Quote from: AlexanderC on April 02, 2013, 08:20:55 PM
I can't understand how they can get away with saying that when they're supposed to be the people helping us.  We're supposed to go along and trust part of their team with what can be for some the most difficult and darkest secret we've been holding needing their help, and they're saying things like this.  It doesn't help that people go looking to the NHS for advice and expecting it to be a trustworthy resource -- what does all our tax go to anyway? -- and they're telling our families that might go looking to understand better that we won't ever be normal.

It's a little thing but it bleeding well annoys me.

If this is the only negative aspect of the NHS that you discover during your transition, you will have had the smoothest, trouble-free transition on the NHS of anyone I have ever known.

Can FTM get adam's apples ?? or are cis-men just born with something im not and it grows into one ?

Quote from: Tay on April 03, 2013, 02:26:15 PM
If this is the only negative aspect of the NHS that you discover during your transition, you will have had the smoothest, trouble-free transition on the NHS of anyone I have ever known.

I actually have existing problems with the NHS that stop me even trying to transition with them before I'm 18 and out of the care of CAMHS.  But even that, and the waiting times I can understand, there is only a finite amount of resources and we're not one of their priorities.  Having the nerve to say outright that we will never be on the same par as cis men isn't due to money or any other reason apart from ignorance and just slacking.  Maybe even some minute transphobia thrown in the mix as well.

It's often the little things which matter, have you ever heard people saying you can tell the state of an establishment by it's toilets, or the professionalism of a man by his shoes?  I believe it's sort of the same thing with companies and their websites.

Quote from: Landen Scott on April 03, 2013, 02:38:58 PM
Can FTM get adam's apples ?? or are cis-men just born with something im not and it grows into one ?

Yes, we do get them. It is just the larynx and everybody has a larynx

Yeah, that is an outright lie.

The only exception being for those who start T rather late in life, where their larynx has already ossified or is in the process of becoming bone. In that instance the cartilage, not being cartilage anymore, won't grow and the voice wouldn't be able to change all that much as a result (the vocal chords will still stretch but would be trapped in a too-small larynx structure). In that instance, and only that instance, would that claim be mostly true. Otherwise, if it is still cartilage and not bone, it'll grow and it'll change a whole lot.

I know mine has gotten about three times its size already. I actually felt structures being pushed aside to accommodate it (especially in the first three months). If I moved my head and jaw a certain way they'd lock up and stress the ligaments in there, feeling too short and pulling. Still happening too. And it feels a bit uncomfortable squarely in that area in the second week after my dose (where I notice my voice consistently changing now, like clockwork).

Actually, NONE of my Oxford's fit me in my neck anymore because of this alone. They ALL choke me because they push back on it too much. They were all between 1/2-1" between my neck and collar before and now there's no room. I was a 17" neck before too. Its going to be really hard to find a 20" neck but in a medium or large trunk... seriously. Certainly not going to be a department-store find.

I still can't use my voice without it breaking. I mean like, it'll just stop making noises altogether at even medium ranges so it's still growing and changing and probably won't stop for a few years yet.

Anyway, bonafide BS from the NHS (so long as you're not or aren't totally ossified in your larynx cartilage).

Quote from: Magnus on April 03, 2013, 05:12:35 PM
Yeah, that is an outright lie.

The only exception being for those who start T rather late in life, where their larynx has already ossified or is in the process of becoming bone. In that instance the cartilage, not being cartilage anymore, won't grow and the voice wouldn't be able to change all that much as a result (the vocal chords will still stretch but would be trapped in a too-small larynx structure). In that instance, and only that instance, would that claim be mostly true. Otherwise, if it is still cartilage and not bone, it'll grow and it'll change a whole lot.

I

Anyway, bonafide BS from the NHS (so long as you're not or aren't totally ossified in your larynx cartilage).

I don't know about this even. I am definitely "older". My voice is deepening nicely. I know quite a few guys over 40 (and even 50) and all their voices deepened too.

I think the larynx is soft tissue in any case.

I think the info in the NHS is just plain BS regardless of transition age. I haven't heard ANYBODY at all who has been on T a reasonable length of time who's voice didn't deepen and be "not as low as a cisguy". I doubt the "Center for Excellence" would spout such garbage.

--Jay

Didn't say it wouldn't deepen (vocal chords lengthening is the deepening factor and happens whether or not the surrounding laryngeal cartilage is ossified because the cords aren't cartilage and therefore cannot ossify and can continue to lengthen/thicken), but it is still a fact that when the laryngeal cartilage ossifies, that's it in terms of it growing/stretching/thickening anymore. It can't if it's already progressed beyond a certain amount of partial or complete ossification/calcification.

