I know I am going through a lot right now, and really I don't have time to even think about transitioning my body – yet it creeps into my thoughts all the time. I do have some problems which I am trying to think though and not being very successful at it. Now that my husband has decided to divorce me, largely, but not solely as a result of my transgender status ( hey, he only wants one pair of balls in the relationship and the fact that my imaginary ones are bigger than his real ones may also have contributed) and assuming my almost adult kids and my licensing board can accept a transition, there is nothing holding me back. But there is – yet I see no way or reason to stay as I am.
Here is my issue. I am attracted to men. If I transition I would be gay. Ok. But as I can not see myself having downstairs surgery (I am functional and get good mileage out of present equipment and there are no guarantees with any surgery – and I couldn't afford it even if I wanted it), no gay male would want me without a penis. So I'm shot with that. I could stay female gendered, but as I know as a FACT – straight men don't want women who behave like guys – they sure as hell don't like women who think like guys! I must say, I have been involved with many professional men who would never consider themselves sexist, who work with powerful, high earning women on a daily basis – but that is not who they want in their bed maybe. So in a nutshell – I think the issue is  straight men won't accept me/ find me attractive and neither will gay men  if I only change my body halfway . That being the case, will I be alone forever? ( thank goodness at least I have dogs who are happy to see me when I get home).
I guess the changes in my life, a divorce, children launching, switching careers has made me very conscious of  my feelings of loneliness and isolation. And I am just wondering,  since I seem to be in a no-man's land, will I be here forever?  I feel I don't want to stay as I am, but will I be just in the same boat if I only transition part way???

I wouldn't let it get you that down. There's the rare gay guy who's perfectly fine with silicone-only. There's the straight guy who likes (and I don't mean this term in any derogatory way, but hopefully you get what I mean) "butch women". Actually I know quite a few guys who are perfectly okay with women who are more male-like than them in mannerisms, thought, in the bedroom, etc. Maybe I just have an odd group of friends? Either way, they're out there. I'm sure there's even dating sites out there for "alternatives" to the norm.

You're definitely not alone.  I have the same issue but at the end of the day I figure that I'm not really getting any as a girl anyway because I act and dress more like a man.

It's all to do with what you need more.  If relationships are that important to you, it's going to make it a far harder process you have to go through mentally.  In my case I've weighed my options and living the way I am right now is getting me down and it's not getting me any relationships anyway.

The way I see it, from presenting as male I find my confidence just shoots up.  As a female I can easily be friends with a guy but I don't have the confidence to go beyond that because they just never seem to have the same interest in the tomboy girl.  I'm a shy and nervous person normally but there's something about presenting as male that gets rid of a lot of that, not entirely, but definitely a marked improvement.  A lot of my insecurities just go away.  So for me, I personally think I will probably have a better chance of hooking up with a guy as a trans male than I ever have as a shy female in boys clothes!  And I know that's maybe not going to end up entirely true but based on experience, I can't really do any worse as a guy than I have done as a girl .

That's just my personal experience, though.  I feel that the potential of not having romantic relationships is a price I'm personally willing to pay to be happier and more confident overall.  And only you can weigh up what means more to you and what you're willing to potentially lose to potentially gain.

You also have to remember that there's plenty of bi men out there.  If they're attracted to men and women, they may well be happy with a half and half. 

theres gayguys who is perfectly fine with transmen, I know some of them in relationship without bottom surgery,

most of the gay/bi men I have come out to havent seam to mind that I dont have bottom surgery.

Hey, the world isn't all black and white. I think we are proof of that!

Remember, a relationship is between two individuals and individuals vary widely. You do not date representations of an entire group- the only way to know if you can find a relationship is to take a chance and see who accepts you as you are.

Good luck! FTMs have found love in the past with straight/gay men, straight/gay women, and anything in between. Reality > labels

Quote from: henrytwob on April 01, 2013, 09:38:26 PM
Here is my issue. I am attracted to men. If I transition I would be gay. Ok. But as I can not see myself having downstairs surgery (I am functional and get good mileage out of present equipment and there are no guarantees with any surgery – and I couldn't afford it even if I wanted it), no gay male would want me without a penis. So I'm shot with that. I could stay female gendered, but as I know as a FACT – straight men don't want women who behave like guys – they sure as hell don't like women who think like guys! I must say, I have been involved with many professional men who would never consider themselves sexist, who work with powerful, high earning women on a daily basis – but that is not who they want in their bed maybe. So in a nutshell – I think the issue is  straight men won't accept me/ find me attractive and neither will gay men  if I only change my body halfway . That being the case, will I be alone forever?

