than from males?? I feel it a lot from the women at work especially, ive been starting to use the unisex bathrooms now because someone complained that they didn't feel "comfortable" with me using the women's restroom- and when i did use them the women in there usually give me the ugliest stares like i don't belong there. I remember hearing one of my co workers telling my other co worker that I look silly wearing women's clothes because i don't look female, they see me as just a man in a dress. Sadly it isn't just at work that i have encountered people like this, women at stores, the gym and just in general look at me like in disgust and the worse comes from my family. Not too long ago my aunt told me "what can you teach us real women about being women"? that comment hurt very much but unfortunately I do not have the means to leave this crap hole small town in Tennessee. I have some support but unfortunately i have more haters than anything else. I guess the transphobia from women hurts me the most as they don't accept me as one of them.., I know i should not seek validation from others but here it seems like they are trying to make sure I know that they don't see me as a female, a while back i had some female cousins gang up on me when i was explaining to them that I was a woman just like them and of course they brought up all the biological stuff about how my DNA and all that says otherwise -_- anyway i just need to vent as I dont really have anyone to talk about this with, im pretty alone as far as im concerned

It's like you're knocking on a door screaming, "LET ME COME HOME!" and the other women are pushing back on the door from the inside resisting you.  Does that make any sense at all?

Hard to know what to say.  All I can think of to offer is, when I get into this I do focus more on the knowledge I have in my head about my gender identity.  DNA, chemical washes in the womb... etc... those are things other people can easily claim to know something about or refute.  What you feel, what made you transition in order to find happiness, that's all you.  Sure they can question it, but their footing can't help but be weak.

Hang in there.

At some point in my transition I stopped caring what people think. I'm lucky to live in a big west coast city which I so diverse, you can't get by being a hater. My advice is to try to get out and move somewhere with people who are more open minded. You aren't going to change those people by yourself and your happiness is not worth the constant mental beating.

Dunno about you, but I'm used to men being hard-headed people who just state what the world is or should be in their head, so I've gotten used to it, and I view it more like a kid's repetitive bad behaviour: tiring but not shocking or so insulting anymore. On the other hand, I expect women to be civilized and polite; even want them to be, because I'm striving to be with them, and anyone wants to think their group or target group is good.

As for your specific problem... well, that's exactly why I've been waiting until this summer to go full-time, because I'd expected to pass by then. Well, I've been stalled on a low estrogen dose for a while, so it's not like I have breasts, but my hips have grown a little, and the antiandrogen, which is at a good dose, hasn't been without effect, so now, as long as I'm wearing something that hides the absence of breasts or a proper figure (coat, sweater), I mostly pass.

I admire your courage; there's nothing else I can tell you. If I were in your shoes I'd never have found the courage to go full-time.

I'd echo the Maid's comments (one of our wisest and most esteemed members!) and try to move out of that state as soon as you can. In my experience women are far more accepting but men can be just as accepting. Unfortunately, trans women who pass flawlessly generally have an easier time entering women's spaces as people tend to go by what they see and if you look very female, women tend to think you are a female. The old if it walks, looks, acts talks cliche. But this isn't always the case and of course maturity plays a big factor. Perhaps just tell people you have an intersex condition and that you actually are a woman genetically and tell them to look it up. I don't generally condone lying but there's a time and place for it, and this is the time.

I've seen some of your pics though in your old posts and you look very very female to me. Unless they weren't you or something. It really sucks yo are being treated this way. I'd save every dime you can and move. Perhaps go to college in another state and take out loans to do it. Not every place is like that and women are very accepting. I still would prefer living on the West Coast though cause I'm a really nice person and everyone there is so nice that i can't help but want to be a part of it.

It breaks my heart when this happens to any of my trans sisters. *hugs*

My suggestion is to think about some snazzy comebacks...like when your aunt asked, "what can you teach us..." you could reply, "Do adult women normally teach other adult women about womanhood? What makes you think you could teach me anything about it? (or how to be a lady?)

Don't be crude, just turn the comnent back on them. (unless it was said without malice, just because they don't know any better)

I've been lucky, haven't had anyone say anything to my face yet...probably because I'm"built like a linebacker" LOL...oh, I guess people have said things to me...

