I applied for an apprenticeship and by some miracle I got through their online tests and have been invited to an assessment next week.  I've applied using my female name and stuff like that, but I've not worn female clothing for anything other than my job where I just can't justify spending the money on male clothes when I'll be read as female anyway due to the apron highlighting my hips.  There's no lee way in my mind that I'll be going to this day in male clothing; I'm not putting myself through an entire day of humiliation and dysphoria for anyone.

So.  What do you wear for something like this?  From the information provided it's going to mainly be assessments, with an interview thrown in there as well, and they state the dress code as "There is a smart dress-code in place for the duration of the day and we therefore ask candidates to refrain from wearing trainers or denim clothing. Whilst we want you to be comfortable, it is important to remember that this is a job interview and your first chance to make a good impression with your future employer."  It's for an engineering role, so I'm thinking a suit is a bit too much, but I don't know what else to go for.

I'm thinking a plain light blue button down shirt or something for the top half, with a jumper if it's still chilly.  Is this too casual for the bottom half? &noOfRefinements=1]http://www.bhs.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?beginIndex=1&viewAllFlag=&catalogId=34096&storeId=13077&productId=5668733&langId=-1&sort_field=Relevance&categoryId=471622&parent_categoryId=471108&pageSize=40&refinements=category~[1056991|471622]&noOfRefinements=1 because I'm worried about being over dressed.
Or do I need to go all out? For example: &noOfRefinements=1]http://www.bhs.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?beginIndex=1&viewAllFlag=&catalogId=34096&storeId=13077&productId=5275043&langId=-1&sort_field=Relevance&categoryId=471622&parent_categoryId=471108&pageSize=40&refinements=category~[1056991|471622]&noOfRefinements=1

Neither of the links worked for me.

Honestly, I'd go in a white button down, untucked, with a pair of khaki or grey slacks with brown shoes/belt for the khaki and black shoes/belt for the grey. The untucked look is casual but still smart, and if it appears everyone else has tucked you can always do it and you'll have a belt already, which is appropriate for a tucked shirt.

http://1st-dress-shirts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/25-button-down-shirts.jpg

Picture describes what I'm talking about.

If you want to up the style you can go with a skinny tie in a mellowed out maroon/wine color. Matte finish would be perfect, but satin is alright. Leaving the top button on the collar undone with the tie somewhat loose around the neck (but not gaping) is a very 'in' style right now.

The look is very metro and works for both men and women.

The links didnt work for me either but I pretty much agree with everything randomroads has said. I went to something like this for an electrician apprenticeship and mostly everyone was wearing jeans, shorts, t-shirts. I saw 2 older guys actually dressed up. But the company never stated a dress code so I guess it is helpful for you to know what type of clothes to wear. Good luck tho! I hope you get the job! 

Sorry, normally I check that the links work.

The more casual trousers were these:

My father thinks I should wear a full suit, but I don't know if that would make me look like I'm not able to fit in with my peers if they're all in more casual stuff.  And that would mean buying a male suit.

There's no such thing as overdressing for a job interview. As you know, there's only one chance to make a first impression. Be the guy who cared enough to look professional, not cool. Listen to your Dad (and Auntie Devlyn).
Good luck, hugs, Devlyn

Sorry for all the quick replies.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 30, 2013, 05:44:40 PM
There's no such thing as overdressing for a job interview. As you know, there's only one chance to make a first impression. Be the guy who cared enough to look professional, not cool. Listen to your Dad (and Auntie Devlyn).
Good luck, hugs, Devlyn

I'm nervous that I'm going to weird them out because as far as they know I'm female, and I don't really want to out myself until I get the job where it's too late for them to discriminate against me.  I know they shouldn't, but wouldn't it be much less hassle to hire a cis person than a trans one, especially since I'll be living onsite for the first year in shared accommodation (that's a hurdle I'll work out if it comes to it.)

In an ideal world I'd take a tie along and throw it on if it seems appropriate, but thinking about it rationally that seems like a bad move with the whole gender thing coming into play.  For a female I suppose that a shirt and smart jumper would be fairly appropriate?

There isn't any way to overdress, otoh one thing I have heard is to dress like your boss would dress (if you can figure out what that would be).

--Jay

Three piece suit! lol always my go too and you don't have spend more than 50$ least not around here. Last week I visited a local Good Will (second hand store) and got pants, vest, shirt and jacket for about $40. If you really don't want to go that way, from your picture you seem to have a nice thin figure, I would suggest a buttoned up shirt tucked into some suit pants ($20 at walmart, have had mine for a year, they haven't broke) and a tie. If that's not your style I think if you can pull it off a button up single shade shirt with a sweater vest and some semi-formal pants is also a good way too go.

