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How global are we really?

Started by Lesley_Roberta, April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM

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Lesley_Roberta

Here I sit in Canada, about the free est of the free world. I will even say the much ballyhooed USA is not as free as Canada. I certainly have the edge in some key laws.

But it's convenient I am in Canada, I wonder, how much of the rest of the world is as able as me?

Saudi Arabia, yeah I can see that country being a bastion of freedom (insert snarky laughing).

What about truly impoverished nations?

What about places like China where life is cheap?

I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.

Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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Devlyn

Aw, shucks, we wouldn't be so ballyhooed if you Canadians didn't tell everyone how wonderful we are here in the US!

To your question, I thought ->-bleeped-<- only became ostracized in modern times? I haven't studied the issue, but I recall seeing it here before.
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lightvi

Well I know at some point in Indian culture the third gender was considered special and even revered. I'm not sure about other places or histories.
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XchristineX

I'm a Canadian first nation...
@$%&+ I love the fact that hitting me is a hate crime..

I can pretty much go about my business as I please..
I even tell everyone who questions my sexuality...
I'm sure in the USA I would have been raped and beaten to
Death by now the way I carry on LOL..

It seems in canada its a pride or honor badge to have any friend
That isn't conforming...
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peky

what do you mean Canada is separated from the USA? I thought they were just another state of the union, like the UK, AUS, Oz, etc  ::)
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Henna

I'm from Finland, the country that is advertised as the most liberal and most free thinking country in the world. Where we are always the first to defend human rights and implement laws, that uphold the human rights and peoples free will and right to make their own choices. Where we always rush among the first, to upkeep peace.

Or that's how we are thought at school and how things are portrayed to outside world.

Unfortunately, we are starting to be among the last countries in Europe, where people of same gender cannot marry and discussion in parliament results representatives of the parliament handling the issue as such, that next pigs and man can marry. A country where being a MTF or FTM means, that you need to be sterilized if you want your gender to be recognized. And because same gender cannot marry, you also need to divorce and settle for registered relationship.

A country that in deep down is quite homophobic and transphobic. A country where if you say you are a MTF or FTM, it means that shrinks need to examine your head for a six month to a year.

So yeah, liberal Scandinavian country...at least officially and in travel agency's advertisement.

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XchristineX

Quote from: Henna on April 19, 2013, 10:25:33 PM
I'm from Finland, the country that is advertised as the most liberal and most free thinking country in the world. Where we are always the first to defend human rights and implement laws, that uphold the human rights and peoples free will and right to make their own choices. Where we always rush among the first, to upkeep peace.

Or that's how we are thought at school and how things are portrayed to outside world.

Unfortunately, we are starting to be among the last countries in Europe, where people of same gender cannot marry and discussion in parliament results representatives of the parliament handling the issue as such, that next pigs and man can marry. A country where being a MTF or FTM means, that you need to be sterilized if you want your gender to be recognized. And because same gender cannot marry, you also need to divorce and settle for registered relationship.

A country that in deep down is quite homophobic and transphobic. A country where if you say you are a MTF or FTM, it means that shrinks need to examine your head for a six month to a year.

So yeah, liberal Scandinavian country...at least officially and in travel agency's advertisement.


O m g.   That sounds like hell...I'm sooo sorry for your life.
Situation :(
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Beth Andrea

Of course there are TG people in every corner of the world...but keep in mind that "tolerance" is around only because of enforcement by the State.

Most people will say they accept us, but the reality is, that if the gov't was not there to act upon them we would be screwed. LGBTaphobia, sexism, racism, etc are apparently a natural function in the human mind.

imho
...I think for most of us it is a futile effort to try and put this genie back in the bottle once she has tasted freedom...

--read in a Tessa James post 1/16/2017
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Ltl89

Yeah, there are trans people all over; however, the society in question could place unnecessary constraints on gender expression and transitioning. As a result, it may appear that there are more transgender people in open societies. 
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noeleena

Hi,

Commonwealth  Thank you . not a state,  New Zealand  down under,

I have been in Austraila  two times & coverd many 1000's of miles by plane , road & train .There are quite a few rednecks & non accepting people, not being trans or a dresser , iv only had acceptance where ever i have gone .& i will be there again next year ,

Thailand  a lovely people spent time with them again i was accepted as one of them ,  up further it can be very different as you go some other parts of asia . not been there so i cant say,

In the main a very accepting nation  though there will allways be some for what ever reason wont accept people of difference, no matter what it is about them or us,

It all comes down to the person concerned as to thier attitude so if acceptance is to be gained then you have to be accepting of others as well  some thing some trans & dresser's seem to forget  . so again its about attitude & respecting others,

In our islands most island people dont have a issue,  though when the English came here over 160 years ago they did not accept those people or thier culture so remember the western people have a lot to answer for  so again when thier attitude changes & for many it seems to be changeing then others may accept more fully,   

...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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Anatta


Kia Ora,

I've just watched this youtube doco on the Warias 'Transsexuals Muslims of Indonesia



Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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aleon515

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM
Here I sit in Canada, about the free est of the free world. I will even say the much ballyhooed USA is not as free as Canada. I certainly have the edge in some key laws.