While I haven't had any experience as a transguy with gay men, I know a gay FTM without bottom surgery who's had plenty of sucessful times with gay men. You'll find those who are accepting.

Also, there's also bi guys you could find. 

Quote from: LearnedHand on April 02, 2013, 07:16:52 PM

Also, there's also bi guys you could find. 

^ This.  Generalizing is not your friend.  It only limits your options. 

I just wanted to say that I'm getting bottom surgery in the next couple of months.  It's honestly not as expensive as you seem to think.  Also your insurance might cover it, you never know until you look.  I was shocked to find that mine did. 

There are PLENTY of gay guys out there who just love a man with bio female genitalia.  (that's not how they'll say it but you get my point)  In fact they fetishize it to the point it gets very annoying.  Besides sex is more than just penetration in the missionary position.  In my relationship with a man, I am the top.  It only takes a little bit of creativity. 

Everything will work out the way it's meant to be.  Don't let your fatalistic hypotheticals get in the way of you finding peace with yourself.     

You are not alone in these feelings, I felt this way a great deal and still do on occasion but I don't think what you think is truth is =)

Before transitioning I figured I was gay (I'm probably 80% gay 20% straight, so kind of Bi) but I 'became' bi when I got on T. The hormones change your attractions. I swore up and down to my therapist that I would never find woman attractive. But about 6 months into T I suddenly began seeing woman sexually, something i'd never thought possible. (Before transition I was disgusted by females, had no desire to ever think of them sexually, seeing a straight couple kiss in a movie literally sickened me...)

While you may not experience the change, it certainly is a possibility. I still prefer men but now I can look at a female and not think "Not if we were the last friggin people in the world"  but instead "It could work..." Anyways, the point is, things could change.

Now if things don't change, really don't despair! There's a website/forum online that's actually a collective of men who are in relationships with FTM's (can't remember the name of the site to save my life though, sorry.) My current partner fell in love with me before I came out to him as trans, but during the period in which I was presenting (best I could) as a man. He's not really gay, but we are in a 'gay relationship'. Without going into unnecessary detail, the fact that I'm not 'complete' down there doesn't matter too much.

To say that no gay man will ever want you is a bit of a broad brush to paint with don't you think? Some gay men won't be into you, because all they care about is your body, but do you really want to be with those men? Others will understand and still want to be with you. Some guys just won't want to be with you cause you're not their type. Thats just how it is for everyone, regardless of whether your gay, lesbian, MTF or FTM.

Everyone is different, some men may be VERY interested in having sex with a manly woman. I think you can't just say "No X's likes Y's" if we all still thought like that, there wouldn't even BE "powerful, high earning women".

I personally will probably never have downstairs surgery. I'm comfortable right now with the use of prosthesis to accomplish my 'goals'. I also think you should maybe separate love from sex.

Will you be alone forever because you transition? Of course not. There's so many of our species in the world it's impossible to think that you won't find SOMEONE if you look for them. Will you be able to have casual sex with others if you transition? Well yeah, the base desire of our species is "fight vs flight" and "reproduce". Of course reproduction gets muddled since we have such a wide sexual scope in our species, but sex is a driving force. There are millions others of your species all around you, who almost all (with the exception of some) have a base desire to copulate.

Also with our current world, everyone is becoming so much more open to the LGBT community. I could probably go walk into a walmart right now, take a survey, and at least 50% of the people in there would not give two wags if I told them "I'm gay, what do you think of that?".

So in a nut shell, if you want to transition, and think it's going to make you happy, do it! Why not? You're not going to be alone unless you isolate yourself. You'll find people who want to have sex with you and if you look hard enough you may even find that special someone who wants to be with you for the rest of their lives. Human's are a species that seeks out the pack, you'll find someone. Just because your 'different' than a regular cis-gay guy doesn't mean no gay guy is going to want you. And if you end up becoming Bi thanks to the hormones, well I don't know a lot of females that would hate the idea that you can't get them pregnant.