Oh well, they can kiss my ass ..

 I'm sorry that you've been through all that. It's not my style to make comebacks, or forget to care about what people think... I can't really do those things. I'm better at just accepting that pain, because I can enjoy it in a twisted sort of way. I don't seek it out, however. I just act like I never heard what they said, and if they demand a response... I say the most honest thing I can. Sometimes this response is hurtful and cold; at that point, I don't care if they get hurt or not.

You're right though. Transphobia from other women is horrible... I'm thankful that women just avoid me, mostly, and that I avoid them. I admit, though, that this is [also] due to things other than being trans.

Been to Tennessee and I can assure you that no-one there is well versed concerning transgender issues. Those women are obviously intimidated and upset thinking that there is a man who has entered their domain, is on their turf and wearing their stuff. There is also the fact that they have known you prior to beginning your transition and that familiarity does breed contempt. Your only recourse is to relocate to a more liberal coastal (blue) state and find some new friends in the TG community, maybe join a support group. Perhaps you need some input from someone more fashion savvy who can give you some helpful pointers about your presentation. These will be positive moves, if you don't take the initiative then nothing will change.

Quote from: Elsa.G on May 22, 2013, 10:57:11 PM
a while back i had some female cousins gang up on me when i was explaining to them that I was a woman just like them and of course they brought up all the biological stuff about how my DNA and all that says otherwise

This. This might be where you've gone wrong.

We know that female is female, and it doesn't matter whether you're a natural born female or a trans woman because gender isn't sex, and a woman isn't defined by her vagina and breasts but by what is in her mind and her genes.

But this isn't how most of the cisgendered see it. To many of them sex and gender are one of the same thing and unless you were born with a vagina there's no way possible that you can be female.

It's an extremely narrow view of gender and bears very little in relation to the reality of medical science or biology but it's usually pointless trying to explain because the mind is firmly closed and they are right.

Please try for a minute to stand in their shoes and look at this through their eyes. They were born girls, they were raised as girls and brought up to be women and it's a lengthy process of socialization and conditioning.

From their perspective all you've done is made yourself look like a woman, take hormones, and do all the usual stuff of transitioning and yet you're claiming to be equal to them. This is what they find unacceptable.

This is why I keep saying that it doesn't matter how passable you are, it doesn't matter whether or not you can live in stealth or not, because the key to gaining acceptance from the cisgendered lies almost entirely in your ability to integrate yourself into their world.

On Kuan Yin's 'Empathy' thread I made the point that many people don't have empathy. This is precisely a shining example of why I hold that view. I suspect that none of these women have ever had their femininity or gender identity challenged or called into question so they don't see it. But my point is that because they don't have any empathy, they're not making any effort to see it either.

It's a sad fact that being trans in today's society puts you in a position where you have to pick and choose your battles. Sometimes when you're coming out to people you have to make concessions and quite often one of the concessions you have to make is that you have to play up the bit about being trans to highlight the difference between you and the cisgendered.

If you're claiming to be a woman just like them then you're giving them quite a lot of ammunition to use against you if they choose not to accept you. But if you come across as a trans woman who's every bit as female as they are but without the rites of passage and but for a few inches of flesh here and there then there's not much they can say to argue against you.

The payoff of course is being accepted as female by other women.

Please don't think by what I've posted here that I'm suggesting that you're the one with the problem. You're not. They're the ones with the problem, pretty much the same as anyone who cannot accept someone just because they're trans. It's their issue and it's something you should never feel responsible for.

I mean, are they so insecure in their own gender identity that they feel threatened by a trans woman? Bless their hearts (and yes I do mean that in the exact same way as is said in the South). What is it to them just to accept you for who you are and as a female just like them? I mean, it's not going to cost them any money is it?

In your shoes I would probably look at leaving and starting all over again somewhere where people are a bit more open-minded but if you can't do that then you're going to have to stick to your guns and keep repeating to yourself over and over again that it's them that have the issue, not you.

One thing I might add to Stella's excellent comments is the fact that there are occasionally women born with female anatomy (CAIS) who have XY chromosomes and have been runway models, so DNA isn't always a qualifying factor either.