It seems to me you are not really aware that you are actually part of the United States of Canada. Which should be separated from Jesusland. (This map is better than others because my state is NOT part of Jesusland):
Jesusland 2008

--Jay




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Cindy

Is tolerance and acceptance a function of others or of yourself?

I have not knowingly received negative gender/sex discrimination since going FT.

I do not discriminate against others.

But that comes with a big cost.  You have to accept people for who they are and what they believe. And not just accepting people who accept you and rejecting those who do not.

Is this global? Of course it is. I have never met a human being from any country that wasn't a human being, and I have travelled far.

Borders are very artificial, and rather silly.



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Lesley_Roberta

Some comments are quite good.

Liked that map aleon :) I wonder how many in the US are a ware of the Canadian Conspiracy :) You might not realize that Canada has been slowly absorbing you for quite some time :)

Acceptance and tolerance is as Cindy mentions, a two way street.

I don't really see squat in the way of acceptance of ME by the religious world, so they shouldn't be offended when I give it right back to them.
They see us in medical terms, fine, I consider being religious to be a clinically summed up condition as well. Hey I could point out how believing in imaginary people makes you technically crazy. And that's just the beginning.

I am aware of why so much of us, makes them so 'afraid'. We undermine their sense of security, we ruin their much needed rigidly defined reality. It was adam and eve not adam and steve and adam and eve who became adam and george and adam and bob who became eve.

But they don't seem to be willing to accept, that they are a very scary bunch themselves. Every single time something bad happens, the knee jerk response is to blame it on the current round of religious hate fest between religious groups. And let's be blunt, telling me 'well they are not representative of religion and religious people as a whole', doesn't make me feel safer.

It's sad to think, there might be soooo many more of us, if not for the fact they need to hide just to protect their lives.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
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ford

My doctor just got back to the US after a few years working in rural Africa. When she was prescribing me T, she told me that she came across very few trans folk in Africa. 'There should be more,' she said, 'but there aren't.'

It got me thinking that in a way it could be about wealth and standard of living. If you're living a rough life in rural Africa, you might not be able to afford to 'be yourself' because there are so many other things to worry about. Or perhaps it's a fear thing because it's even less acceptable than in more developed parts of the world. Or maybe you just don't have exposure to trans knowledge and role models, so you just consider yourself sad and broken and never really discover the cause. I dunno, but it sure got me thinking.

Hope that was at least sort of related to the topic.
"Hey you, sass that hoopy Ford Prefect? There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!"
~Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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sylvannus

#15
Global. I would like to show you what life is as a TG in China. Maybe after reading you will understand why my entire family have an iron solid way believing I am destroying my self in madness by starting female transition.

A conservative estimation proposed that there should be 400 000 transsexual (not TG) folks in China , but only a few thousand dare to come out (Book: Wu XingRen 吴兴人. Correcting the mistake of God 纠正上帝的错误. Shanghai Literature and Art Press. 1 Aug. 2005). The discrimination is serious, partially due to communism which ignores human rights; partially because of Confuciusm, the major religion of China for 2 200 years. Confuciusm is transphobic and believes that being transgender is worse than death. It advocates that TG folks would better seek death than going through transition. For thousands of years, castration has been the harshest punishment second to a death execution, if not equal to. In addition, only before the 1980s, lynching execution of LGBT people would receive no punishment from the law court, because it was heroism, because it "cleansed" the society.

In addition, the Confuciusm advocates that a man's body does not belong to himself. Instead, it belongs to his parents, especially father (women? They are no more than tradable goods). (身体发肤,受之父母,不敢毁伤) Perhaps now you understand why corporal punishment is common in Asian education: Parents are only "adjusting" their own property by hitting their children's body, and the police never take care about it unless it has caused death or disability. In the old times, parents had the power to order their children to die who had to obey (父要子亡,子不得不亡), and even cutting hair without parents' permission was a crime.