You're not alone, i'm sure many others have felt this way too, I know I sure did.
Best way to get out of the no mans land you feel your in is to go out and make some new friends! At the start of my transition I joined a local club that shared an interest of mine. I've made many friends (no one in the club really knows i'm trans though) so recently I found a new love for Archery. I intend to buy myself a bow on my birthday (one month) and join a local range where no one knew me before my transition. I expect everyone will treat me like the new me and I will have many friends who like me for me, and not for 'the old me'. See what i'm saying? Find an interest of yours, set aside some spare time, go onto a website like meetup and join a local club and go out and have fun!

I was talking to a good family friend a couple days ago. He said I should bring my partner to our next get together (my family and our close friends. The big family on un-releated blood ) I told him "Well he's very social awkward" I'll never forget what he said to me for the rest of my life. He said "We all are in the end aren't we? Just a bunch of socialy awkward people. But that's why it works. We're all just human."

So go out there, transition if it's what you feel is right and make some friends! The point of it all, of everything is the little stuff, worrying about 'will they like me?', hating the weather, petting your dogs, running through the rain, driving to work. It's life, and it's worth living for and being a part of. So be yourself, the real male you and join the millions of us other socially awkward people.

Hope that helps some.

Cheers

Hi Henry,

I do agree with previous posters that you're painting both straight and gay men with a broad brush. Like Outside mentioned, I never had a problem with guys wanting me even as they joked about how 'manly' I was or even that I was making them feel like a woman!
Actually, I think a lot of guys wish women were more like men.
I think either you're not meeting the right guys or it's possible the kind of guys you're attracted to do want feminine girls. Or it could just be the guys in your circle. There are plenty of men out there who actually prefer 'tomboy' like girls - in looks, personality, or both.

Now, ordinarily I wouldn't talk about this. It's not the most popular point of view.
But since you asked...

QuoteAnd I am just wondering,  since I seem to be in a no-man's land, will I be here forever?  I feel I don't want to stay as I am, but will I be just in the same boat if I only transition part way???

When you transition, you're complicating your sexual life with two strikes: male and trans. Women get laid far easier and more often (yes even if they're ugly or masculine). If you think it's hard now...

Studies show that about 14% of grown men have never even been laid. The figure's only 6% for women.
It's a total myth that men have more sex. But certainly a myth we like to perpetuate.
Granted, gay men have it easier than straight men generally, but you probably don't get the gay benefit being trans on top of it. Of course, this could be different if you've have bottom surgery or are stealth. I don't know, don't mean to discount the experiences of any gay, trans sex gods out there.

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible to find someone. You most certainly can. But I don't think anyone will argue that you are indeed limiting your dating pool. There may be plenty of gay guys out there who like trans guys. I have heard however, that age is a factor in this. I don't know how old you are, but you mention adult children. I've heard it's more difficult for older guys to find partners their age than for the younger crowd. I don't know this first hand, but it's probably true that older gay guys (like the older population in general) are less open. Of course that doesn't mean you can't find one. Or maybe you'd be happy with a younger guy. Anyway, it's something to consider.

I think you're overestimating the difficulty in finding someone as a masculine woman. Masculine women have a much larger dating pool of men to choose from than you will as a trans guy. The dating pool of men goes down just by being a gay man, as there are fewer gay men in the world than straight men. Then, it gets even lower when you factor in being trans. And may dwindle down even further when age is factored in. Anyway, these are just loose 'stats' and may not apply once you get down to individuals. Yes, you can find someone. You won't be alone forever unless you want to be. But you may have to do a lot more wading in the pool than most.

When we're going through all this, transition and identity and all that are all consuming and seem like the only things that will ever matter. But we don't live in a vacuum. How important are relationships and easy sex to you? In short, you're making it harder on yourself to get laid and limiting the pool of potential relationship partners. No reason to sugar coat it. Now, confidence counts for a lot. It can overcome a lot. But you don't seem to have a ton of it now as far as dating is concerned thinking no straight men want you as is.

Once the dysphoria's gone and you're fully transitioned, you may feel differently about things than you do now. I don't regret transition, but I do miss being able to get anyone I wanted. Now I have to wonder whether the person will date a trans man and whether or when to come out and all that. And being stealth as well, I can't just act on any attraction I have. I miss that. A lot.
Maybe it's different for guys who've had bottom surgery and 'pass muster' down there. I don't know. But even then, there are limits just being a gay man. That hot guy you just saw on the street is probably straight.

I know popular wisdom is to think only of being true to yourself and transitioning and all. But I think it's important to factor other things in. If you were going to be alone for the rest of your life, would you still want to transition? And no, I'm not saying this is going to happen. But if you had the choice between finding a great relationship as a masculine woman or transitioning and being alone forever, which would you choose?

