Nutcases!  It's summer and the nutballs are out and about.

Yesterday, I had a guy drive next to me on a major arterial roadway in Portland, screaming first religious dogma, and then cursing when I began laughing at his stupidity. It was silly as hell, and he held up traffic for about five miles just so he could keep pace with my poor old dykemobile. I laughed the whole time, because it was so ridiculous. I thought that was the end of it.

Today, the regular truck driver backed into the bay door, got out and saw the bumperstickers on my car. He glared at me, and then screamed "that sucks." I replied, "that's nice, " and ignored him. This always happens the week before Pride Weekend for me. We hold it on Father's Day, and the burb dwellers always resent it.

Sure beats the old days though, "whew!" This stuff is mildly amusing. The old stuff was life-threatening. Life sure is entertaining.

To them, they are not nutcases, it's you who are the nutcase.

I'm not trying to support them.  But if you see the frames through which they view the world, you can Aikido their thought patterns and maybe actually plant the seeds in them which will lead them to changing their attitudes by themselves.

QuoteAikido emphasizes joining with an attack and redirecting the attacker's energy, as opposed to meeting force with force...

The hard part is seeing the world through their eyes, but it's necessary in order to be able to impose your vision in a way that they can see and will respond to.

Karen

Interesting idea, Karen. What would you say to someone to aikido their thought patterns?

It depends on the situation.  I can offer one longish story which may illustrate the point.

I had left some uniform items in the armory 100 miles from the one where I worked (we had to go there to make clothing and equipment exchanges with the truck that came up from the depot each month.)

Being the good, honest, morally courageous soldier, I told my boss that it had happened...

"You WHAT!?!" (You're a failure (and I'm not))

I said that I had it handled, I'd called the armory and if they found the clothing, they'd save it for me.

"That's not the point!" (You're a failure (and I'm not))

Well, if it was missing, as an adult who accepts responsibility, I'd pay for it.

"That's not the point!" (You're a failure (and I'm not))

There were several other points I made that basically added up to I'd deal with the situation in a mature, responsible manner, each of which he'd counter, leaving me only the option to 'accept' being a complete and utter failure.

Then the above was repeated three more times, point-to-point-to-point.  I suddenly realized what the phrase, "They went 'round and 'round" meant.

That's the set-up.

I think I Aikido'd him when I suddenly said, "Mark, are you doing this for my benefit, or for yours?"

I don't know where the words came from, they just popped out, but they were exactly right.

He stopped like I'd just clubbed him in the face with an ice cream cone or other incongruous object.

"Let's get out of here and come back after dinner", he said, and we went each to our homes for dinner.  He apologised for his tirade after we returned.

If you want to Aikido the conservatives' attack, you have to be able to see and understand their world-view.  Not accept, just see and understand.

Conservatives are 'pro-life'.  Yet they're against government-provided pre- and post-natal care, toddler care, WIC food support, foodstamps, headstart -- in fact, any sort of unearned government giveaway.  Hence, the U S and A has a higher infant mortality rate than some less-developed countries.  So where's the LIFE in 'Pro Life"?

The underlying rationale for the Pro-Life stance is not sanctity of human life, though that is a factor.  But it's a factor that's subordinated to support an even more fundamental conservative value -- not getting something you didn't earn and thus don't deserve, and suffering the consequences for violating the bounds of the absolute, God-given moral rules.

So, a woman who finds herself pregnant out of a sanctified conservative marriage must suffer the consequences of her wanton ways, and go it alone to raise the child as best she can manage with no outside support, as this would only condone and encourage such behaviour in her and other girls who can't keep their legs together until they get married to a husband who will provide the support her child will need.

Seeing that world-view will help you aikido the pro-lifers.  The fulcrum points that you will use are not in the 'sanctity of life' part, as that's only in support and defense of 'suffer the consequences' and 'everyone pays their own way'.  You trip them up by collapsing those -- finding the things that fit in their deep frames.

I'd try something like, "I too believe in the sanctity of life.  And we really have to do something to reduce the unconscionable infant mortality rate here in America.  How is it we're way down at number 42 in the world in infant survival rates, while counties like Slovenia and the Czech Republic place very near the top?"

Granted, it's only a seed, and it may never sprout.  But if you plant enough of them, and in the right way, you can effect enough of a change.  You also have to understand the other conservative world views, and their hierarchies.

Never fall into the trap that if you just explain it to them rationally, they will get it.  Al Gore fell into it with the book "The Assault on Reason"  Reasoning doesn't work.  You have to appeal to their emotions.  For that, WE use reason to understand those emotions, then design and implement Aikido that trips them up.

There are books that will help you understand some of the mindsets and worldviews you need to know.

Sorry for going on at length.  It was a subject that required a lengthy, messy explanation.  I hope that it lays the foundation for quicker, more elegant explanations in the future.

Karen

Don't apologize, that was a great anecdote, and good thinking.

I use the angle of patriotism, which is also at the top of the right wing hit parade. The Dear Leader says "They hate us for our freedoms." OK, great. I love America for its freedoms -- like being free to live as a woman...

USA! USA!

Quote from: Hypatia on June 17, 2007, 07:59:51 PM
Don't apologize, that was a great anecdote, and good thinking.

I use the angle of patriotism, which is also at the top of the right wing hit parade. The Dear Leader says "They hate us for our freedoms." OK, great. I love America for its freedoms -- like being free to live as a woman...

USA! USA!

And when I'm feeling really snarky, and someone tells me they're [more] patriotic [than me], I say back, "I'm sorry to hear that.  How long have you had this patri-osis??"  >

Karen

Quote from: Karen on June 17, 2007, 11:55:18 AM
It depends on the situation.  I can offer one longish story which may illustrate the point.

