Quote from: Anna! on May 19, 2013, 01:29:30 PM
I'm sorry to hear you were rattled.  I'd love to hang out, but we live too far apart .

I know Anna. . Still, I'm hopeful maybe someday!

Quote from: learningtolive on May 19, 2013, 02:19:25 PM
Try to stay away from gaming to a degree.  It's fun and entertaining in small doses, but it keeps you in the house when you could be doing things outside and meeting new people. 

I agree.  I have the stuff to play pathfinder, so table top gaming with people.  Maybe I could get in a group for that? 

I'm sorry you're going through this Misato.. I'm in a similar position but admit do have some contact with people through my work and the occasional social contact.

But I have once gone 22 months without having a meaningful personal conversation with anyone. Not in person. Not by phone. Not even by e-mail.

I did have a close male friend who was a complete rarity - he was both straight and 'got it' when it came to friendship. Sadly he died a couple of months ago.

I think part of the problem is that so many people nowadays find it hard to relate to anyone else other than in purely utilitarian terms. This means that social contact has to have some kind of payoff, whether it's for material, social or sexual reasons. Others are too wrapped up in their work or families and find it hard to get away, even for an evening. 

A major reason why I took up photography is that it would bring me into contact with new people. I'm still persevering, but perhaps you can think of some sort of interest which brings you into contact with people?

That's all I can suggest.

Hi Misato and the others,
I have been following this thread since the first post and have found it so painful to read that I have hesitated all day about getting involved. Finally it is Stella's post which decided me and I hope I can get it right as the last thing I want to do is make anyone feel any worse or throw oïl on the fire.

I don't know enough about any of you individually to be able to say anything very personal but observing over the years, both myself and others, a few things have stood out for me.

Having always been more or less aware of our difference, most of us have spent a large part of our lives with the feeling that we are outsiders, that we don't belong. A natural reaction to this is to become more reclusive than average and I think a good illustration of this is number of IT specialists you find among the FtM community. Far less risk of encountering rejection from a computer than from our fellow human beings.

Next, transitioning can be so obsessive,( just look at the amount of time so many of us spend here...), that we become totally insufferable bores for everyone around us. To understand how damaging this can be to our relationships with others I suggest reading Steve Covey's book "The 7 habits..." in particular the bit about the emotional bank account : http://lifetrainingonline.com/blog/the-emotional-bank-account.htm

Next, and I know I'm sticking my neck out here, I think it is really foolish to underestimate how uncomfortable people can feel going out with someone whose appearance attracts a lot of more or less negative attention.  Among other things that is why I believe a RLE prior to HRT, and even FFS for those among us who started with a very masculine appearance, is  close to being insane. People generally like to be seen with people who make them look good. It takes a very strong relationship to survive the challenge that going out with someone who makes other people stare eg. a man in a dress, can represent.

If you accept the ideas above, you are left with choices along the following lines.

1.  Transitioning takes precedence over everything else and to hell with the rest of the world

or

2. My relationships and my place in society come first and I will do everthing in my power to insure that my transition does not create more isolation than the isolation that already comes with being part of a tiny minority of the population even if it means making compromises that hurt.

I know very well that it  can be a very difficult choice to make but, realistically, we really are faced with these sort of choices.

I have personally taken a very cautious approach to my transition yet in spite of all my precautions I once pushed forward a little too fast. The result was the loss of my job and at 55 years of age, I thought that was the end of the line. It was one of the  roughest experiences I have ever lived and the reason was not because I thought my own life was very seriously compromised, it was because I felt I had totally betrayed the confidence my wife had placed in me as we have gone through all of this. I was seriously suicidal for several weeks but survived thanks to her help and the help of my therapist.

Happily I did find another job immediately and that experience means I will be that much more careful before making such a move at work again.

For me life without others makes even less sense than life in the wrong gender/body. This has meant making some choices and I wouldn't for a second try to choose for another person. However, I hope this post will throw just a little more light on some of the issues behind those choices for the social beings that we are.

Warmest best wishes to all you fellow travellers.
Donna

Quote from: StellaB on May 19, 2013, 03:32:19 PM
I think part of the problem is that so many people nowadays find it hard to relate to anyone else other than in purely utilitarian terms. This means that social contact has to have some kind of payoff, whether it's for material, social or sexual reasons. Others are too wrapped up in their work or families and find it hard to get away, even for an evening. 

