Have any of you with a gender identity close to gender neutral, or agender (not sure of the distinction) just learned to live with your birth sex characteristics?

I feel a little stuck. I'm not female. But I don't know how to get to where I want to go without overshooting and ending up too masculine. I can't take this butch female image I've been presenting - it's completely wrong! I'm just a sensitive, artsy, quiet, thoughtful guy. Not a man (and everything associated with that)...just a guy..a dude..a person. Does this remotely resemble anyone's experience?
I'm kind of similar to you in terms of where I am on the gender identity spectrum. I totally get the "definitely not female" thing--I am not a girl or woman despite my female body. But I identify somewhere hazy between male and neutral. I also don't like the term "man" for myself (and obviously not "woman"), but I like terms like dude, guy, person. I also see myself as the "sensitive guy" type--my tomboy behavior as a kid was the nerdy kind, not the rough n' tumble athletic kind.

However, I am the example you mentioned--I've learned to live with and accept my female body. I get some body dysphoria (my "mental map" of my body is definitely male), but I've been able to reduce that both through letting go of feeling like I needed to pass to be treated as a guy and through male labels for my body parts + binding/packing/dressing more masculinely. Having a supportive partner really helps. There are a few effects from T that I would like, but I have decided for a number of reasons that it wouldn't be worth it for me. One main reason is that I now can enjoy presenting in a feminine way (I see it the same way as I see drag) in addition to masculine and neutral, and being female-bodied allows me more flexibility in gender expression in our restrictive society. I feel like I need a full spectrum of gender expression available to me in order to be happy and feel whole, even though my identity is settled in masculine-of-center. The only thing I'm considering changing now is name/pronouns to something more gender-neutral.

I think for me the main thing is that I can still be treated how I want to, as a guy, by people I know (I was just at a party with my boyfriend's bro friends and they absolutely treat me like one of the guys even wearing my "guyliner" and dressing like a girl. It feels great). Strangers often get the wrong impression and treat me like a girl because I look like one, and it does bother me somewhat, but I'm working toward being able to correct them. For now, I can deal with that gender role dysphoria through remembering that the people I actually care about, who actually know me, treat me how I want to be treated and "really know" me.

It's tough sometimes as a non-binary person to not worry about being "trans enough" to feel legitimate, but I know who I am and I know what makes me happy. I think that's what's important--weighing your options and figuring out which parts of expression make you feel happy and whole.
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Brightest After Dawn

Quote from: ford on March 17, 2013, 12:31:27 PM
Hello all,

I've been perusing this part of the forum for some time but  never posted. I identify as just a little male of androgyne I suppose. Well, NOT female might be more accurate, I don't know. I'm currently trying to reason my way through how far I need to transition. I have changed my name to something neutral - that was a huge help. I dress more or less male. I'm always read as female, though, mostly due to my voice, and this troubles me greatly. I want to take hormones...definitely want to lower the voice, lose the girly shape a bit. I want to lose my female bits. No question there.

However: the idea of being some burly, hairy male makes me really uncomfortable. I feel that if I had been born as a male, there is a good chance I'd be trying to 'transition' more towards the center. I don't like body hair. At all. I don't want to be big or overly muscled. My mannerisms etc have never been distinctly gendered either way.

What it boils down to is that I feel so darn neutral...well definitely NOT female, like I said. What sort of transition possibilities does that leave me with? Did any of you consider hormones when you weren't 100% sure you'd love all the side effects? What are some things you thought about when deciding how to transition to androgyne? Have any of you with a gender identity close to gender neutral, or agender (not sure of the distinction) just learned to live with your birth sex characteristics?

I am still considering hormones, but I'm sort of a similar boat to you in that I don't want it to go far. I was born with a male body. But basically I don't really want a curvy body...it just doesn't feel right to me. What I more want is a softening of features.

I'm hairy myself, unfortunately, but looking into getting that removed. (A lot of natal men with no intention of transitioning do this too, and have done so in many cultures, so I don't think that means anything to not want to have hair...it's not necessarily gender related.) Luckily I'm pretty skinny, which for some reason gets a guy read as more femme, but I also have a prominent brow. Nothing you can really do about that without expensive surgery.

