Hello all,

Everyone knows the stereotypical Trans* Narrative...

Is it reasonable that all trans* people should fit into "The" Narrative? (The Main Question)

Sub-Questions

Should all Trans* people know at a young age that they were supposed to be

• ?
  
  Do all trans* people experience severe gender dysphoria?
  
  Does everyone play with masculine/feminine toys at a young age?
  
  [Edited for clarity]
  
  Do all pre-transition trans* people pretend to be their birth gender to fit in as cisgender? (Before they come out)
  
  Do all of us cross-dress at a young age?
  
  Or do we agree that Trans* people have very diverse experiences affected by their environments?
  
  Or is "The" Narrative a stronghold to weather against the claim that being trans* "is a choice"?
  
  Or is "The" Narrative a myth constructed by the media?
  
  All of the above, none of the above, some of the above, or most of the above...which do you agree with or disagree with?
  
  This is meant to be a friendly discussion, not a debate so relax and express your personal opinion. Feel free to choose some, most, or all of the above questions to answer; it's totally up to you.
  
  Forever Lost in thought,
  
  -Skye

 The only question that I feel necessarily requires an answer is the first one.

Simply, it's not reasonable to assume that any group of people fits into any popular narrative. Human beings are not like the machinery we've created, or like simpler animals - there are always exceptions. In some stereotypes, there are more exceptions than in others, and the trans stereotype is a great example of just how diverse human beings are.

Blanket stories don't work in the real world. However, they do make for a practical medium when one needs to explain something to a massive number of people... These sorts of clichés are not meant to always be statements of truth, or even to be so most of the time; they're just used because they're probably the easiest way for the media to teach the world about how it views something at a time. And so, this "Narrative" evolves over time, alongside the people, in a steady stream of progressive indoctrination. It's just a small part of how our culture changes daily, yearly.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM

Or is "The" Narrative a myth constructed by the media?

I'd say constructed with the media.  I feel that the current narrative is predominant because it's the closest to being seen as an "acceptable reason" why someone would feel the need to transition.  When this narrative started receiving media attention, and then a modicum of public acceptance in response to those early media stories, it was natural for people to model their own stories to resemble it.
For a population such as ours, who suffer widespread vilification, a narrative that invites any measure of sympathy from the larger population is going to be appealing, even if by adopting it we do ourselves harm by creating that familiar "not trans enough" feeling we get when we don't perfectly match the "I always knew" story.

Skye

You're having a lot of doubts thrown at you.

This just obfuscation, putting forward so many things which you just have to consider and be capable of rationalising, before you will be taken seriously to be 'allowed to' 'do that' or 'be like them'.

It's stupid. The issues for you are quite clear and simple. You know what they are and you know what you want to do.

I don't and I won't try to guide you, no-one here will. Susans', like all respectable sources, informs.

Now relax and ignore these psuedo feminists with their narrative paranoias.

I doubt they even know what a narrative is!

No. Especially given the narrative completely ignores the existence of non-binary folks, like myself. I fit only a couple of those--the early age and severe dysphoria. Otherwise I'm almost, but not entirely, completely unlike The Trans* Narrative(tm).

That narrative scares me. I think it screws people up. Distorts people's thinking. And makes everyone feel weirder and more alone. It is a hold over from the very early days of diagnosis, when doctors were looking for some kind of structure or consistency to the patients they were treating. But what ended up happening is that people started lying to support that narrative, because it was the only way to get access to treatment.

I think it's dominant in the media because they kind of hate complexity. They want one simple straightforward answer: "I'm a woman born in a man's body." Or whatever. They don't want to deal with all the squiggly vagaries of our lives and identities. And there are enough of us that feel similarly, that want one one simple straightforward answer, that they can easily find what they are looking for. Or force peoples' narratives to fit that format.

I mean there are trans people out there and public, like say, Rae Spoon, who are distinctly non-narrative trans people, but the mainstream media doesn't want anything to do with them.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM

Should all Trans* people know at a young age that they were supposed to be

• ?
  

No, of course not. I didn't know until I was 50. Lots of people knew even later than that.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Do all trans* people experience severe gender dysphoria?

No, though a lot of the ones who don't, don't transition (why transition if you're not pretty unhappy the way you are).