To answer the question in the thread topic:

For me, my transition is more about being accepted by females than anything else. My entire life has been a dance of frustration as I'm drawn to females because my transgender tells me I'm "like them" but they keep their distance because my male presentation tells them the opposite.

Not being accepted by females is a major component of my dysphoria.

As for advice:

1. Most people can be educated.
2. The best way to educate people is one person at a time.

Pick one or two people. Get to know them personally. Try to find ways to explain to them about transgender. Concentrate on only a few simple statements. Repeat them frequently (it's easier to get someone to think about something if they hear it more often.) For example:

* Some people's brains are wired to expect their bodies to be a different sex than they are.
* Regardless of the differences in your experiences, it hurts just as much for a transgender woman to be rejected by other women.
* You would no more be comfortable dressing as a man or using the men's restroom as they would.

It will be harder to reject you one-on-one and easier for you to help them see what it's like for you.

Elsa, what you're doing is hard. Give yourself credit for bearing up under difficult circumstances.

I have always desired to be accepted as one of the girls.  That desire is something most of us probably feel.  So, it is understandable why rejection from women is harder than when it comes from men. 

My suggestion to you is to seriously considering making a move.  Please, join us on the coast!  Both the East and West coast are more open and understanding towards the lgbt community.  Yes, there are still problems, and you have to choose the right town.  But I can guarantee you it will be much easier than living in the midwest.

If it helps:

Remember that by being true to yourself, you are paving the way for future generations of trans people.

Every social change starts with individuals who dare to challenge peoples' beliefs.

Another thing to keep in mind is that to these people, you are probably the face of ->-bleeped-<- -- the only trans person they know. So exercise extreme friendliness. Crank that smile up to 11.

(Also maybe bake these folks some dish-dang  cookies. Ain't nobody gonna say poo to someone who bakes for them. Edit: If they still do, they are *MONSTERS*, and you can psychologically write them off as such.)

Edited for profanity.

^ LMAO... folks and dish-dang? Couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 23, 2013, 11:45:50 AM
@Stella I don't totally understand, why would women not accept you if you are stealth? The whole point is they don't know that you are any different. I have never had that problem because I AM stealth to everyone in my day to day life.

Well if you're stealth you're not out to anyone as trans, are you? You're accepted as female. But stealth doesn't equate to the upbringing, rites of passage and all the conditioning that cisgendered women go through as part of their lives. You still have to compensate for all that yourself.

QuoteAnd not every cis person is "one of them" and will subtly treat you as a freak. 9/10 of the people that know about my transition, a lot of them women, don't treat me any different than another girl. It's a type of personality, not cis or trans.

Now I'm the one who's confused. Above you claim that you are stealth to everyone in your day to day life, and now you're talking about the people who know about your transition?

Also for much of that post I was relating stuff that cisgendered people tell me. I'm also accepted and not treated any differently by cisgendered people even though I don't hide the fact that I'm trans.

You can integrate either through stealth or through being out because it boils down to the exact same process - integration. But when you're out the starting point is usually always someone's existing levels of awareness and while you can tell them and inform them and educate them, the choice whether to learn and increase their awareness or not lies with them.

QuotePart of the problem is that, for whatever reason, most trans women are more stereotypically masculine than most cis women, who don't like that contrast and are probably too insecure to handle it.

Another part of the problem are the preconceived notions and generalizations people make about gender based on stereotypes in spite of Nature favouring diversity.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 23, 2013, 01:59:38 PM
Well it sounds like you have more of a problem with (also stereotyped) female culture than trans acceptance.

What makes you think that *I* have a problem with female culture?

Feel free to use the Personal Message feature of the site, ladies. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 24, 2013, 06:47:46 AM
Umm. It's okay. I don't think I even know what we are talking about lol. I don't really ever out myself to new people.

It's okay.. I was just kind of curious. But then what about?

And anyway, who says you have to? Stealth is part of nature, just ask any crocodile.

Quote from: StellaB on May 23, 2013, 12:35:51 PM


Another part of the problem are the preconceived notions and generalizations people make about gender based on stereotypes in spite of Nature favouring diversity.

Kia Ora Stella,

That's true, after all "There are no straight lines in nature !"

Metta Zenda