I suppose that  is the better way.


Corrected title typo

I didn't know he could sing what will he be resinging?

The goverment is really affaird of possibility of a military coup via Tea Party.  So they monitored them via IRS.  That was not a smart move.   

The executive branch is only loyal for its own view of the constitution. If military thinks the president and the legal goverment brakes the constitutional values they may coup. At least since Carter Era the left-of-center goverments have lived in the constant fear of a coup from FBI, CIA, NSA and expectionally from certain officers of the military. That was why General Petronius was fired. That is why the IRS monitored the Tea Party. It is really hard for the ''democratically elected goverment'' to fear its own people. At least from the end off  WW2 the Pentagon has been the agency that has the real power in the US Society. Presidents do what they want (Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr ) or live in the constant danger off a coup.

Who is General Petronius? 

Yes, the military industrial complex exists and has influence over legislators.  There are many lobbyists in Washington and working in the area of defense can be lucrative.  However, people take things to the extreme with conspiracy theories.  The government is not facing a military coup and there is no chance of a tea party take over.  I'm sorry, but that is pure fantasy.  Most people laugh at the tea party and they aren't as relevant as they once were.  They had big money behind them and lots of momentum in 2010, but no one really associates with them if they want to get elected in a moderate state or district.  Believe me, one of the greatest strategies for the democrats in 2012 was to tie their opponents to the tea party.  They aren't as popular or strong as people believe.  As for the IRS scandal, I have my thoughts on that, but will spare you a political diatribe.   All I will say is if people really believe the tea party qualifies as a social welfare group or a 501(c)(4) group, I disagree.  It is a way to avoid paying taxes as a political group by pretending that there purpose is something other than being political. 

You've obviously never been in the military if you think high-ranking officers will stage a coup. BTW, after these groups have done everything in their power to deny the LGBT community of human rights, take ow-cost food away from the poor, side with big banks in outrageous fees, deny voting rights to minorities, but I am supposed to be outraged that they were invesrigated for breaking the law?

Quote from: learningtolive on May 17, 2013, 02:14:13 PM
Who is General Petronius? 

Yes, the military industrial complex exists and has influence over legislators.  There are many lobbyists in Washington and working in the area of defense can be lucrative.  However, people take things to the extreme with conspiracy theories.  The government is not facing a military coup and there is no chance of a tea party take over.  I'm sorry, but that is pure fantasy.  Most people laugh at the tea party and they aren't as relevant as they once were.  They had big money behind them and lots of momentum in 2010, but no one really associates with them if they want to get elected in a moderate state or district.  Believe me, one of the greatest strategies for the democrats in 2012 was to tie their opponents to the tea party.  They aren't as popular or strong as people believe.  As for the IRS scandal, I have my thoughts on that, but will spare you a political diatribe.   All I will say is if people really believe the tea party qualifies as a social welfare group or a 501(c)(4) group, I disagree.  It is a way to avoid paying taxes as a political group by pretending that there purpose is something other than being political.

Media Matters For America (tax-exempt 501c group, highly political) would like a word.
The problem isn't that political groups are being heavily monitored. It's that ONLY RIGHT-WING political groups are being heavily monitored. That tea party fade you mentioned? Might have something to do with being nearly impossible to get tax-exempt status due to political views. No matter what side you fall on, that idea should be scary as heck.


Unrelated:
At this point, I think there are only three ways this can go for Obama: Either put absolutely everything out in the open - proof of innocence - resign to save face - or face a huge federal investigation into absolutely everything, Nixon style.

That said, I don't see Obama as the resigning type, and I personally doubt he'd be willing to lay everything out on the table, so Option C it is.

Nope. I am not feeling any sympathy for those groups.  And I am pacifist nothing to do with the military. I am just telling how they think. And what  may happen. Obama ended the war in Iraq. The Pentagon will not forgive it. So to save the U.S. democracy he  should resign.

resign

And I bet if the election were held today, Obama would win.

I think they should all resign, every god dang one of them in office right now and have a special elction. This goes for Dems and Repubs and let us, we the people make the rules.

I know it'll never happen but it is a nice thought.

FormerMTF, you are struggling with our language. May I ask where you are from and why US presidential politics interests you? Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: ZoeM on May 17, 2013, 02:31:30 PM
Media Matters For America (tax-exempt 501c group, highly political) would like a word.
The problem isn't that political groups are being heavily monitored. It's that ONLY RIGHT-WING political groups are being heavily monitored. That tea party fade you mentioned? Might have something to do with being nearly impossible to get tax-exempt status due to political views. No matter what side you fall on, that idea should be scary as heck.


