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Can green power unite us and solve our problems?

Started by LostInTime, June 09, 2007, 10:29:11 AM

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LostInTime

'Green power' could help solve many problems
By SAUL ELBEIN
Jerusalem Post

While Friedman believes that a mass movement can bring about a green revolution in America, professor and fellow panelist Avner De-Shalit was more cautious. Change would be difficult, he argued, because while Americans know an impressive amount about the environment - what he called "environmental literacy" - they fail to integrate that knowledge into their daily lives. He also suggested that even if they did so, it might not matter.

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KarenLyn

Quote from: LostInTime on June 09, 2007, 10:29:11 AM
'Green power' could help solve many problems
By SAUL ELBEIN
Jerusalem Post

While Friedman believes that a mass movement can bring about a green revolution in America, professor and fellow panelist Avner De-Shalit was more cautious. Change would be difficult, he argued, because while Americans know an impressive amount about the environment - what he called "environmental literacy" - they fail to integrate that knowledge into their daily lives. He also suggested that even if they did so, it might not matter.



Attitudes like De-Shalit's are the biggest problem. Without actually saying it, he is telling us not to bother. I think we should look at it from the perspective that there is nothing to be gained by not trying.

My 2ยข worth,


Karen Lyn
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The Middle Way

Well it may solve the problems it specifically hopes to address.

No single <thing> can 'unite us', I don't think. Unity means Oneness, and as long as we insist that we are *not* One, that's what's the deal we're dealing in.
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cindianna_jones

Yes change is difficult.  It is also inevitable.  Sooner or later we'll have to get on this band wagon.  It is going to kill our economy if we HAVE to do it all at once.  Better to start now.  Push it hard.  Let's get moving.

Cindi
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NatalieC

It seems as if big business is going to have to deal with this problem. Its affordable for them to fix the environment at the moment. It wont be in 10-20 years from now. I cant see how a mass movement will make any difference. The problem is imbedded into our daily lives on a scale that is incomprehensible to the average person. Change will be forced upon us and many will suffer. It doesnt have to be this way but hey the 0.01% of the worlds population who own everything control this world! Not us..
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LostInTime

I disagree. Business means money and if enough people start pushing, things will change. I remember watching the smog reports for LA and even my home state when I was very young. Nothing worse than being caught outside during the peak of smog  back in the late 70s. Days that recess had to be held inside. Blah.

People spoke out, government took action, and a number of businesses saw that things were changing and that they had to change with them. As technologies evolve things become more efficient and the price goes down or is greatly reduced when stacked up against current revenues.

The problem lies with education. How many recycle their alkaline batteries? Their CFL bulbs? Old computer equipment? Even with the big push for recycling many still have the "chuck it and be rid of it" attitude.

Make a difference by setting up a box where coworkers can dump off old batteries. Put a list on there why it should be done. Post about CFLs needing to be recycled on the bulletin boards at work, public businesses, and libraries.

With this subject every little bit does help because it means that we are leaving the world just a bit cleaner for the next generation and teaching them the value of doing so.
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Lori

America may green up but there is no way you will convince India and China to be green. China is now the biggest polluter and they are building coal fired power plants every week. Also, they demand more oil than ever and as their economies grow, they will soon be consuming most of the world's recourses I don't think they really care what they do to the environment.
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cindianna_jones

It's time for clean energy.  We need to invest in sodium cooled fast neutron reactor technology.  That would put us light years beyond where we are now and at the same time, would clean up these stockpiles of nuclear waste we are trying to hide.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NuclearFastReactorsSA1205.pdf

Let's sell the technology to Iran and Korea.  They can't make bombs with these things... only clean electricity.

Cindi
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LostInTime

We tried and Iran turned it down. Read the foreign press with Iran. iran is calling for the destruction of the West (UK and the US) and also Israel via nuclear bombs.

