I hope people dont find it offensive.

theres a couple of programs I seen where people try to live as the opposite sex for a day,
they do all they can with make up clothing wigs and so to make them look like a guy/girl. yet I really cant stop thinking how badly they pass even when they with looks have done everything to make them look like guy or a girl, also one of my friends where dressing up for a guy and I kept thinking like.. "nono.. that dosent matter, its not about your size in your pants you should try focus on your voice insteed" and all those things.
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it just keep me thinking abit, maybe passing is something we learn? maybe the thing that they really dont feel like a guy/girl make them seam less passable, or maybe im just more critical of cisgenders than transgender people?

what do you think?

Before I even thought of presenting female, I did a lot of thinking and observing. I tried to be aware of what did I look at to decide whether someone's male or female. Where did I look first? If that was ambiguous, where did I look next?

Those inquiries informed me in a major way about what I needed to do. I would've quickly been read by everyone if I hadn't done that thinking ahead of time.

I hate those types of programs and features as well.

I recall, a number of years ago, some fashion designer tried to design a skirt for men. Frankly, he should have found a rather better model, because the guy he chose was trying to look very uncomfortable.

If the objective is for men and women to sample each other's lives, then they can do that without the cross dressing.

If the objective is to make a bunch of overweight, hairy guys, make fools of themsleves in dresses, while a bunch of over sexualised women, wearing men's clothes, have some fun, then is just stupid.

i don't really think you're overthinking it. learning the mannerisms of the opposite sex is really hard,  for twenty years i tried to be a girl, and my walk is still not convincing except for when i'm wearing heels. and some transsexuals end up overcompensating when trying to act their assigned gender...

once in a drama class in high school one of the boys tried to teach another one how to make a "gay" pose. turned out to be impossible no matter how hard he tried, because he's naturally hyper masculine in his mannerisms. even if he made the pose perfectly, something about it just seemed totally off and made the whole thing seem rather ridiculous.

i really think passing is something that comes from inside, it's more about being than dressing as. even actors who've studied well and learned how to act in a female role will usually not be taken for a woman even if he plays the role convincingly. the ability to come off as a woman rather than someone who plays a female role seems to be quite rare even in traditional japanese theater troupes where all the actors are men, from what i've seen on youtube.

I have a habit of falling back on trying to put this sort of thing into context.  Basically, what's the motivation and purpose?

With "passing" or even being "cohesive," if wearing sex/gender-transcending clothes comes "naturally" to the person doing it, I think they are more likely to act/present/feel "normal" while doing so, and that aura of normalcy can be read by others.  Also, I think we (at least in this particular community) are more sympathetic to this cohort of people, as we understand it is important to them.

"Dressing as the opposite sex" for a program or some purpose external to a person's identity entails an artificiality that we can find disagreeable.  The actors involved are inclined to think of themselves as fulfilling a role, a role that they cannot realistically expect to understand.  It can be thought of as play or as work, but it entails someone making assumptions about how others think rather than feeling who they are.  Granted, we're not going to look at all such "cis" people in the same way.  If someone is genuinely seeking to wrap their head around an identity, I would want to recognize that the person seeks understanding.  If someone is going to play out a caricature/stereotype for laughs, then I'm going to have a problem.  I may not be as unforgiving as US society has generally become towards "black face," but the gender equivalent is no more morally acceptable.

Quote from: Kaelin on April 13, 2013, 01:27:52 AM
I may not be as unforgiving as US society has generally become towards "black face," but the gender equivalent is no more morally acceptable.

I'm not sure cis crossdressing would be the moral equivalent of black face. That would be if cis folks started acting like MtFs and FtMs to caricature and ridicule us.

the actors i wrote about don't play any roles in order to ridicule, or if they do, it has nothing to do with a character's gender. i don't think anyone in my high school class would ever want to ridicule trans people, but the boys would still try on that gaudy flower dress which was at one time in the classroom. in dancing classes many of the girls ended up learning both the man's and woman's steps because there weren't enough boys. curiosity, necessity, experimentation and creativity are reasons i find valid enough for anyone to try on the opposite gender role even if they identify with their assigned gender. i don't know what the purpose is of every program where people try the role of the opposite gender for a limited amount of time, but i doubt many of them are made to ridicule trans people or crossdressers.

i don't mind if a guy wants to try wearing a dress, corset, and heals for a day just to see what it's like. there is a chance he might learn something about himself or others from it. that story about the model who looked seriously uncomfortable in a men's skirt is a bit weird, i don't understand why they'd use someone who's uncomfortable being associated with the opposite sex. but i've seen guys whom i believe t be cis wearing skirts with quite some confidence, no ridicule, and looking good in them.

it would probably be better for society if we had perfect freedom when it comes to clothing. anyone should be able to wear a dress if they want to, no matter what gender identity they have. clothes are only things you wear to keep warm or hide your more private body parts, they don't really belong to any specific gender other than through the norms of a given society.

Quote from: Kaelin on April 13, 2013, 01:27:52 AM

With "passing" or even being "cohesive," if wearing sex/gender-transcending clothes comes "naturally" to the person doing it, I think they are more likely to act/present/feel "normal" while doing so, and that aura of normalcy can be read by others.  Also, I think we (at least in this particular community) are more sympathetic to this cohort of people, as we understand it is important to them.

Yes, absolutely! 

QuoteI'm not sure cis crossdressing would be the moral equivalent of black face. That would be if cis folks started acting like MtFs and FtMs to caricature and ridicule us.

I didn't intend to equate cis-crossdressing in general with it, but stereotype/caricature-driven (cross)dressing.  But I would expand the scope to include not just MtFs and FtMs.  For example, women in general are sometimes the butt of the jokes, and while women in general have not had it as tough as MtFs and FtMs, I still find it to be a problem.

I think Taka may strike a better tone, though, focusing on how it can be a positive.  If someone seems to fall outside of that, it's probably better to help the person find a more constructive and authentic end.