Nowadays, even if you are 40 or 50 years old, perfectly an adult, to access the assessment of GID and to obtain the permission of SRS, you still need written approvals of your parents. According to the people in the TG community who I know, most have to produce a fake signature because otherwise it would be absolutely impossible to get, although this might bring them certain legal headaches thereafter.

I once heard that "if ignoring religion factors, tolerance towards LGBT is often proportional to levels of democracy". Although the Chinese constitution says all human beings are born equal, there is no specific law ensuring it. In 2010, a governmental action was performed on a celebrity, the famous dancer Jin Xing (金星). She was forbidden to appear on the TV because "her transgender identity could have negative effects on society" as stated by a government administrative order. Jin Xing performs mostly overseas in US or Europe but is not quite accepted in China due to her "dirty backgrounds". In fact, transsexualism is approximately equal to "sexual worker" in many traditional people's eyes.

OK, although have been discriminated, Jin Xing is so talented and she fought a path through and has achieved a decent life. How about other people who do not have such a strong position? There was a piece of news in 2007 when a transgender singer committed suicide because of discrimination. Her suicide note was: "我曾经以为,我变了性,就可以改变我的人生,可是变完性以后,却被人当动物看......中国的变性人不只一个人,可能每个人都像我一样,正在承受着不幸。为什么人们一但知道了你的变性身份,就会歧视你呢。我老老实实的做人,却要被人当动物一样围观。" {Translation: "I used to think, if I change to my desired sex, I can thus change my life. However, after my sex change, I was immediately discriminated like an animal rather than a human being... There are many more transsexuals besides me in China, and perhaps all of them are suffering just like me. Why people immediately turn to discrimination against you as soon as knowing your transgender past? I am always an honest human being, yet I am constantly surrounded and watched like an animal."}

There was another piece of news in 2012 about a Masters Graduate of Fudan University (China's top-5 university). She mentioned in a journalist interview that after she went through FT and went for a job interview, at first the interviewers showed a perfect satisfactory. However the moment when they heard that she had been a boy, they did not even bother to hide their dramatic change in expression and rejected her with no hesitate. After surgery, she desperately became unemployed and even once had to work as a wine server in a nightclub for 2 months (in Shanghai, this is not far from a sexual worker). She was even starved for a period living on the donation from friends although she had nice skills and a Master's degree. Once, the headmaster of Fudan University helped her to get a position in a high school. Sadly, when the parents of her students heard about she was a TG, they gathered at the school protesting that she was evil and will destroy their children and the school must kick her. Soon the school surrendered to the pressure and fired her. Another sad story, yet not new on this land.

To live a life in China as a TG, if one does not want to live as a sexual worker, he/she must be extremely careful and keep a full stealth. If their appearance does not pass well enough and betrays them, they will very likely to be rejected from house rental, restaurants, schools, gyms, work places, etc. They will have total failure struggling to live a normal life just because they are TG.

In fact, even in Australia, most students who were born in China who know my past tend to keep a distance from me, as if I am bearing a deadly infectious disease. Every time when I see them sitting together talking and try to go to sit with them, those who know my past will immediately stand up and find an excuse and go away. Several Asians, including Indonesian, Malaysian Chinese, and Chinese, paid extra money (seemed $100 such) to the University Village only to move away from the house that I am living in. Of course there are many good people among the Chinese, but I am really feeling tired of dealing with "my people".





People can change their legal gender identity in most of China provided that they have gone through a complete SRS and are sterilized. Plus, because homosexual marriage is illegal, all existing marriage will break up. However, in China the "legal" identity change is actually not legislation but an administrative instruction from the National Bureau of Police, which means this policy can easily be changed or cancelled at any time under the will of the Chief of the Police. This instruction was given in 2008, but actually the police agencies in most places were reluctant to put it into action until the 2010s, and it has still not come into effect in many places. In mainland China, it is somehow surprising case that post-op TS folks are allowed to marry after a legal identity change but it is not actually a sign of how friendly the society is towards TG. Instead, it is due to a complete blank of laws regarding transsexualism. For example, once a MTF person goes through a legal identity change, the only laws that fit on her thereafter will be the laws regarding birth females, and similar for FTM people.