Unrelated:
At this point, I think there are only three ways this can go for Obama: Either put absolutely everything out in the open - proof of innocence - resign to save face - or face a huge federal investigation into absolutely everything, Nixon style.

That said, I don't see Obama as the resigning type, and I personally doubt he'd be willing to lay everything out on the table, so Option C it is.

I will note that I agree that doing it exclusively on one side is wrong.  Nonetheless, most of the groups that pretend to be for the social welfare have overtly political purposes.  While it may be allowed legally, I find it to be pretty sketchy and distasteful that they get away with it.  That goes for both left and right. 

Obama will not resign.  They need to prove that he had any knowledge or influence in the managing of this scandal.  IRS employees are civil servants and are not tied into political manners.  It is unlikely Obama had much sway in how individual offices operated.  Still, there is nothing wrong with holding an investigation.

The tea party fade is not because of the IRS scandal.  People began to hate them once they became unwilling to compromise.  Remember the debt ceiling incident?  People really shifted gears when they saw how they operated within congress on multiple issues.  I have seen candidates who once loved the tea party and Grover Norquist who then all of a sudden became a strong moderate.  All in two years.  The tea part has faded because of their extreme stances, not because of the IRS.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 17, 2013, 02:49:11 PM
I think they should all resign, every god dang one of them in office right now and have a special elction. This goes for Dems and Repubs and let us, we the people make the rules.

I know it'll never happen but it is a nice thought.

Direct democracy is a lovely ideal, but would be fairly chaotic.  How would this country operate and how would decision making at all levels operate.  I am fine with a representative republic, but I wish we had a multiple party system and a parliamentary system. 

Quote from: formerMTF on May 17, 2013, 02:44:47 PM
Nope. I am not feeling any sympathy for those groups.  And I am pacifist nothing to do with the military. I am just telling how they think. And what  may happen. Obama ended the war in Iraq. The Pentagon will not forgive it. So to save the U.S. democray he  should resing. 

What evidence do you have that this is the work of the pentagon?  It seems to me that the IRS took actions that got them in trouble.  And the pentagon is not going to hold a military coup.  General Petraeus who you mentioned before was a staunch supporter of the Iraq War and implemented the surge in Iraq.  Also, he supported the surge in Afghanistan.  Yet, you referenced that they had something to do with him stepping down.  Honestly, I can't imagine they were against him because of  his military views.  If anything, he got caught given access to intel to his mistress.  That is what pissed people off.

Learningtolive, You mean it would be more chaotic than what it is now???

Yeah I know the consequences but wouldn't it be nice just to start kicking them out one by one until we had some in there atleast with a little common sense?

Quote from: Jess42 on May 17, 2013, 03:23:20 PM
Learningtolive, You mean it would be more chaotic than what it is now???

Yeah I know the consequences but wouldn't it be nice just to start kicking them out one by one until we had some in there atleast with a little common sense?

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Winston Churchill

The system has it flaws, but removing it in a revolution is bound to create more problems.  What happens to Social Security, the VA, medicare, Scientific Grants, Health Research, Educational investment, Infrastructure investment, etc...  All of these programs and spending are part of the system.  And these programs do society a great benefit whether one sees it or not.  Besides that, overthrowing the system destroys the bill or rights and all other protected freedoms within our laws. Once you destroy the system, you leave behind chaos. 

If you believe politicians are corrupt, there is a way to remedy this: get laws passed.  Get involved in politics (especially the primary process) and get people you want elected.  After this, lobby to pass laws that would reform the system.  I would love nothing more than campaign finance and ethics reforms to be on congress agenda. It's tough to get reforms through, but it is the best solution to get things to improve.  And if more Americans would actually be involved in their system besides voting one day every 4 years, they could get something done.  The truth is most Americans are apathetic towards the political system and in turn it has become apathetic to them.  Politicians listen to those with the loudest voices or the pockets to pay people to have loud voices.  It sucks, but it takes work and most are not willing to the system to fix itself.

While it is true that congress often fails at cleaning up, if you were to destroy the system, you have no law and order.  What do you think happens when the new regime forms.  Do you think the new leaders will respect your views?  No, likely you need to have laws and restrictions to prevent abuse.  That is a scenario I would like to avoid at all costs. 

