Quote from: AlexanderC on June 03, 2013, 06:04:08 PM
I don't want one of those to be people noticing my scars in public and saying things, because once one person says something I'm going to be forever paranoid that everyone who stares, even if they're just curious because people can't always help looking at big scars, knows my past.  And if those scars are publicly broadcast around the place the whole time then it might become a big problem.

That is my greatest worry and it makes me paranoid. I sincerely doubt that I will ever go shirtless in public after top surgery unless it's in an almost isolated area. I don't think I'd ever be comfortable topless at a public pool or crowded beach unless I can get my scars hidden under my pecs or to fade with scar strips. It's not the scars themselves. I have 12 inch scars on both of my sides from kidney surgery. People could look at those and I don't care. They don't identify me as trans.

These kids on various sites (especially YouTube) who are parading their scars while rolling around almost nude on a bed, in a music video they created, or while being filmed while in a parade are doing more disservice to the trans community then they are helping. I think it's fine if you want to show your scars or fresh incision as a way to help other guys understand what a surgeon is capable of or even just to be proud of who you are becoming. The ones who are making a spectacle of themselves are the problem and I don't even think they understand what they're doing. Then again maybe they do and they don't care how what they're doing could have an effect on others.

The trans spectacles are not the people advancing our community. The guys advancing our communities are the guys like Skylar Kergil and Ryan Sallans who spend their time writing books and giving lectures at colleges. Those are the guys who deserve acknowledgement from the community and praise for their work towards fostering a level ground between us and the cis world. 

Well, we can't pick and choose how other people behave in the public eye. Perhaps this parading of scars has its positive side. Normalization, for one thing. I honestly don't know. I think it's probably better to have lots of young trans guys out there making home videos than not. Regardless, we have to live with whatever is out there.

I am by nature a pretty private person. I think that some of this comes from having to hide for so many years, especially during my childhood and youth. The current generation is quite different because of all the tech options. In fact, I'm quite different because of technology. Susan's Place, for example, has given me the opportunity to talk about things I never used to talk about. I still keep a lot to myself when I come here, but I open up a lot more than I would without the Internet. So I don't know what it is like to actually grow up with all of this tech stuff. Showing off surgery scars seems pretty tame compared to other things I've seen.

Quote from: AlexanderC on June 03, 2013, 06:04:08 PM
Y'know, some of this thread is starting to sound a little stealth shamey.

In short, there are both pros and cons to being out, and to being stealth.  Without some people being out then there's much less of a chance of trans people understanding that being trans is a thing, but there's the problem that some people could end up being outed due to other trans people being out.  Of course that's always going to be a problem, but it could be lesser if the layperson doesn't know our tell-tale scars, etc.

Don't know how this thread is "stealth shamey". I think people recognize that there are advantages both ways. That's what I'm reading anyway. I have read pretty much a respectful conversation, maybe a few less respectful comments.

Not everyone out will help things out. It's pretty certain that they won't. In fact, there are people who do the opposite. Look at gay rights. There are "out" gays who just party and act up pretty much. I don't think we are 300 years away from changing attitudes but I think we might be something like 25 years behind gays right now.



--Jay

Quote from: spacerace on June 03, 2013, 02:45:29 PM
So...if it makes the world better for other trans people, you still don't want it because you're done with transition and successfully stealth?  I'm not judging you or criticizing you for this opinion at all - to each their own for real. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

Trans activism does so much for every trans person, and personally, I'd rather see the whole ordeal of transition improved for every trans person in the present and the future.  Personally, the benefits of trans activism far outweigh things like the chance someone, somehow, somewhere may notice scars that mean a person might maybe be a transsexual randomly.

Not sure how this changes anything...If a stealth man is just that a man who does not identify with the "community" how does it interfere with what the out transmen does.
Really it should be a equal human right all fight for mankind. There are politicians, parents, friends, and partners, who fight for those rights just as much as the flag toting trans brother. Not saying the efforts aren't appreciated but don't feel like its only the trans proud putting there neck on the line its not.

Also saying I'm not judging you or criticizing does not approve the borderline criticizing/judgmental remarks, not singling out you everyone who keeps starting with that lol. Don't take it harsh I'm just saying we are all grown men here just state your opinion and be real, remember we all are entitled to that. Just dont start bashing on a post about bashing.