QuoteI feel a little stuck. I'm not female. But I don't know how to get to where I want to go without overshooting and ending up too masculine. I can't take this butch female image I've been presenting - it's completely wrong! I'm just a sensitive, artsy, quiet, thoughtful guy. Not a man (and everything associated with that)...just a guy..a dude..a person. Does this remotely resemble anyone's experience?

This would describe me, more or less, except that I'm male-bodied. Though, perhaps because of that, I'm more comfortable being referred to in more girly terms than male terms. Maybe because people don't apply female terms to me as often. I shrivel up whenever someone talks about what they perceive my gender to be, especially when they call me a man. I don't like terms like "guy" either, but "man" bothers me the most. (I don't know why myself, but let's admit...there are a lot of negative images associated with masculinity in the media, few of which I can relate to ontop of that even if I am being honest. And I am one to admit to my negative, male-typical traits when they actually do apply to me.)

It is something I am "learning to live with" for the most part, though it isn't my ideal. Let's remember, most people see the world in terms of two genders. To get someone to read you as andro, even if they are down with people like us, is hard because most people are trying to classify you, subconsciously and naturally as well as culturally, all the time. People in general seem to be wired to think in terms of two genders. And yeah, it is a scary thing...not knowing exactly what hormones will do. In your case it might be particularly scary, since the effects of testosterone are less reversible. (Body hair can be permanently removed, mind you.)
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ford

Thanks for the replies everyone. It's a great comfort to know that others are pondering similar things.

I have a therapist appt this weekend, so I'll be discussing this stuff there in full, but in the meantime I've been doing some serious thinking. Here are my basic conclusions:

- I am not female
- I do not wish to be perceived as female
- My current presentation (masculine) is read as female 99% of the time (despite binding, name change, etc)
- I have a good fix on who I am inside, and I like me  ;D
- I want my exterior to reflect my neutral self, erring on the male side of things.
- Therefore, something needs to change. I can't keep going in my present state.

So right now I'm reading up on T...everything I can get my hands on. I need to look at the undesired effects, and decide whether the discomfort they may cause will outweigh the benefits. As was pointed out, hair can be removed  :P or there's always the chance that it will grow on me (pun not intended).

Oddly, top surgery is something I don't really have any conflicting thoughts about. I want it. Immediately.

Brainiac - I have to admit, I admire your ability to detach from how people you don't really care about perceive you. When I read about someone who can do that, I feel a bit jealous, and I always pause and think, 'could I do that?' I'm finding that I can't. I understand the desire to be more flexible in presentation though; makes a lot of sense.

Brightest after dawn - it seems to me that a lot of the MAAB non-binary folks who pursue physical transitions opt for low dose hormones for that 'softening' effect. Perhaps that will become a more commonly accepted thing as non-binary presentations get a little more deserved attention
"Hey you, sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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ativan

While you're gathering information on T, you might find it interesting how other hormones work, as well.
It's the interaction of them that is pretty interesting.
The more informed you are, the better your decisions are going to be.
I know that's an obvious statement, but it's easy to overlook things at times.

You all have very good information and perspectives.
Ativan
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brainiac

Quote from: ford on March 22, 2013, 05:13:04 PMBrainiac - I have to admit, I admire your ability to detach from how people you don't really care about perceive you. When I read about someone who can do that, I feel a bit jealous, and I always pause and think, 'could I do that?' I'm finding that I can't. I understand the desire to be more flexible in presentation though; makes a lot of sense.
It took me a long time and a lot of help to get to that point, and it's definitely not for everyone. I do find it frustrating and painful sometimes--especially when it's gender stereotyping that goes beyond female labels--and it does essentially guarantee that I'll have some dysphoria in my life. Either way, I'm glad that you're finding out what's right for you. :) It sounds like those are some great points to bring to your therapist.
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ativan

Emotional detachment is something that is brought up often around here.
In the sense of presenting yourself as you want to.
It's a scary prospect to face a world that might reject you or worse.
But it's something that in the end, is going to do more for you than most everything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_detachment

In this article, they write about it in two different senses. It's the second sense that you are looking for.
It is a learned response. It just takes practice.
Or you can learn it the hard way by going through a traumatic event.
I don't recommend that for obvious reasons. It can go very wrong.

An extreme example of training to be able to detach, is what military and law enforcement practice.
By simulating the conditions when you need to use a weapon, it allows you to do it without thinking about it first.
In other words, without hesitation. It also helps with the immediate response mechanisms afterwards.
Firefighters use it to be able to go into a burning building. Totally against their brains screaming not to.
But they all practice it first. Over and over.