I had left some uniform items in the armory 100 miles from the one where I worked (we had to go there to make clothing and equipment exchanges with the truck that came up from the depot each month.)

Being the good, honest, morally courageous soldier, I told my boss that it had happened...

"You WHAT!?!" (You're a failure (and I'm not))

I said that I had it handled, I'd called the armory and if they found the clothing, they'd save it for me.

"That's not the point!" (You're a failure (and I'm not))

Well, if it was missing, as an adult who accepts responsibility, I'd pay for it.

"That's not the point!" (You're a failure (and I'm not))

There were several other points I made that basically added up to I'd deal with the situation in a mature, responsible manner, each of which he'd counter, leaving me only the option to 'accept' being a complete and utter failure.

Then the above was repeated three more times, point-to-point-to-point.  I suddenly realized what the phrase, "They went 'round and 'round" meant.

That's the set-up.

I think I Aikido'd him when I suddenly said, "Mark, are you doing this for my benefit, or for yours?"

I don't know where the words came from, they just popped out, but they were exactly right.

He stopped like I'd just clubbed him in the face with an ice cream cone or other incongruous object.

"Let's get out of here and come back after dinner", he said, and we went each to our homes for dinner.  He apologised for his tirade after we returned.

If you want to Aikido the conservatives' attack, you have to be able to see and understand their world-view.  Not accept, just see and understand.

Conservatives are 'pro-life'.  Yet they're against government-provided pre- and post-natal care, toddler care, WIC food support, foodstamps, headstart -- in fact, any sort of unearned government giveaway.  Hence, the U S and A has a higher infant mortality rate than some less-developed countries.  So where's the LIFE in 'Pro Life"?

The underlying rationale for the Pro-Life stance is not sanctity of human life, though that is a factor.  But it's a factor that's subordinated to support an even more fundamental conservative value -- not getting something you didn't earn and thus don't deserve, and suffering the consequences for violating the bounds of the absolute, God-given moral rules.

So, a woman who finds herself pregnant out of a sanctified conservative marriage must suffer the consequences of her wanton ways, and go it alone to raise the child as best she can manage with no outside support, as this would only condone and encourage such behaviour in her and other girls who can't keep their legs together until they get married to a husband who will provide the support her child will need.

Seeing that world-view will help you aikido the pro-lifers.  The fulcrum points that you will use are not in the 'sanctity of life' part, as that's only in support and defense of 'suffer the consequences' and 'everyone pays their own way'.  You trip them up by collapsing those -- finding the things that fit in their deep frames.

I'd try something like, "I too believe in the sanctity of life.  And we really have to do something to reduce the unconscionable infant mortality rate here in America.  How is it we're way down at number 42 in the world in infant survival rates, while counties like Slovenia and the Czech Republic place very near the top?"

Granted, it's only a seed, and it may never sprout.  But if you plant enough of them, and in the right way, you can effect enough of a change.  You also have to understand the other conservative world views, and their hierarchies.

Never fall into the trap that if you just explain it to them rationally, they will get it.  Al Gore fell into it with the book "The Assault on Reason"  Reasoning doesn't work.  You have to appeal to their emotions.  For that, WE use reason to understand those emotions, then design and implement Aikido that trips them up.

There are books that will help you understand some of the mindsets and worldviews you need to know.

Sorry for going on at length.  It was a subject that required a lengthy, messy explanation.  I hope that it lays the foundation for quicker, more elegant explanations in the future.

Karen

Apologize for nothing, Karen.

Consider yours archived. It's an honor to know you.

QuoteIf you want to Aikido the conservatives' attack, you have to be able to see and understand their world-view.  Not accept, just see and understand.

I read this book, Don't Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate by George Lakoff. He offers interesting insight into how conservative right wing people think and their world view.

Zythyra

I'll try to pinpoint common ground right off the bat.  I don't move to my more familiar territory of logic until we can agree on something.  It usually works.  They hate it when they suddenly find themselves in "enemy territory" and agreeing with me.

Cindi

I don't take your Bible humping types seriously. I have a hard time understanding how anyone can take them seriously. Most of them aren't very bright and easy to take advantage of, and in my opinion they'll eventually end up fighting each other over some BS dogma. Personally, I could care less.

As a former rightwinger, I can really appreciate the need to redirect all of that negative energy in a discussion. Unfortunately, one of the most powerful aspects of a person's life is their *beliefs.* It's such a major factor that it is the filter through which we will see everything.

We *believe* that right wing conservative religion is damning in and of itself, but in their eyes, they believe they are the only ones NOT damned. Where we see stifling, they see freedom in consecration. Where we see bondage, they see salvation. It's a tragic viewpoint which has reduced the infinite, uncreated, and unimaginable glory of the Creator of the universe into a single book which is only defined by the highlights and footnotes in its very finite and often whithered pages.

Here's the point: Looking outside of the confines of the box is frightening beyond imagination. Worse yet, they might have their view of the "world" colored by their own tragic experiences (drug use, prostitution, or other destructive lifestyles), or by what they are shown by those who wish to demonize those outside their circles. To them, it's a dark, evil, and vile world that must be shown the light.

The only way for such people to realize that they've been blinded by their own illusion of "light," is for the mirage to fade away. For such people, I have great compassion, yet intense frustration. I don't know if I can *fight* such people since I was one not too long ago... but I can sure find a way to show grace, and (hopefully) let them see the true light of Christ through my actions and words.

If we look for a fight, we'll find it. If we look for redemption... well... we might find that too.

I am not sure I can see the world that crazy Karen 

Quote from: Karen on June 13, 2007, 11:20:47 PM

The hard part is seeing the world through their eyes, but it's necessary in order to be able to impose your vision in a way that they can see and will respond to.