To get the identity change, one must provide a certificate from a 3A level hospital (the highest level) illustrating that he/she has gone through a complete SRS, that he/she is sterile, and that his/her new genitals are typically male/female. What is confusing is that if they have not had SRS in one of the major public hospitals of China (e.g., overseas, or in private clinics), they might be rejected from this certification with no clear explanation, even if they have perfect new genitals. I suspect it might be some kind of local protectionism, but this is only my suspicion. I know a MTF transsexual friend, X. XT., who has had her SRS 4 years ago in Thailand. She is now living in Hong Kong under a temporary visa, but her civil records are still in Beijing. When she flied back seeking a legal identity and name change, several hospitals all rejected her request for a SRS certificate. She told me that in one of the hospitals, a kind doctor had already written the certificate but the head of the hospital refused to approve. With a few attempts she gave up. Now, after 4 years, she still has to live as a man in Hong Kong, partially because all her identity documents are still male, partially because fear of losing her job since lawyer is a sensitive career.

Nevertheless, because the identity change is not a law, the Ministry of Education refuses to recognize it and constantly rejects the change of education certificates for TG folks. If they go through transition and change their legal identity, the certificates will appear to belong to another person, "the man/woman" who has haunted them for decades. Therefore they must be prepared to live with no educational backgrounds, if they have missed the chance to complete their SRS and legal identity change before graduation. Sometimes it is even worse in some schools where their graduate and degree certificates will be based on their gender when they entered the school and even a legal identity change is not recognized. Furthermore, there is a same problem for those who are studying overseas (including myself), because if we would like to bring our degrees back into China, we will have to go through a local certification of our degrees by the Ministry of Education of China. We will have only one chance to do it -- normally at the time when we step into the country for the first time after graduation, and the certificate will never be changed once done. I have a friend, H. Y., who has been studying in the UK for a Master's degree. When she discovered that degree would be forever bound to the man because she received the local certificate as a male, she had to go into a PhD course although she does not like it at all. In addition she used all means to persuade her family to support her SRS before graduation. She was lucky as her mother at last supported her and this April she has just come back to UK from her SRS in Thailand. This is also one of my major concerns.

By saying "a TG will very likely to be rejected from house rental, restaurants, schools, gyms, work places, etc.", I mean also public schools. I know another MTF, S. YT., studying in a public university (Northeastern University of China) who would like to go through FT. However, recently, the university has given her a written notice stating that she will be discharged from the university if she goes through SRS without "permission of the school" which permission in fact never exists. Funny enough, a university believed it is in charge of SRS permission! But this is the reality. You can see the letter as attached. I am sorry that it is only in Chinese lacking an English version. To protect privacy, I have to mosaic her name.

She asked for a Leave of Absence because of severe depression, being ex-tremely suicidal and losing the ability to study. According to the last 3 lines of the notice, "She (name) must keep in close contact with the school during her therapy period and must always keep timely reports of her therapy status. She (name) will be discharged if she goes through SRS without permission of the university" (and obviously such a permission will never exists). Note this is a formal written notice given by a university officer representing the school.  If she was only leaving because of a broken leg or car accident, there would never be such ridiculous requirements. No wonder why she has got the severe depression -- any person will easily get into depression in such a social environment.

She is not alone. Another MTF friend of mine, C. PL., who is studying clinical science in Southern Medical University (also public), mentioned the school stated the same that if she goes through SRS, they will discharge her because of this. By the way, do you know what the local psychiatrists did to her when she went to them? They prescribed testosterone shots and several medicines that I cannot name, trying to turn her back into a man. Unfortunately this group of psychiatrists call this a "cure of GID". By the way, we have found that in China, different psychiatrists seem to harbor very different views towards GID and its therapy – it is a Russian roulette to find a therapist.

If you would like to look through as much Chinese local news as possible about TG (Google Translator will help), especially the comments below which reflect the common public opinions, I am sure you would find the same. There are even widespread rumours saying we all have less than 40 years of life and nearly everyone in China firmly believes in that. On Chinese forums I always hear people talking about 人妖 (slang for MTF transsexuals, literally means human demon) having shortened lifespans. However according to various academic reports, it cannot be further from the truth. A few years ago, TV programmes, newspapers and magazines call us human demons, but there has been a significant decline in recent years, which is a good sign.





How about parents? Their first reaction to my coming out text was:" no you will be discharged by university and deported by the Australian government!" After I took a week or so to prove them that it is absolutely impossible to discriminate LGBT in this way in Australia, they began to believe I was not serious and "naive, impulsive, crazy". Then I suggested them to visit any of the local psychologists, and they no longer say I was crazy, but began to show me how hard life will be if I go through transition, and their disappointment. My mother once said: "you were a decent human being, but want to become a human demon! That's madness. We will never allow that! Do you know how much effort we have made, how much difficulties we have experienced to bring you up, to educate you a decent man? We never had any entertainment, we never had any enjoyment; all was devoted to you! Are you going to repay us, repay our white hair and decades of hard-working by becoming a human demon?" My father added:" If you should become a human demon, please do not disclose any relationship with us. Never use your name and family name, never say you were our child, never come to your birth town, never say you were born here, and never talk about your education records! We don't want to be a human demon's parents; we don't want to be looked upon; we don't want to be that kind of famous."