Honestly though in a formal situation nothing screams "Professional" more than a three piece. If it's a formal 'old style' place don't dress like a hipster. No skinny jeans/pants, no sweater, no hipster hat just don't do it (not that you were thinking of it, just saying) it screams "young hip rebel".

Anyways that's my opinion, take it or leave it.

Dress to impress.

You're not trying to "fit in with your peers" there. You're trying to get the job. Be the guy who shows up shining like a new penny. 

I mentioned trying to fit in with my peers because they've all seemed about teamwork and forming a community and things like that the whole time.

Looks like it might not happen now at all anyway because I didn't want to sign up for a specific time and then find out that the train times were more expensive at that time, now they've closed that time and it turns out I can't get to the earlier one without leaving the day before, and I'm guessing that's not a good way to start the day of an interview seeing as I don't have the money for a London hotel...

Alex, you should wear a suit. You can never overdress for a job interview (heck, I even got all dressed up for a job at a sandwich shop. The boss commented that I was the only person under age 20 to get that dressed up, hired me on the spot and made me a supervisor within a month. Dressing up seemed to work out for me there). If you're going to present as male eventually, I'd just wear a male suit as long as it fits properly. I just recently saw a pre-T FTM (or maybe she was just a butch lesbian? I have no idea) wearing a suit and it looked awful because the shirt was way too big around the neck and the shoulders were obviously not wide enough for the jacket.

If you're worried about discrimination, you can wear a female style suit and shirt but put in a skinny tie with it. You'll get the female presentation but also a touch of classy gender non-conformity.  I always loved the look, reminds me of the suffragette movement.

I get my suits from this store called Express (not sure if you have it in the UK) because they carry pretty affordable suits in small sizes (I know we're about the same size, and it's such a PITA to get small sizes in suits here in the US). This is what I basically wear to work (just I would never wear the scrunchy sleeved jacket):



You can easily masculinize this wearing a shirt that buttons up to your neck, and putting in the skinny tie. If you want a more manly look for the jacket, get a jacket that's a bit longer than the one in the photo. Or, you can also try on some sports coats in the boy's section just as long as it's the exact same shade of black/charcoal (or grey or navy) and same material as the pants.

And... for formal job interviews, don't wear anything that's brown. Seriously, I love brown suits, but they're (sadly) not very accepted for formal wear (unless you're Ronald Reagan). It's starting to change, and brown is perfectly fine for more casual office work after you get hired.

You might have some more leeway in dress since you're still a student, but you should def go all out in formal attire. And, if it turns out to be a bit more casual, you can always take the tie off, unbutton the top button, and casually throw the jacket over your shoulder.

Quote from: AlexanderC on April 30, 2013, 07:30:17 PM
I mentioned trying to fit in with my peers because they've all seemed about teamwork and forming a community and things like that the whole time.

Looks like it might not happen now at all anyway because I didn't want to sign up for a specific time and then find out that the train times were more expensive at that time, now they've closed that time and it turns out I can't get to the earlier one without leaving the day before, and I'm guessing that's not a good way to start the day of an interview seeing as I don't have the money for a London hotel...

You should call and see if they can squeeze you in for that time, explain that you can't make any other train. (And, Groupon (don't know if you have that in the UK...) often has cheap hotel offers if you look around)

Business casual would be a good choice. Button down shirt without the top button buttoned, pressed slacks, chinos, khakis, whatevs. A nice belt, and dress shoes. Tuck your shirt in. Srsly. Tuck it in.

I must be the only man on the planet that absolutely freakin hates it when people tuck in their shirts. It makes people look fat unless you're triangular and rail thin. Maybe I'm just used to people with beer guts tucking but it irks the hell out of me.

Quote from: randomroads on April 30, 2013, 08:53:47 PM
I must be the only man on the planet that absolutely freakin hates it when people tuck in their shirts. It makes people look fat unless you're triangular and rail thin. Maybe I'm just used to people with beer guts tucking but it irks the hell out of me.