I never had body dysphoria, never hated my lower parts (though I always wished they were girl parts).

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Does everyone play with masculine/feminine toys at a young age?

Not me. Had my share of toy six guns and toy soldiers. Never asked for dolls or stuffed animals

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM

Do all of us cross-dress at a young age?

I never cross dressed at any age. Only started when I wanted to be accepted as a woman socially.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM

Or is "The" Narrative a stronghold to weather against the claim that being trans* "is a choice"?

Or is "The" Narrative a myth constructed by the media?

I think the "I always knew" narrative was concocted to avoid having transgender sound like a phase or a whim. I don't think the public (or maybe anyone) understand latent transgender. Likewise the "trapped" narrative is effective in eliciting sympathy. Who doesn't hate feeling trapped.

But I have met people who say they always knew and feel trapped, so it's not a total myth, just not as widespread among trans* people as is commonly believed.

Heck I AM a transgender person and I knew precisely squat before I found Susan's place (ok I learned a couple of things at a less than friendly earlier location that resulted in my meeting a person that mentioned Susan's place).

I don't expect non trans people to understand just about anything considering how frequently I see persons new to this place that come here knowing as little as I did and are transgender like me.

Why should a 5 year old know jack about anything, they're 5 years old, they only recently mastered not defecating in their pants!!

My sister is 100% cis female, she climbed trees with me, played in creeks like me, and she was a tom boy. She liked dolls like most girls though, and tended to like boys as most girls do, but also joined the Army cadets with me (never understood that she hates authority). She didn't like models like me, loved horses instead.

I don't think there is any such thing as gender specific childhood. But young girls learn about menstrual cycles, and boys learn about erections and what happens after. And teens that are taught by idiots and dogma, often suffer unwanted pregnancies as no one is teaching them anything actually useful.

None of us choose a damned thing about what we are, but, we sometimes cave in to the *#@& and make the choice to not rock the boat. And some of us can't take it and we kill ourselves over it. Some fall for the lies and garbage so well we even believe the lies and garbage, and then later in life we realize we were lied to.

And then, it is a choice if we accept it or not, but, none of us actually choose what we are, we simply choose how we deal with the knowledge.

Did I choose to be female? No.
Did I choose to tell people I was? Yes.
Will I rip out your throat if you are mean to me about it? Depends, if we are alone, you are in danger.

There's no cursed dysphoria in my life. I am not suffering any disease. And I don't think a piece of paper on a wall makes a shrink magically smarter than me either, considering all the education I am more than happy to crush him under if it becomes a contest of minds.

I don't know everything, but I sure am ok with defending what I DO know.

There is no 'narrative', their is a lot of dogma and misrepresentation, misreporting, disinformation, outright lies, hatred and confusion out there though. Beware what you get told, some will have agendas, some will just be stupidity, some will be honest ignorance.

I could talk all day about 'facts' that aren't. I gave up a teen life of sports and cliche activities to sit stuck in text books for years.
I don't know who or what is happening in sports, but I am what a person looks like when they are a walking encyclopedia

Hey Skye,

I think the typical narrative does not represent every person.  I've noticed that you seem very conscious of the fact that you don't fit into that narrative and as a result question your identity.  Let me say, you know yourself best.  Just because you don't fit into a box or somebody else's image of what being trans is, it does not exclude you from being trans yourself.  Only you can know who you are and what you want in life.  The past does not always tell us how we wish you to proceed in life. 

Now for the questions (hoping that the insert quote function works as it is the first time using it,lol).

"Is it reasonable that all trans* people should fit into "The" Narrative? (The Main Question)"

No, we are all different and have diverse experiences. 

"Should all Trans* people know at a young age that they were supposed to be

• ?"
  No, this is not the case for everyone.  I had experiences while younger, but didn't start realizing something was wrong until I was 10-11.  Some realize it when they are younger than this and some when they are older.
  
  "Do all trans* people experience severe gender dysphoria?"
  
  I don't know, but I imagine they would have to experience gender dysphoria to some degree.  Otherwise, I would not know why they would desire to transition and go through with everything.  Of course, the term transgender is not exclusive to transsexuals. It also includes cross dressers, bigender, and androgynous people as well.  They may very well not have much or any dysphoria, but I can't say for sure because I have't lived their experience.
  