So then the statement of it not getting as deep as it otherwise would (which I'm sure is what they were trying to state rather than what they ended up stating instead - the person who put it up there probably is a second-language English speaker), is true. Not that it won't deepen at all, but that it won't become as deep as it could if ossification wasn't present prior to TRT (and because deepness is a two-fold factor of both vocal chord length and thickness, as well as the adam's apple size and weight).

But anyway, yes the larynx is soft tissue... up to a certain point where it begins to calcify, and that certain point like so very many other things, is highly individual. Ossification begins and ends at very many different ages and stages in life. But it does happen, to everyone. If it didn't, we would all still have mushy skulls like infants and we also would never stop growing on account of the cartilage (growth plates) never ossifying to close them and stop growth (as just a couple of many examples).


For reference, if anyone is interested... http://www.ajnr.org/content/26/6/1339.full

Discussion; paragraph 4.

"The laryngeal cartilages are hyaline cartilage, except for the fibroelastic cartilage of the epiglottis. Hyaline cartilages undergo change over time, with progressive enchondral ossification (5, 6). There is wide variation between the age of an individual and the stages of calcification of the laryngeal cartilage. Nevertheless, calcifications progressively progress with age. Moreover, the order of ossification of laryngeal cartilages correlates with the distribution of the mechanical forces applied to the larynx cartilages (6)."

Quote from: Magnus on April 04, 2013, 04:04:18 PM
So then the statement of it not getting as deep as it otherwise would (which I'm sure is what they were trying to state rather than what they ended up stating instead - the person who put it up there probably is a second-language English speaker), is true. Not that it won't deepen at all, but that it won't become as deep as it could if ossification wasn't present prior to TRT (and because deepness is a two-fold factor of both vocal chord length and thickness, as well as the Adam's apple size and weight).

I'm not sure we should be assuming that it was written by someone who's native language isn't English seeing as it was published on the NHS website, which is the British health system, and well, we did invent English... (yes, I know we nicked most of our words from other countries and language is a constantly evolving thing etc but that's beside the point).  The fact is that that statement is actually pretty harmful, and shouldn't be on such a website.  If I had an email address for them, and thought it would make the slightest bit of difference I would be complaining pronto.

I can assure you though that regardless of age, every trans guy I know (who has been on T for over a few months) has a sufficiently male voice. Don't know if they are as low as they might have been, I think it's a bit hard to say. I don't have much doubt, based on what I hear right now that my voice will get in the male range  both deeper and more resonant. Actually already is at least some of the time when it isn't see-sawing.

--Jay

Yeah that sentence always bothered me too...it's like...based on what evidence?

I personally have had a massive voice drop. I went from being able to sing like Amy Lee (evanescence) to singing like Alex Band (The Calling)

I am not on T but sometimes i try to lower my voice and i can kind of pass. I can pass easily when i have a cold, lol. My voice is not high at all but it's not really low. It's lower than a regular female voice but there are girls with lower voices. Which makes me sad.

my voice is as deep as many cis teens. i am a a bass baritone when it comes to singing the mens chorus teacher at my school keeps trying to get me to join.

Quote from: anibioman on April 17, 2013, 06:56:44 AM
my voice is as deep as many cis teens. i am a a bass baritone when it comes to singing the mens chorus teacher at my school keeps trying to get me to join.

I think my singing voice is now clearly tenor (almost 7 weeks on T). My voice for talking is also about like a teenager's. Funny given my age. But I guess you *can* be teenage twice.

--Jay

I have only met a small handful of cis men with deep voices, and they were all in their 50's and 60's. I rarely hear any cis men no matter where I go with extremely deep, let alone "booming" deep voices, especially not younger men. I know some men who are cis, and straight with higher pitched voices and one who can do a woman's voice with little effort. Most cis men I meat have moderate voices, not high pitched but not really all that deep either.

Rick Astley is a baratone and recorded Never Gonna Give You Up when he was 21...Lance Bass from Nsync has a pretty low voice, too.

My voice recently dropped and sounds a bit less squeaky and a bit smoother, if it can drop like any cisdude's without the help of any T, natural or injected, I think HRT should produce some pretty good results in the voice department. I've only heard of issues with people still having female inflections in their voice and "sounding gay", or not being able to sing properly because they're using a female technique or something. I don't know why the NHS would say that, seems pretty insensitive IMHO.

Really, I'd say everything comes down to genetics, just like all other changes.