Someone else said something similar, but there are closet or low key gay men who play football, who hang with heterosexual males seamlessly for safety and the desire for equality and normality, men who don't talk with a lisp, switch, snap, or attend prides, Some of these men do not go all active captain sign this petition, but support the cause as a equal human beings. Just because you don't get active and speak out does not make you a bad person nor does it say stealth you can't make a difference.
There are some stealth men who do not agree with flamboyant lifestyle of gay men. I have stealth friends who hate being around my flamboyant friends. There opinion they are entitled to.
I'm (going) stealth for me not because I hate the rights that have rightfully been given by supportive folks not just trans folks. Not saying trans activism is not important but one its not for me and how I identify, and two don't be so full of it to the point you believe only trans people have made the difference. A straight cis man can be just as informative on the issue as well as a doctor who can post his work on websites or forums. We all don't have a job to do as citizens or some crap, its not neighborhood watch.

Quote from: spacerace on June 03, 2013, 02:45:29 PM
So...if it makes the world better for other trans people, you still don't want it because you're done with transition and successfully stealth?  I'm not judging you or criticizing you for this opinion at all - to each their own for real. I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

Trans activism does so much for every trans person, and personally, I'd rather see the whole ordeal of transition improved for every trans person in the present and the future.  Personally, the benefits of trans activism far outweigh things like the chance someone, somehow, somewhere may notice scars that mean a person might maybe be a transsexual randomly.

These benefits are enormous and I just don't see how the drawbacks outweigh any of them.
Things like:

-Expanded social awareness which can reduce the visceral reactions from people upon learning someone is trans.  Even for people that are stealth they generally have to tell family and previous friends - just knowing more about trans people going into it could make it so much better for others to deal with.

-Helping people realize they have options and things can 'get better'.  Out trans people on the Internet have been instrumental in helping trans people of all ages learn about surgery, etc.  You can say, "stealth trans people can provide information too"  Which yes, definitely, obviously.  But seeing someone willing to be comfortable with themselves in a public way can be really confidence building for some types of people.

Especially for things like coming out, showing off hormone changes - even anonymous people who appear openly on youtube videos are taking a risk under your thinking.  Imagine all the non-trans people that can see the telltale signs of trans surgeries after all the top surgery reveal videos they could randomly stumble across while browsing youtube.

-Increased access to affordable surgeries under expanded health care benefits.  The pressure on insurance companies and state health care systems from trans activism has no doubt helped more people get coverage.  I don't have coverage under insurance, so not me. But 20 years in the future? The groundwork is laid now. 

-Easier,  transparent procedures for legalities such as gender marker changes and name changes

All of the above would have made your transition easier, but now that you are finished the benefits are irrelevant  because of the minute chance your stealth status could be compromised by some unlikely connection someone makes?

Stealth people can stay stealth and be happy.  I'm not hating. "Flaunting your medical condition" is not for you, but people willing to do it are undeniably doing something that benefits every single trans person coming to terms with themselves and beginning to transition.

First of all, no. you are not understanding me correctly. I would love to know how you got "doesnt want others to be out" from me saying that i support being people out. I think i have said that about three times in this thread.

I also disagree with your wide sweeping statement that all out people are doing something "undeniably" good. This is a part of the "out and proud" attitude that i persoally find unnapealing. I support democracy which means you have the right to your political allegiances. but do i think that out and proud folks are some how these wariors of gender non comformity? absolutely not. They do what they want for whatever reasons and no matter how they justify it, I am free to disagree that it is beneficial. I think it is incredibly narrow minded to assume that "every single" trans person benefits from anything that one trans person / group does.

If you want to stick to the soldier analogy, i think our statement is alot like assuming that all US soldiers are doign something indeniably benefical for every american.  For the record, i say this as a guy who has served in the military (just to clear - not the US miliatary but an allied force)  I do not think that what ive done is 'undeniably' good for America. I did what i felt was best. That is what it comes down to in both situations. Our decisions are not the best for anyone or everyone. they are the best fo us. soometimes those decisions hurt people and sometimes they help. but to say that our actions help everyone? meh.