Quote from: learningtolive on May 18, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." Winston Churchill

The system has it flaws, but removing it in a revolution is bound to create more problems.  What happens to Social Security, the VA, medicare, Scientific Grants, Health Research, Educational investment, Infrastructure investment, etc...  All of these programs and spending are part of the system.  And these programs do society a great benefit whether one sees it or not.  Besides that, overthrowing the system destroys the bill or rights and all other protected freedoms within our laws. Once you destroy the system, you leave behind chaos. 

If you believe politicians are corrupt, there is a way to remedy this: get laws passed.  Get involved in politics (especially the primary process) and get people you want elected.  After this, lobby to pass laws that would reform the system.  I would love nothing more than campaign finance and ethics reforms to be on congress agenda. It's tough to get reforms through, but it is the best solution to get things to improve.  And if more Americans would actually be involved in their system besides voting one day every 4 years, they could get something done.  The truth is most Americans are apathetic towards the political system and in turn it has become apathetic to them.  Politicians listen to those with the loudest voices or the pockets to pay people to have loud voices.  It sucks, but it takes work and most are not willing to the system to fix itself.

While it is true that congress often fails at cleaning up, if you were to destroy the system, you have no law and order.  What do you think happens when the new regime forms.  Do you think the new leaders will respect your views?  No, likely you need to have laws and restrictions to prevent abuse.  That is a scenario I would like to avoid at all costs.

Yeah, I know you make very good points. But about the social programs and things like that, they need to be run for what they are and not big slush funds for special interest groups or to secure votes for either party.

Power has a way to eat people up and deform morals and common sense. If we replaced every one of them, their predesessers would become mad with the same power. What we really need are term limits for all offices and all branches of government. It should be a service, not a career. Reasonable pay and say two term limit for president like now, for term limit for representatives, two term limit for senators. Let them experience the real world for a couple of years and then they can run again. It may open their eyes somewhat and ease the powerlust enough for them to actually think of the people instead of their specail interests.

Quote from: Jess42 on May 18, 2013, 08:38:38 AM
Yeah, I know you make very good points. But about the social programs and things like that, they need to be run for what they are and not big slush funds for special interest groups or to secure votes for either party.

Power has a way to eat people up and deform morals and common sense. If we replaced every one of them, their predesessers would become mad with the same power. What we really need are term limits for all offices and all branches of government. It should be a service, not a career. Reasonable pay and say two term limit for president like now, for term limit for representatives, two term limit for senators. Let them experience the real world for a couple of years and then they can run again. It may open their eyes somewhat and ease the powerlust enough for them to actually think of the people instead of their specail interests.

Term limits don't solve the problem. There are countless of congressmen and senators who leave their seat to pick up a lobbyist position.  They will simply go to their new position quickly and the revolving door will go by faster.  Still, the problem will remain.  Removing the people is not what matters as much as removing the ability to practice corrupt practices.  Campaign and lobbyist reform will do much more than having term limits.

I am not saying anything bad or good about the president I am just concerned about the possibility of a coup in case he keeps annoying the conservatives.  Even here are people who think a military coup is what the U.S. needs.

You seem to think that only conservatives join the military. I have news for you: it's poor, liberal democrats from big cities who have no other choice but to join the military that join up in overwhelming numbers. How many conservative member of congress ever even served? You golden boy Paul Ryan has never even held a real JOB. There is zero chance of a coup happening at present. Actually, it is less than zero.

Is this some kind of joke?

Quote from: formerMTF on May 18, 2013, 01:38:22 PM
I am not saying anything bad or good about the president I am just concerned about the possibility of a coup in case he keeps annoying the conservatives.  Even here are people who think a military coup is what the U.S. needs.

I understand what you are saying, but I strongly disagree.  I have given you reasons as to why it won't happen and how any detractors of the president have ways to throw him out without military takeover.  The people who think the U.S needs a military take over are seriously flawed in their thinking.  How many people would really enjoy living under a military junta?  People that are threatening to take over the country are like Ted Nugent saying he will be in jail.  They are all talk and are just voicing their frustrations.  No one is overthrowing the government.  If a group of militias rose up, they will learn what it's like to be treated like an enemy combatant. 

What real proof do you have of this occurring? Again, the IRS has nothing to do with the pentagon.  That really isn't any way to establish the fear of military take over.  What groups of people are rising up?  What territories have they taken over?  It doesn't exist.  What you see is pissed off conservatives complaining about the president.  This is par for the course in partisan American politics.  People usually bitch till no end when the party they dislike is in power.  If that's rebellion, you would think I had plans to take over the house of reps right now.  A real rebellion or insurgency looks very different then this.  This is the U.S, not Syria.  Could it happen? Sure.  Is it happening or likely to occur? No.