China is now the leader in clean coal technology. Companies such as Shell have been helping them build more environmentally friendly processing plants. India has upped their nuclear power capability and expects to do so again in the near future. Both countries are going through industrial growing pains, much like the way we did many decades ago.
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Aeyra

Wind and solar are good ways of 'greening up' but they won't work for autos. Hydrogen cars aren't viable because of technological constraints; hydrogen eats away at metal so you'd have to have something else to contain the fuel, and this would mean a very big fuel tank given that hydrogen takes up more volume than petrol. Also, hydrogen is explosive. A car crash in this case could explode and cause a chain reaction in other hydrogen cars that could take out a city block. Biofuels aren't going to work either not only because they economically aren't workable but because they aren't as effecient as petroleum. You need to burn 10 - 20% more ethanol in order to match petrol's power. Also, you'd be devoting a lot of farmland to grow corn or whatever to make ethanol, and ethanol still pollutes the air, but not as much. If you wanted ethanol to power your cities, it likely won't be viable since you'd need to use most of the farmland in the USA just to grow crops to power the cities let alone make fuel for your cars (and how would you eat, unless we import all of our food from China/India).

As for coal power, coal power plants can be built to be more cleaner and efficient than before. In reality, the largest producer of pollution in the USA is our military and our cars, not electrical generation. Industry pollutes quite a bit but not as much as in the past. You can make synthetic gasoline and jet fuel from coal (Nazis did this in WW2) and you might be able to buy some time but you're stuck with the problem of high pollution and smog. We have around 200 - 300 years of coal supply left in the USA at current consumption levels; if we start making fuel from coal we maybe have 100 years left at the most given what we need to keep the cars driving. Natural gas is going to run out even sooner than oil, and natural gas cars require a large amount of energy investment for a return that won't be even close to what you invest in it. Also, I can't see us burning wood or whiskey or anything else in our cars since you run into a deforestation problem and we don't have enough booze for everyone even in this country.  :P

The only power sources I can think of that could save the USA would be nuclear and fusion power. Fusion power theoretically is basically unlimited power but is still an experimental technology. Fissile material supplies (U238 and thorium) are at 70 years at current consumption levels worldwide. There is a way to extract uranium and thorium from seawater (some form of electrolysis used here) that could produce several MILLION years of fissile material supply but economically it won't be feasible unless U238 goes to more than $600-700 per oz. YOu can use nuclear power to power the cities and also to help develop fusion power (this is what powers the sun, BTW). As for cars, you can still have them, but they will likely be much smaller than today's cars. Cars over 2000 lbs (900 kg) won't be viable in the future, and if you are in the market for a car today, consider getting something below 3000 lbs (1300 kg) as your SUVs and Hummer and such won't be useful in a decade.

That's what I think anyways.
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RebeccaFog


It could unite us to an extent and it can solve many problems. not all problems.

   One of the things that nobody talks about is the influence it will have on future corporate people. They will be educated on the topic, or at least made aware.
   Some of our future scientists will be the children getting influenced by the topic at this time.  I've seen the occasional TV show that spotlights some incredible innovation made by a teenager.  Hopefully, the innovations will keep coming.
   Also, there is a profit to be made in being green. Jobs won't disappear like we're told all of the time by unimaginative fools because you will need people to care for the power grid, to handle the lines, to repair and troubleshoot the wireless technology, and to maintain the equipment used in businesses and homes.
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Sarah Louise

Unfortunately alternate power sources tend to be expensive.  I looked at putting one of those windmills that create electrical energy on my property, but then found the cost of them and realized it would take 30 years or more to "break even" with the cost.

I can look out my living room window and see about 5 of them in the near distance though.

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Aeyra

There's already plenty of cars that can get more than 40mpg. Problem is, they're Geo Metros and Ford Aspires and those kinds of cars. I can't see why we can't do like what we did in the 80s and simply just build smaller cars. In Sioux Falls here a good chunk of people drive around in SUVs and duallys and other house sized vehicles. The market for small cars here is a joke, and what they do have for sale is so ungodly high that you're better off going to the big cities for a deal.
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LostInTime

Not everyone can do with a small car. I could have purchased one of those Scion things but 1) did not like them and 2) needed the extra room that my hatchback offers. Sure the gas savings would be nice but I could not sacrifice the room for it.

This Mercedes will have a lot of power and be good on mileage. A lot better for those who want some VRoooom Vrooom in their vehicles. If you replace even a few percentage points of higher pollution cars, it is worth it. change will not happen overnight.
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cindianna_jones

Quote from: LostInTime on June 25, 2007, 11:21:16 AM
We tried and Iran turned it down. Read the foreign press with Iran. iran is calling for the destruction of the West (UK and the US) and also Israel via nuclear bombs.