Luckily, these were not face-to-face talks; they were online chats. If they have been face-to-face talks, for several of the times they would have ended up by my father swinging his fist and I flee from the house. However, my parents must be masters in emotional manipulation; they can always accurately hit my weakest point in a few words and make me depressed for days.

Mon and dad actually believe I am totally destroying my life in madness. Mother complained a few days ago that because of me, both of she and my father have gone into tears for numerous times. Now they feel so depressed that they are not feeling healthy and have resigned from their jobs. Thus they will have a rather low income and they will cut off any support to me. I feel so sorry for them feeling sick because of me. My mom asked me to pending my transition, stop medication, and only crossdress in private so that I can avoid discrimination for my career life, until I make a big fortune or retire... Several of my TG friends agree with her, but I feel reluctant to accept.

To tell another story, I know a friend, Y. XB., whose uncle is the local deputy police chief of the small town where she was born. Two years ago, the family withdrew her from the university without the confirmation of herself, and then made a long-range flash raid across 3 000 km to capture her from the univer-sity using handcuffs. They planned to lock her in a small dark room forever. Yes, of course these are absolutely illegal, but even the university offered ac-quiescence. Fortunately, after a few months under illegal imprisonment, she managed to escape by climbing over a wall. Nevertheless, until now, she doesn't have any ID documents or education certificate or driving licence, be-cause these have all been detained by her family, which makes life extremely hard. She could not even find a decent job because she has no education certificate, and she is still using my bank account because she could not open one of her own without an ID document.

I know that China is obviously not the worse place in the world for TG folks. But anyway I am a coward and never dared to come out even a little before leaving that country.






PS: Yes I have known a lot of TG folks in the Chinese TG community. However the name abbreviations listed are only to distinguish persons and may or may not be accurate. For translation of Chinese names I use this form: Surname -- Given names, e.g., Jin (金) Xing (星), Wu (吴) XingRen (兴人).
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Felix

Just about spittaked on the term "jesusland" XD

I would imagine that a lot of people's stories stay untold even in progressive or wealthy countries, so gosh knows what it's like very far outside of any given sphere of experience.
everybody's house is haunted
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Donna Elvira

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on April 19, 2013, 08:25:10 PM

I find it ludicrous to think being transgender is a function of standard of living, but, it seems hard to ponder persons having much capacity to be who they might really be, if they live in a place that would consider it a death sentence to do so.

Do we have anyone on site that knows of anyone that has come from these unlikely regions?

Hi
If you remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory, "Self-Actualisation" was at the top of the pyramide, "Safety" was second from the bottom, just after basic physiological needs ie. food, water, sleep etc..

I'm not sure that things are always as clear cut as described in Maslow's model but if you are faced between a choice of survival and fully living and expressing your inner identity, survival probably comes first and this probably explains why TG's are less visible in some cultures than in others. In a similar manner, there is far less clinical depression in countries where daily life is just about surviving than in the rich world where we have have much higher expectations.

That being said and concerning us, I believe that  sometimes, the need to  express that inner identity is so strong that it can become a question of survival. I think about this a lot as I try to navigate between the need to survive, which starts with having a job and maintaining relationships, and the need to put an end to an inner  conflict that I have struggled with for more than 50 years. 
Bises
Donna
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peky

Wherever I go in this globalized world....I see....a sea of people in BLUE JEANS.....drinking COCA COLA....while listening ROCK'N'ROLL...in an I-PHONE....and everywhere you can find somebody who speaks AMERICAN..

So, yeah, we are very "globalized," everything that happen in the world is instantly known everywhere...we are so globalized that I know about the struggle of our sisters and brothers in China and Indonesia...I also know of the most pro TG/TS country in the world...ARGENTINA...where you do not need anybodies permission to get an SRS or HRT or change your name, and homosexuals marriage is the Law..WOW

Despite been religious I would agree that most of the injustice and lack of progress we are entitled as human beings..is due to religious extremists....May G-d condemn them to eternal hell
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spacial

Quote from: peky on April 19, 2013, 09:30:00 PM
what do you mean Canada is separated from the USA? I thought they were just another state of the union, like the UK, AUS, Oz, etc  ::)

I know a number of Tory types and almost all of UKIP would like that. But I digress.

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