Of course you don't have to do anything that drastic. But think about how that's accomplished.
It's just repetitively going over it or doing it in a practice mode.
Just figure out what it is that you find the need to detach from, and practice it in 'baby steps'.

If you have ever overcome any kind of fear, you already know on some level how it works.
You do it when you learn to drive. When you pulled yourself together and asked someone out on a date.
I learned it by doing the 'I dare you' kind of stuff when I was in High School.
It allowed me to do, without much hesitation, 'dangerous' things later in life.
(*well thought out and with practice)

But regardless, it takes practice and time.
You have already done it.
Think about those times growing up that you just had to pull it together and do whatever.
It's like that. Except with practice.

Adrenaline Junkie  ;)
Ativan
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Mayonnaise

This rings true with me, except the one thing I know is I do NOT want top surgery. I am ok with my small breasts, though I feel much better in an undershirt than a bra. My body disphoria is below the belt. I should have a protuberance. I don't. I don't feel the lack of testes, just of a phalus, nor do I have a problem with my current anatomy... it's just MISSING something. It's a low grade dysphoria that's always there, but never oppressive... just makes me wince when I say something like "Suck my ****" in an argument and someone reminds me I don't have one.

I'd love to be able to do something to increase protuberance, even to just a few centimeters, like an inch or something. I'm nervous about surgery, and as a vocalist I worry what effect T would have on my voice, so I'm trying pumping right now, and considering VCH piercing, on the grounds that a piece of properly jewelery might transmit touch sensation from outside my labia, to my woefully non-protruding... bit.

8^)
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brainiac

Quote from: Mayonnaise on April 04, 2013, 02:10:49 PM
This rings true with me, except the one thing I know is I do NOT want top surgery. I am ok with my small breasts, though I feel much better in an undershirt than a bra. My body disphoria is below the belt. I should have a protuberance. I don't. I don't feel the lack of testes, just of a phalus, nor do I have a problem with my current anatomy... it's just MISSING something. It's a low grade dysphoria that's always there, but never oppressive... just makes me wince when I say something like "Suck my ****" in an argument and someone reminds me I don't have one.
Oddly enough, I also have the same dysphoria issue. I'm okay with my small moobs (as I can squash 'em down with a binder if I want to or push 'em up with a bra if I want to) and I don't really have the feeling that I'm "missing" testes, but I feel like my d**k is way too small for what it feels like my brain is telling me should be there. The discomfort is strongest during *ahem* activities directly involving it, but I also have a low-grade background dysphoria around it, to the point that I unconsciously cross my legs like a dude. I'm also not interested in surgery or going on T... so lemme know how that goes! :)

(Also, welcome to the forum! I am also a female-bodied, pansexual, and monoromantic androgyne. )
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Mayonnaise

Thanks Brianiac!!! Nice to meet another person with similar feelings.

I'd go right for the piercing like NOW 'cause I'm getting impatient with pumping, but I'm in the middle of laser hair removal on just about everything right now... (I HATE BODY HAIR) and I do NOT want to find out what happens when one of those lasers hits a genital piercing. NO.

8^P
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ativan

Quote from: Mayonnaise on April 04, 2013, 06:18:28 PM
Thanks Brianiac!!! Nice to meet another person with similar feelings.

I'd go right for the piercing like NOW 'cause I'm getting impatient with pumping, but I'm in the middle of laser hair removal on just about everything right now... (I HATE BODY HAIR) and I do NOT want to find out what happens when one of those lasers hits a genital piercing. NO.
Unless it's color is reactive to the wavelength of the laser, it shouldn't do anything. If it's shiny at all, even less so.
It would need to be dark colored like hair for anything to happen. I don't think the tech would want a reflection, either.
They should be wearing glasses that have special lens's that stop that wavelength of light, but still, I would think they would be cautious, not only for themselves, but for you, also.
Sounds like it might be a way to lessen dysphoria, without having the effects of T if you don't want to go that route.
Dysphoria can be such a nasty feeling.
Ativan
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Mayonnaise

It really can be... I went to a head shop the other day with a friend to get some Mu'assel, and thought I'd see if they had Mr. Softee in stock for a packer, but no.

I checked with my piercer on the cost for the VCH, and I'm going to have to save up, so for now, it's still the pump.