Anyway, I hope I don't come off too pessimistic with this. 
But my therapist asked me this same thing before transition, and I'm glad he did. And being fully transitioned, I can now see it differently than I did before.

I think my last relationship (which lasted nearly twenty years) was a success largely BECAUSE I was a guy. He had the best of all possible worlds, for a straight guy.

ETA: In my opinion, my ex's only real flaw was that he WAS straight.

Squirrel698, good to hear you are getting bottom surgery.  What are you getting? How long you been on T?  I am looking at the different bottom surgery possibilties and the pros and cons of each for me.  I would love to be able to stand to pee.  Girls seem to look better to me all the time.

Quote from: mm on April 04, 2013, 11:31:15 AM
Squirrel698, good to hear you are getting bottom surgery.  What are you getting? How long you been on T?  I am looking at the different bottom surgery possibilties and the pros and cons of each for me.  I would love to be able to stand to pee.  Girls seem to look better to me all the time.

Come next month I'll be on T for three years.  I'm getting the memetoidioplasty with testicular implants and a complete hysterectomy most likely in June.  Sadly I won't be able to stand up to pee after the surgery.  Which is disappointing but the way it is now the failure rate is about 30% according to my surgeon.  That's a bit high for me plus I would like to keep all the tissue I can around there and drilling a hole takes some away. 

Girls are looking great to me.  For me it's because when I'm with them I really feel very masculine.   Being with my guy friends is nice and I also feel masculine  there.  Just with girls I just feel very strong and protective.  It's a great feeling.   

I do often feel the same. Admittedly all but one gay man I have ever met only want other cis men, and the one gay guy I know who is fine with trans men is almost asexual, they really only have interest in one body part and it's not a sexual body part. I won't date straight men because they want females and I don't identify as female.

There are bi guys who will be fine with trans men and pansexual men are an option too. Being trans male and non/pre bottom op will limit the dating pool, but you do what you have to do to be happy with yourself. If you aren't female, you aren't female, and one can't help that.

If someone as miserably screwed up as me can end up with a guy, I think you'll be just fine.
He's 'technically' straight, and its never been an issue.

henrytwob, you are definitely not alone in this! I have EXACTLY the same thoughts running through my mind every day! I am a FTM and i am gay. I am not on T (yet).

The fact that i am gay (i have never been attracted to a woman, never in my life), is one of the main reasons why i am not on T yet. All the time i find myself thinking that as soon as i go on T i will start getting attention from girls and maybe some gay guys.. But gay guys will definitely lose their interest in me as soon as they find out i don't have a penis. And i am not interested in girls! And well, most of straight girls will lose their interest in me anyway for obvious reasons. So who will stay? Lesbians? I am not attracted to them. I don't  like girls at all and i definitely don't like so called "butch" lesbians.

I have never been popular and i have never got any attention from guys, except for some rare cases. This is because i dress like a guy most of the time AND i act like a guy 100% of the time. Men HATE this! They really hate it! You can dress like a girl but if you act like a guy they can sense there is something wrong with you and you won't get much attention. This has always been the case with me. I tried experimenting and sometimes i would dress like a girl, put some make-up on and go to clubs. Remember, it was just an experiment! I wanted to see if i could get some attention from guys. Well, i got some of it but not much. I think they can really feel something is wrong with you...

Anyway, i can't imagine myself being in a relationship with a guy in this body. I hate my body and there is no way i am going to play a female's role in a relationship because i am SOOOOO dusgusted with the thought of it, everything seems absolutely wrong! I can't be a woman in a relationship, that's the end of the story.

So i think i will have to stay alone for the rest of my life. I don't think i am gonna have a long life but anyway... Staying alone and lonely is so hard.  It's really heartbreaking to know that i will never get married, i will never have kids, i will never have a "normal" relationship. It's hard emotionally, mentally and physically.

But there is nothing i can do about it. I know i am a man, just without the bits and i feel so disgusted with my female body and the role which a female has to play in the society that i will never be able to have a male/female relationship (as long as i am a female, that's it).

If you feel like talking you can message me.

Gay trans people are not condemned to loneliness for the rest of their lives.  This is a common thing for people to be saying at the moment, and saying it as if it's true, and it really isn't.  I'm not gay myself, but there are plenty of gay trans men on these boards who are in loving relationships, and it's not fair on other trans people who might be questioning and looking on here to hear this sort of thing when it is not true.