I really have not seem much stealth shaming. Perhaps I'm not spending enough time in the right places. I have seen far more shaming of people who are "out and proud", and people who have had bottom surgery than stealth shaming.

Personally I have no problems with people who want to go stealth and fully understand. Many people treat you different if they know you are trans, some stop respecting gender identity or treat us in misogynistic ways. For some it can be dangerous to be out. On the other hand I do also see the importance of trans people who are out and educating others about trans issues.

It seems some think out means you always talk about being trans, or go around flaunting it at all times. I cannot speak for others, but I am out, and I am not at all ashamed to be transgender. But I don't talk about it all the time. I mostly bring it up to correct people on gender pronouns. Of course, I have to be out, because I am unable to access necessary medical care for my transition where I live and can't afford to travel to have anything done. I think if I was passing I would be mostly stealth to people who don't need to know, because I'm a private persona and unless you are famous and rich being out can be dangerous. I would still be out in safe places to educate, however.

Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on June 04, 2013, 01:45:38 PM
I really have not seem much stealth shaming. Perhaps I'm not spending enough time in the right places. I have seen far more shaming of people who are "out and proud", and people who have had bottom surgery than stealth shaming.

Personally I have no problems with people who want to go stealth and fully understand. Many people treat you different if they know you are trans, some stop respecting gender identity or treat us in misogynistic ways. For some it can be dangerous to be out. On the other hand I do also see the importance of trans people who are out and educating others about trans issues.

It seems some think out means you always talk about being trans, or go around flaunting it at all times. I cannot speak for others, but I am out, and I am not at all ashamed to be transgender. But I don't talk about it all the time. I mostly bring it up to correct people on gender pronouns. Of course, I have to be out, because I am unable to access necessary medical care for my transition where I live and can't afford to travel to have anything done. I think if I was passing I would be mostly stealth to people who don't need to know, because I'm a private persona and unless you are famous and rich being out can be dangerous. I would still be out in safe places to educate, however.

I haven't seen it much either, but I have heard of it, and potentially think it is there. It's logical that where people are they are going to make arses of themselves.

But just because you are "out" doesn't mean you have a sign on you saying you are out and are out in 100% of situations. It is just exhausting and kind of weird. I am in out in the sense that I do not care if people know I am in trans and I am not ashamed of it, but I'm not in every situation saying "hey I'm Jay, I'm trans".

It could be dangerous in some areas. I think actually that being out might be more common in the east coast, west coast, and certain other areas (mountain SW), and some countries, where it is more acceptable to be different. There are dangers.
I use the men's room nearly 100% of the time. Not sure if I will use it in Las Vegas when I fly in and out. (If anybody has an opinion they can PM me.)


--Jay

Quote from: Dark.Knight on June 04, 2013, 11:57:52 AM
Also saying I'm not judging you or criticizing does not approve the borderline criticizing/judgmental remarks, not singling out you everyone who keeps starting with that lol. Don't take it harsh I'm just saying we are all grown men here just state your opinion and be real, remember we all are entitled to that. Just dont start bashing on a post about bashing.

I am pretty sure my entire post made my opinion on this matter overwhelming clear. I was not equivocating in the least. I braced my arguments with this to let the person I was replying to know I wasn't personally attacking him.  Also, who is 'bashing'?

Quote from: chuck on June 04, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
First of all, no. you are not understanding me correctly. I would love to know how you got "doesnt want others to be out" from me saying that i support being people out. I think i have said that about three times in this thread.

We seem to be misunderstanding each other in circles.  My interpretation of your argument was that  trans activism has nothing to give you or other specific trans people in every case (stealth vs out vs out and proud) - not that you were against  others 'being out'.  And, I got that opinion about what you said from this statement: 

Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:13:59 AM
I do respect that choice and I get it that openly trans people are making the world better for themselves and other openly trans people. But no, you are not making it better for me.   

My arguments were a cost-benefit analysis and a breakdown of how the benefits can actually help everyone: Stealth,wants to be stealth, out, out and proud-  and could have helped even you. Maybe just the you that existed pre-transition, but the point remains.You can argue those points line by line if you want, and I would defend them.