It certainly feels like this is the case.  I guess it's understandable too.  If I, say, had a youngin' I imagine I'd be pretty wrapped up in them too.  I bet I'd see other people then too at the kid's soccer games and the like.  Maybe that's the meetup I gotta find, 30's and no kids.

I feel blessed that just about everywhere I've gone since coming out I've felt accepted.  Even last night.  While creepy and shocking to me, those two guys were just trying to have a good time.  In the moment with my dipper I did want to take advantage of being offered cisgender privilege of a boy dancing with a girl.  Heck when we were done I tried a courtesy, despite not wearing a skirt at the time, in thanks.  It was just I could have used a girlfriend coming in to rescue me from the creeper or just being with someone to keep the creeper away in the first place.

Going in all worked up that something might go wrong and then everything happening... it was just too much too fast.

I should note that I see in my SO, her having the same socialization problems that I'm having.  All she does is work and the friends she does have are 7 to 10 years younger than her.

Quote from: Donna Elvira on May 19, 2013, 04:43:44 PM

1.  Transitioning takes precedence over everything else and to hell with the rest of the world

or

2. My relationships and my place in society come first and I will do everthing in my power to insure that my transition does not create more isolation than the isolation that already comes with being part of a tiny minority of the population even if it means making compromises that hurt.

I know very well that it  can be a very difficult choice to make but, realistically, we really are faced with these sort of choices.


For me life without others makes even less sense than life in the wrong gender/body. This has meant making some choices and I wouldn't for a second try to choose for another person. However, I hope this post will throw just a little more light on some of the issues behind those choices for the social beings that we are.

Warmest best wishes to all you fellow travellers.
Donna

Donna,
       Well spoken, your entire post is absolutely true and right on point, there are really just three choices, Number 1, number 2, or forget it entirely and move on with your life as usual!

After enjoying some ice cream I got to thinking.  Little has changed for me socially with my transition up to now.  Yeah, I interact with people a lot more but it hasn't been wholly different than what I did when I looked like a guy.  Last night, I had a very female centric experience.  It would have been nice to have some girlfriends there to sqeeeee with.  I bet that would have taken the edge right off and allowed me to squeeeeeee instead of freak out.

Thanks everyone.  I still feel a little rattled and I'm glad I have a therapy appointment tomorrow but I am glad ya'll and this place were here for me!

Quote from: Donna Elvira on May 19, 2013, 04:43:44 PM
Hi Misato and the others,
I have been following this thread since the first post and have found it so painful to read that I have hesitated all day about getting involved. Finally it is Stella's post which decided me and I hope I can get it right as the last thing I want to do is make anyone feel any worse or throw oïl on the fire.

I don't know enough about any of you individually to be able to say anything very personal but observing over the years, both myself and others, a few things have stood out for me.

Having always been more or less aware of our difference, most of us have spent a large part of our lives with the feeling that we are outsiders, that we don't belong. A natural reaction to this is to become more reclusive than average and I think a good illustration of this is number of IT specialists you find among the FtM community. Far less risk of encountering rejection from a computer than from our fellow human beings.

Next, transitioning can be so obsessive,( just look at the amount of time so many of us spend here...), that we become totally insufferable bores for everyone around us. To understand how damaging this can be to our relationships with others I suggest reading Steve Covey's book "The 7 habits..." in particular the bit about the emotional bank account : http://lifetrainingonline.com/blog/the-emotional-bank-account.htm

Next, and I know I'm sticking my neck out here, I think it is really foolish to underestimate how uncomfortable people can feel going out with someone whose appearance attracts a lot of more or less negative attention.  Among other things that is why I believe a RLE prior to HRT, and even FFS for those among us who started with a very masculine appearance, is  close to being insane. People generally like to be seen with people who make them look good. It takes a very strong relationship to survive the challenge that going out with someone who makes other people stare eg. a man in a dress, can represent.

If you accept the ideas above, you are left with choices along the following lines.