China is now the leader in clean coal technology. Companies such as Shell have been helping them build more environmentally friendly processing plants. India has upped their nuclear power capability and expects to do so again in the near future. Both countries are going through industrial growing pains, much like the way we did many decades ago.


No we haven't tried this technology with Iran.  In fact we aren't even doing it ourselves.  This is not some sci fi dream.  This is technology that can provide us with ALL the energy we need for 200 plus years by burning the nuclear waste we already have and don't know what to do with.  The reference points to an article published in Scientific American in 2005.  So why isn't this on everyone's lips?  I checked with Nader's group and they are against it because it is "nuclear energy".  They can't step up to the fact that it produces no long term radiation waste and neither can it make weapons grade materials.

Could that be why no one will step up to the plate?  We as a country still want to build our own weapons of mass destruction? Could it be that we want all this turmoil over energy as a power play?  Could it be that we really don't want a solution?

Here's the URL again for reference. 

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NuclearFastReactorsSA1205.pdf

It isn't all that hard to read.  Please read it.  This represents a technology we can sell.  The Russians are already working on them to burn their nuclear waste.  It won't be long until they have come to the point where they'll sell the technology and we'll be left in the dust.

From what I can see, this technolgoy could be the cleanest energy we can contemplate to produce.

Cindi

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LostInTime

Cool link, thanks.

I know we offered to build one type that would not allow them to build nuclear weapons out of, will have to go dig through the articles I posted elsewhere.

Solar power improvement!

From 40.7 to 42.8 % Solar Cell Efficiency
Using a novel technology that adds multiple innovations to a very high-performance crystalline silicon solar cell platform, a consortium led by the University of Delaware (UD) has achieved a record-breaking combined solar cell efficiency of 42.8 percent. The current record of 40.7 percent was attained in December 2006 by Boeing's Spectrolab, Inc.

Posted on: July 30, 2007, 09:25:25


SeekingAlpha.com: Oil Majors Quietly Investing In Renewable Fuel Sector
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lisagurl

Can we solve the problem under the present conditions , NO.

We can slow things down, Yes. The main problem is, for everyone to live in harmony with the earth, there is only enough renewable resources for about 2 billion people. At that population many would have small farms with more physical labor but a clean healthy environment.

Not all green power is helpful. Most have drawbacks and problems not disclosed by the press. Solar equipment takes a lot of energy to make and maintain. Life of much equipment is only 20 years. Many times the energy to make and maintain solar equipment is equal or more than that provided by the technology over 20 years. Passive design is more promising but people will have to accept a wider comfort zone than they are used to.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: lisagurl on October 31, 2007, 11:18:41 AM
Can we solve the problem under the present conditions , NO.

We can slow things down, Yes. The main problem is, for everyone to live in harmony with the earth, there is only enough renewable resources for about 2 billion people. At that population many would have small farms with more physical labor but a clean healthy environment.

Not all green power is helpful. Most have drawbacks and problems not disclosed by the press. Solar equipment takes a lot of energy to make and maintain. Life of much equipment is only 20 years. Many times the energy to make and maintain solar equipment is equal or more than that provided by the technology over 20 years. Passive design is more promising but people will have to accept a wider comfort zone than they are used to.
On the plus side, people can be employed producing and maintaining the equipment.  Every few years, some innovations will come along to increase efficiency.   :)
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lisagurl

QuoteOn the plus side, people can be employed producing and maintaining the equipment.  Every few years, some innovations will come along to increase efficiency

Busy work that yields no progress is not going to save the earth. Efficiency is inverse expediently to effort and energy put in. The first unit of effort yields the most another equal effort will yield half as much. For years many of billions $ have gone into improving gas mileage. Mileage today is only slightly better than in the 1950's. In the 1970's it got worse due to air pollution and lead. We still have lead (China) in the environment as well as acid rain from the sulfur that replaced the lead.

R-30 insulation yields good energy savings from conducted heat, R-60 will gain you 6% more. The cost (in energy) is more than the savings.

There is much low hanging fruit  mostly the opportunities are the people that can not afford them.
You can help by going to a poor persons house and buying insulation and helping them make the house more efficient. A job like that would save much more than keeping people busy with solar cells.
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