8^(
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Mayonnaise

Pumping is getting me noplace, and I can't afford the VCH piercing yet.

Had a super bad experience at a batchelorette party. Actually the party was great, it was the morning after when I got called to the mat for making others uncomfortable by the act of being andro and pan, and flirting around with a lesbian friend (whom they also blame imagine if they knew she was AMAB. They would have freaked.) Apparently "no one wants to see that."

Getting shoved toward the closet just makes me want to go the other way, so I up and ordered Mr. Limpy.

Kind of looking forward to packing.

8^P
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jesseofthenorth

Quote from: Mayonnaise on June 04, 2013, 10:44:52 AM

Had a super bad experience at a batchelorette party. Actually the party was great, it was the morning after when I got called to the mat for making others uncomfortable by the act of being andro and pan, and flirting around with a lesbian friend (whom they also blame imagine if they knew she was AMAB. They would have freaked.) Apparently "no one wants to see that."

Getting shoved toward the closet just makes me want to go the other way, so I up and ordered Mr. Limpy.

Kind of looking forward to packing.

8^P

Yeah i am pretty sure whoever said it was wrong when they said no one wants to see that. In anycase,  Sorry that happened to you. Not really in love with the closet other people keep trying to shiove ME into either.
I have been mulling over the idea of packing but I think my boobs are just too big at this point to pull it off. Good luck to you though ;)
Still trying to find all the facets of my identity now that I am firmly and forever out of my closet. The question is: who am I really?
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androgynoid

Quote from: ford on March 22, 2013, 05:13:04 PM
- I am not female
- I do not wish to be perceived as female
- My current presentation (masculine) is read as female 99% of the time (despite binding, name change, etc)
- I have a good fix on who I am inside, and I like me  ;D
- I want my exterior to reflect my neutral self, erring on the male side of things.
- Therefore, something needs to change. I can't keep going in my present state.

You and I sound a lot alike. :) I view myself as completely neutral in terms of gender; I don't lean one way or the other internally at all. However, I present pretty masculine most of the time, but am read as female, even after top surgery. My gender has been constant since I started questioning it: completely neutral, without even leaning in either direction. But if I had to pick a side of the binary I'd choose male.

Quote from: ford on March 22, 2013, 05:13:04 PM
So right now I'm reading up on T...everything I can get my hands on. I need to look at the undesired effects, and decide whether the discomfort they may cause will outweigh the benefits. As was pointed out, hair can be removed  :P or there's always the chance that it will grow on me (pun not intended).

Oddly, top surgery is something I don't really have any conflicting thoughts about. I want it. Immediately.

Not odd. :) Or if it is, I'm super-weird too. Top surgery was the one transition-related thing I knew I had to have. The change of name and pronouns came after that, and I'm just now in the process of getting a T prescription fifteen months after top surgery.

I have my reservations about T as well. Mostly the voice. I'm not planning on taking T permanently, and I know that in six months or a year my voice probably won't drop too much, but I'm still honestly a little nervous. I'm consoling myself by telling myself that if trans women can train their voices up into a female sound, I should be able to keep mine from changing too much.

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Nero

Quote from: androgynoid on June 09, 2013, 11:21:10 AM
and I know that in six months or a year my voice probably won't drop too much,

Where did you hear this? The voice starts changing within the first couple weeks. It's one of the first effects and will most certainly do the most dropping within the first few months. I'm not even sure it drops much further at all after that. Basically, you'll pretty much have the voice you're going to end up with within the first months. It may or may not lower further afterward but the bulk of the change takes place early.

QuoteI'm consoling myself by telling myself that if trans women can train their voices up into a female sound, I should be able to keep mine from changing too much.

I'm afraid you're being overly optimistic.  :-\ Your voice changing is a physical thing. You can't stop it and you can't predict what kind of voice you'll end up with. Yes, mtf's train their voice. However, as I'm sure the ladies here can tell you, it is very difficult.
And many aren't successful at it.
I wouldn't go into this hoping to reverse or mitigate the voice effects. There's a lot I can't do with my voice I used to be able to do.

Don't mean to discourage you, if T's right for you, it's right for you. But don't want to see anyone go into this with wrong information. The voice change and genital growth are the very first effects of T and begin immediately (as in the first week or two.)

I hope whatever you decide, you end up with the effects you want.  :)
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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