1.  Transitioning takes precedence over everything else and to hell with the rest of the world

or

2. My relationships and my place in society come first and I will do everthing in my power to insure that my transition does not create more isolation than the isolation that already comes with being part of a tiny minority of the population even if it means making compromises that hurt.

I know very well that it  can be a very difficult choice to make but, realistically, we really are faced with these sort of choices.

I have personally taken a very cautious approach to my transition yet in spite of all my precautions I once pushed forward a little too fast. The result was the loss of my job and at 55 years of age, I thought that was the end of the line. It was one of the  roughest experiences I have ever lived and the reason was not because I thought my own life was very seriously compromised, it was because I felt I had totally betrayed the confidence my wife had placed in me as we have gone through all of this. I was seriously suicidal for several weeks but survived thanks to her help and the help of my therapist.

Happily I did find another job immediately and that experience means I will be that much more careful before making such a move at work again.

For me life without others makes even less sense than life in the wrong gender/body. This has meant making some choices and I wouldn't for a second try to choose for another person. However, I hope this post will throw just a little more light on some of the issues behind those choices for the social beings that we are.

Warmest best wishes to all you fellow travellers.
Donna

Very good post Donna.

It is true that many of us tend to isolate ourselves because of our condition.  I can say a great deal of my childhood was spent doing such a thing.  Oddly enough, I have always believed transitioning would make things easier in social situations.  I've always desired to interact with others as female and not have to worry about acting like a man.  Just be myself and have fun.  Be like any other girl in her early twenties.  Yet, on the other hand, transitioning can be isolating and further remove you from social interaction.  It's a double edge sword.  But I think that all I can hope is that I'll one day be able to live as any other girl and live a happy life.  I have many accomplishments and connections that may be thrown away once I'm out, but it's not worth having if I can't be happy.  We should live and enjoy lives as ourselves, not as an unhappy robot.  Still, there are sacrifices to be made and it will never be an easy path.

Quote from: learningtolive on May 20, 2013, 12:01:16 AM
Very good post Donna.

It is true that many of us tend to isolate ourselves because of our condition.  I can say a great deal of my childhood was spent doing such a thing.  Oddly enough, I have always believed transitioning would make things easier in social situations.  I've always desired to interact with others as female and not have to worry about acting like a man.  Just be myself and have fun.  Be like any other girl in her early twenties.  Yet, on the other hand, transitioning can be isolating and further remove you from social interaction.  It's a double edge sword.  But I think that all I can hope is that I'll one day be able to live as any other girl and live a happy life.  I have many accomplishments and connections that may be thrown away once I'm out, but it's not worth having if I can't be happy.  We should live and enjoy lives as ourselves, not as an unhappy robot.  Still, there are sacrifices to be made and it will never be an easy path.

Hi there "Learningtolive" (Maybe a real name some day?)
In reaction to your post, self acceptance, the first major step in transitioning, should already help in social situations as love of others starts with love of yourself.  From that point of view, I can affirm quite explicitly that by recognizing my own needs I have become more aware and sensitive to the needs of those around me.  Even my kids tell me this.

Afterwards, the transition period itself is pretty complicated to manage, especially for older people like me who were already massively interconnected with others as a male. So many people to come out to and to get on board. For someone younger, like you, it should in theory be considerably less so. However, in all cases I think it consumes a huge amount of energy which is not available for other things whether that be work or managing our relationships with those around us. For example, I have spent my last two annual vacations doing surgery (FFS) which means that my wife had no real vacation either. I do actively try to make it up to her in other ways and this year we have planned a really nice vacation but I would have to say that I have been blessed with an exceptionally  supportive and patient life partner.   

I don't know if we can ever hope to live " as any other girl", all depends on what you read into that,  but I certainly believe we can can succeed in living successful lives socially as women, including finding and keeping life-partners. Like in any other relationship, sensitivity to the other person's needs as well as own own ie.  ""seeking first to understand then to be understood" is a key element of this and my own experience brings me to believe that this is particularly difficult during the actual transition period when so much of our energy is turned inwards.

From all of your posts, you are a visibly a very thoughtful person and I am sure you will find a way to get it right at the end of the day. By the way, while I am at it, I am also sure that you mother and sisters must be aware that there is a lot going on in your mind right now.  Don't you think it is finally time to put everyone out of their misery? 
Take care.
Donna