Yes it might be harder for you, but it's not impossible.  Relationships are hard for everyone, this is just a slightly different problem.

And not all gay men are so interested in penis that they will find it impossible to look past.  That's a bit of a bigotted and generalised view of a huge number of people.  Just like everyone assuming that all people who are interested in women like performing cunnilingus, erm, no thanks.

AlexanderC, well i was expressing my personal point of view and it's based on what i have seen and experienced in my life. Probably it depends on the country you live in. Some countries are very tolerate and it's easier there. But other countries have very little tolerance and some have no tolerance at all.

I live in Eastern Europe and trust me, people here know very little about transsexual people. Usually, it's like that - a gay man is looking for a gay MAN. And a straight girl wants nothing more than a straight man. It's a very limited choice. People like me don't have too many people to choose from. And you can't be in a relationship with someone you don't like. It's really hard.

Quote from: dean1229 on April 16, 2013, 03:31:23 PM
AlexanderC, well i was expressing my personal point of view and it's based on what i have seen and experienced in my life. Probably it depends on the country you live in. Some countries are very tolerate and it's easier there. But other countries have very little tolerance and some have no tolerance at all.

I live in Eastern Europe and trust me, people here know very little about transsexual people. Usually, it's like that - a gay man is looking for a gay MAN. And a straight girl wants nothing more than a straight man. It's a very limited choice. People like me don't have too many people to choose from. And you can't be in a relationship with someone you don't like. It's really hard.

I'm not trying to have a dig at you, I know that things aren't easy, I'm just getting a little frustrated at posts which are saying that gay trans men will never find anyone else, and that includes other people's posts as well.  There's evidence that there are people out there who don't care about your genitals, and it's not helpful for anyone else to hear that no one will want to date you because of them.  And not everyone in your country will have the same beliefs, so I'm sure that one day you will find someone who wants to be with and you want to be with as well.  Getting down about it isn't helpful for anyone, think positive and things might just fall into place with a man.

"Usually, it's like that - a gay man is looking for a gay MAN."
I know this is just your wording, but I find this sentence sort of insulting.  I'm just as much of a man as anyone else, despite not having a cis male penis.  I know what you mean, and I don't know whether there is a language barrier involved or something, but it's pretty hurtful to hear someone saying we're not men.

Again, I'm not trying to get into an argument, I just don't think that saying that people will never have a partner who can see past their genitals is helpful for anyone, trans or gay.

Quote from: AlexanderC on April 16, 2013, 03:57:51 PM
I'm not trying to have a dig at you, I know that things aren't easy, I'm just getting a little frustrated at posts which are saying that gay trans men will never find anyone else, and that includes other people's posts as well.  There's evidence that there are people out there who don't care about your genitals, and it's not helpful for anyone else to hear that no one will want to date you because of them.

I get what you're saying, Alex. However, I think it's okay to acknowledge that it is going to be harder to find someone as a trans man than it was as a female. Everyone feels differently about things and has different priorities. I think people for whom relationships and/or casual sex are very important should consider this. Sure, there are gay and straight trans men in loving relationships. Pretty much everyone can find someone. That's a different thing from sex and relationships being as easy as they were pre-transition. Just because you *can* find someone does not mean transition doesn't make things difficult in the sex/relationship arena. 

Unfortunately, Henrytwob, I know how you feel.
Though are situations are a little different. I'm younger than you, I'm not married and therefore am not about to get a divorce, and I don't have children. However, I can certainly relate to feeling like no one will end up wanting me because of the transgender thing. Though, I do plan on getting top surgery and some form of bottom surgery at some point or another. But the sad truth is, that even with bottom surgery, there are some gay men out there who still don't want anything to do with transmen because they see them transmen and not just guys who were given the wrong equipment at the starting line. I've had plenty of times where I've considered just stopping my transition and 'going back' from the sheer fear of being alone forever (I don't have a very long romantic history, and the one guy that I actually cared about stopped caring when he learned about my transition) however, I know that if I do that, I have no chance of being happy in any aspect of my life. If I do transition though, I can at least be happy in my own body, even if I have to be happy alone.

I do have a question though, Have you ever consider dating bi-men?

I've personally encountered more bi-men who are transfriendly then straight or gay men. Perhaps that could be an option for you?

Or, you could also consider trying to date other gay or bi transmen? Could be worth a shot?