You must be! aha no I agree, some people just don't have the shape for it, but if you are going for the formal look that Nygeel posted tucking in your shirt becomes like a rule. It just looks sloppy to have a formal button down un-tucked while wearing formal pants. But for the most part I personally prefer it tucked in, as demonstrated in the photos Nygeel posted, that mans not very triangular but it's been accented by having a tucked in shirt, thus making him appear more triangular than he actually is. Also you can't see that bum with an un-tucked shirt

As per your predicament though Alexander, I'd definitely give them a call and try to reschedule with them. Just explain to them that you can't catch the later train or what ever but that you're still very interested in the position as you feel you are a perfect fit for the company and as such you'd like to move your interview time. OR maybe they would be wiling to do a skype interview with you, since you aren't in London. Many bigger companies are willing to do this, at least over here. Just remember though a Skype interview is STILL and interview, dress as if you were right there in the room with them.

Also, do you have to present female in this job? From your image (only picture i've seen  of you) you pass. When I go to a job interview I'm presenting as me not as a man or a woman really. I let them figure it out. Usually the name, coupled with male clothing and a deeper voice and inner confidence causes people to assume male but i've found for the most part people will accept you as androgynous at the least. I don't know exactly how it is in the UK, as I haven't spent nearly enough time there, but it seems to me the culture is very open for the most part towards gender-benders. Yah know with idols like John Barrowman and Eddie Izzard, amongst others, running around.

Those who said "Dress for success" have the right idea.  I like Nygeel's approach.

I have been a hiring manager.  If you show up for an interview looking like a slob, your chances with me are nil.  If you look like you are ready to start that day, you have a much better chance. 

Cover up any tattoos.  Visible tats can be a demerit in many situations.

If possible, find out what the employees there typically wear.  Then wear something appropriate.

Quote from: randomroads on April 30, 2013, 08:53:47 PM
I must be the only man on the planet that absolutely freakin hates it when people tuck in their shirts. It makes people look fat unless you're triangular and rail thin. Maybe I'm just used to people with beer guts tucking but it irks the hell out of me.

Here are chubby guys with their shirts tucked in. Some fat guys look fat 'cause we're fat (and that's okay).

Quote from: Nygeel on April 30, 2013, 11:13:29 PM
Here are chubby guys with their shirts tucked in. Some fat guys look fat 'cause we're fat (and that's okay).

I revoke my earlier comment, these pics changed my mind, every guy looks good with his shirt tucked in. Don't get me wrong, an un-tucked shirt can work but daaamn. I would actually argue that some individuals with more fluff look much larger with an un-tucked shirt simply because of how it will tend to fit and fall. If you've got the build for it, un-tucked can be very nice, but "When in doubt, don't leave it out!"

I'm on the other side of this fence: I interview job candidates, including students looking for their first job, here in the UK. I completely agree with Nygeel's suggestion of smart trousers & a nice shirt with polished shoes. Don't go for any flamboyant colours or patterns though - something tasteful and understated is fine. It's up to you whether you wear a tie (take one with you just in case), but if you do choose to wear one, make sure it's understated: no loud patterns or bright colours, please. Also, no visible jewellery or tats.

If I were offering an engineering apprenticeship to young adults, candidates who turned up in jeans & a T-Shirt would be immediately off my list (unless their academic record is really impressive); candidates who turned up in a full 3-piece suit would look like they've been over-prepared by their parents and are trying too hard (so are they trying to compensate for a lack of skill?); but candidates turning up in smart business casual, preferably with a tie, would strike just the right note.

I would recommend that you let them know at some stage that you're trans, particularly since you're going to be living in shared accommodation. Didn't you say a couple of months ago that this place is particularly interested in promoting diversity in its workforce? It's up to you when you choose to bring it up and I understand completely why you might prefer to wait until you've got the offer in your hands before saying anything. The Equality Act 2010 does give you certain legal protection against discrimination on the grounds of your trans status. But they do need to know at some stage because they'll have a duty to protect you from discrimination and to offer you appropriate accommodation etc.

As for accommodation in London, there are quite a few cheaper hotels and bed & breakfasts on the outskirts of the city. Remember that you can stay somewhere inconvenient on the outskirts, and just catch the Tube in to your interview. Hotels in the centre of London are always ridiculously expensive.

There are also Youth Hostels, which are very reasonable: try here http://www.yha.org.uk/places-to-stay/london

And finally... spend some time this weekend doing your research about the company: what they do, where their offices are based, what plans they have for the future. Try to come up with two intelligent questions that you can ask them... because there's nothing an interviewer likes more than a well-prepared candidate, and they will ask whether you have any questions.

Good luck!

Maybe add a sweater (v- neck or round - depending on Your shirt). Leather loafers or mocassins with matching belt - in case You wear the sweater, You can neglect the belt color.