  "Does everyone play with masculine/feminine toys at a young age?"
  
  No.  I personally played with both as a child.  I had boy toys that I loved, but I grew up with sisters and always played with them as well.
  
  "Do all trans* people pretend to be masculine/feminine to fit in as cisgender?"
  
  I don't really get this one.  I think some people feel the need to be more masculine or feminine to try and fit in, but this applies to cisgender people as well.  Everyone loves to be accepted and be part of the crowd.  This is not exclusive to trans people.  Also, some people just naturally identity and behave one way or another.  However, there are plenty of feminine males and masculine women around. 
  
  "Do all of us cross-dress at a young age?"
  
  No, not all of us had access to do so.  I personally started at a young age, but that is not the case for everyone.  Also, it was not always a thing I did frequently because I had a lot of shame and guilt about doing it.
  
  "Or do we agree that Trans* people have very diverse experiences affected by their environments?"
  
  Yes.
  
  "Or is "The" Narrative a stronghold to weather against the claim that being trans* "is a choice"?"
  
  Yes and no.  Some people fit into the narrative and others don't.  But, I do believe some people are pressured into adopting the narrative for the sake of acceptance.
  
  

I think the popular narrative is just a hodgepodge of experiences that SEEM to be displayed by a statistically significant amount of people. Certainly, you don't need to experience every aspect of it to be trans. Being trans is completely self-diagnostic. If you say you are, then you are. I mean why would someone go through HRT if they weren't? That would be silly. And if you didn't have GID before HRT, you certainly will after and vice versa.

I try not to worry about the typical narrative too much.  Was I born male?  yes.  Do I want to be female?  yes.  That's good enough for me

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Hello all,

Everyone knows the stereotypical Trans* Narrative...

Is it reasonable that all trans* people should fit into "The" Narrative? (The Main Question)

I believe the 'typical' narrative is bunk. It doesn't fit me, nor does it fit others I know.

QuoteSub-Questions

Should all Trans* people know at a young age that they were supposed to be

• ?

I didn't 'know' until I was 12. That said, I was aware before then that I was 'different' to my male peers.

QuoteDo all trans* people experience severe gender dysphoria?

My gender dysphoria has waxed and waned over the years - and I've never had severe gender dysphoria. I've never really had body dysphoria either, just the simple knowledge that it was wrong.

QuoteDoes everyone play with masculine/feminine toys at a young age?

As a child, I either played with masculine toys, like Star Wars toys, or gender neutral toys, like Lego. I did seem to have more stuffed toys then the average 'male' though.

Quote[Edited for clarity]

Do all pre-transition trans* people pretend to be their birth gender to fit in as cisgender? (Before they come out)

I used to think I did. Kind of. I was a femme gay guy for a long time before I came out and I've realised that was more the real me than I ever wanted to acknowledge at the time. The fact that so few of my friends or family were surprised when I came out was kind of telling.

QuoteDo all of us cross-dress at a young age?

Not as a child, not once that I can recall. But after I 'worked it out', yes. From about the age of 12 onwards. And even that came and went over the years.

QuoteOr do we agree that Trans* people have very diverse experiences affected by their environments?

We are a diverse group of people, so it stands to reason we will all have diverse experiences.

QuoteOr is "The" Narrative a stronghold to weather against the claim that being trans* "is a choice"?

As I said earlier, I think the 'Narrative' is bunk - the only places I've ever seen it mentioned are trans-related places, like here. None of my friends or family has ever led me to believe they are aware of it.

QuoteOr is "The" Narrative a myth constructed by the media?

It's a myth for sure - I'm not sure it was constructed by the media though.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Is it reasonable that all trans* people should fit into "The" Narrative? (The Main Question)

The only way I know to answer this is to answer the questions for myself. In a way, I'm so new to the narative that I'm not familiar with it. So I suppose this is a good way for me to go about answering your question. Let's begin!

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AMSub-Questions
Should all Trans* people know at a young age that they were supposed to be

• ?

In my case, I always felt overwhelmingly out of place. I would look up at adults and when I thought "I want to be like X" I always thout of women. So in a way I suppose this is true. But because I never thought of it as an option, as I didn't realize you actualy could change your gender, I kinda took the position, "You're stuck with what you got" for about 28 years or so. I did enjoy playing with my action figures, but I also would play with my sister's barbie dolls. That's common for most children though, I susspect. And I could keep going with stuff like that.

What it boils down to: I've always felt out of place as a guy, and have always wished I was born as one of the girls. However I never concidered seriously that I was trans until 3 years ago, simply because until I took an anthropology course, I kinda though I was stuck and that was that. I will say that over time (even before I realized my true options) that sense of dysphoria grew more and more, and now it's almost driving me nuts.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Do all trans* people experience severe gender dysphoria?

I can't speak for everyone. But me, I'd call mine severe. Severe as in I think about it nearly all the time.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Does everyone play with masculine/feminine toys at a young age?

Yes. But I don't think this is exclusive to transgendered people. My sister played with my action figures every bit as often as I played with her barbie dolls, and she's now your average woman and wouldn't ever want to be a man.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Do all pre-transition trans* people pretend to be their birth gender to fit in as cisgender? (Before they come out)

I wouldn't call it pretend at this point so much as "CONFORM OR ELSE".

I had it litteraly, mentaly, and physically beat into me how to be a guy from an early age. I don't know that I'd call it pretend. More like a survival issue for me. I susspect when I start transitioning that the hardest part of letting myself be the person I know I am will be to go against what is for me a survival instinct beaten into me at the age of 3/4.

For me it's not pretend. It's a lie I tell simply to survive and fit in, and I tell it all the time out of fear.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Do all of us cross-dress at a young age?

I didn't. But I wouldn't have dared after the abuse I went through.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Or do we agree that Trans* people have very diverse experiences affected by their environments?

I think everyone has very diverse experiences. I'd be stupid to not think that the stuff I've been through didn't affect me in any way. Of course it has. And I'm willing to bet that some people here have had the same experiences, while others have had totaly opposite ones.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Is "The" Narrative a stronghold to weather against the claim that being trans* "is a choice"?

I can't speek for everyone. And since I'm not entierly sure of what the trans narative is, I can't be sure what you're talking about entierly. I do know that for me it's not a choice. It's who I am on a very fundamental level. I'm a woman. I do know that since accepting to myself that this is what I am, I have learned more about myself, and a lot of it simply re-enforces what I already know: It's not a choice. And the few times I've done it, it's been interesting seeing people's expressions when I compare finger diget ratios and explain how hormone levels before we're born are what cause it. I'm aware that's just a theory. But in my case, it's a theory that makes a lot of stuff about me make a hell of a lot of sense.

Quote from: Sky-Blue on April 18, 2013, 01:25:45 AM
Or is "The" Narrative a myth constructed by the media?

I've only seen stories about transgendered/transexual people in the media twice that I can remember outside of links from this site. I've only seen two movies with transexuals in them (neither of which were exactly . . . positive examples). I wouldn't call that much of a narrative for me to go on from them. Most of the narrative I've looked at are research studies, half of which I admit I don't fully understand.

Do I fit? I don't know. But I susspect while some of these questions may be answered similarly by many, most will be different, and no two people would answer this the same way.

Quote from: Sarah7 on April 18, 2013, 07:30:10 AM
No. Especially given the narrative completely ignores the existence of non-binary folks, like myself. I fit only a couple of those--the early age and severe dysphoria. Otherwise I'm almost, but not entirely, completely unlike The Trans* Narrative(tm).

That narrative scares me. I think it screws people up. Distorts people's thinking. And makes everyone feel weirder and more alone. It is a hold over from the very early days of diagnosis, when doctors were looking for some kind of structure or consistency to the patients they were treating. But what ended up happening is that people started lying to support that narrative, because it was the only way to get access to treatment.

I think it's dominant in the media because they kind of hate complexity. They want one simple straightforward answer: "I'm a woman born in a man's body." Or whatever. They don't want to deal with all the squiggly vagaries of our lives and identities. And there are enough of us that feel similarly, that want one one simple straightforward answer, that they can easily find what they are looking for. Or force peoples' narratives to fit that format.

I mean there are trans people out there and public, like say, Rae Spoon, who are distinctly non-narrative trans people, but the mainstream media doesn't want anything to do with them.

haha ahaha ok i was going to say something and then you took away every thought.  every single one.  congratulation. :')