Quote from: chuck on June 04, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
If you want to stick to the soldier analogy, i think our statement is alot like assuming that all US soldiers are doign something indeniably benefical for every american.  For the record, i say this as a guy who has served in the military (just to clear - not the US miliatary but an allied force)  I do not think that what ive done is 'undeniably' good for America. I did what i felt was best. That is what it comes down to in both situations. Our decisions are not the best for anyone or everyone. they are the best fo us. soometimes those decisions hurt people and sometimes they help. but to say that our actions help everyone? meh.

I picked the war analogy because it was convenient. I don't think we (America) should be at war at all, and I feel like if I answered this directly I'd end up sounding like I was defending it somehow.

I thought stealth shaming was people telling those who are stealth they should be out or they are hurting the cause.  That is never an opinion I would support or defend.

I just think the people on the Internet who make videos and post pictures on sites like f*** yeah ftms etc are doing something great for trans people everywhere who are struggling with what it means and what to do with themselves in order to enjoy their lives.  It is awesome to me that so many people can see the journey of others and realize they have options.  It has benefits for those who are beginning their journey into transition. That was my only point. 

Others on this thread seem to really disagree. For some people, it is because it may compromise them in the future.  I find this unlikely to happen, thus it is nothing to me compared to the benefits I listed.

Quote from: chuck on June 04, 2013, 12:55:33 PM
They do what they want for whatever reasons and no matter how they justify it, I am free to disagree that it is beneficial. I think it is incredibly narrow minded to assume that "every single" trans person benefits from anything that one trans person / group does.

Does every single action someone takes benefit every single person every time? To say that would be absurd.  I meant trans activism and awareness in the aggregate, however - I *do* think anything that raises *positive* consciousness of trans people is beneficial for trans people everywhere in the long run. 

ALSO - and this is a key point.  Arguments about this are sorta moot.  Cat is out of the bag, etc etc.  The explosion of trans related videos and blogs speak to this fact.

Quote from: aleon515 on June 04, 2013, 02:41:36 PM
But just because you are "out" doesn't mean you have a sign on you saying you are out and are out in 100% of situations. It is just exhausting and kind of weird.
--
It could be dangerous in some areas. I think actually that being out might be more common in the east coast, west coast, and certain other areas (mountain SW), and some countries, where it is more acceptable to be different. There are dangers.
I use the men's room nearly 100% of the time. Not sure if I will use it in Las Vegas when I fly in and out. (If anybody has an opinion they can PM me.)
--Jay

Yeah, most people I meet who consider themself out" including myself is casual for most points, only diffrence between them and people being stealth is they likely to be honest with you if you ask them if your trans, and there also likely to tell you if its has value for the contacts. sure I cant speak for every single human being, but thats how I felt.

your from US right?
For the danger point, do they have self-defence lextures for GLBTQ people agenst hate crime in your area?
---- 

Quote from: Natkat on June 04, 2013, 04:45:05 PM
Y only diffrence between them and people being stealth is they likely to be honest with you if you ask them if your trans, and there also likely to tell you if its has value for the contacts. sure I cant speak for every single human being, but thats how I felt.

your from US right?
For the danger point, do they have self-defence lextures for GLBTQ people agenst hate crime in your area?
----

I don't like the word "honest". I know  you didn't mean anything but it could be misinterpreted. I like to think of the level of "disclosure" that you would want. Since we are male, we don't have to tell anybody anything else. If we want to that's another story. But we all live in a sort of a dance in terms of disclosure. Even people who are not out, may be out to certain people in their lives.

Safe in the US?
I feel pretty safe in Albuquerque. It's a very LGBT friendly city. But there are places which are not safe. When I was in Chicago, which is just a big city and not particularly LBGT unfriendly there were the "pink panthers" which is like a group that goes out and protects gays.

There are of , of course, places which are very unsafe. 

The US is very diverse and some places are probably the most LBGT friendly in the world, and some places where I don't think anyone  is out. So if you go to the US, you might want to think about where you might be safest.

--Jay

Quote from: spacerace on June 04, 2013, 03:52:51 PM
I am pretty sure my entire post made my opinion on this matter overwhelming clear. I was not equivocating in the least. I braced my arguments with this to let the person I was replying to know I wasn't personally attacking him.  Also, who is 'bashing'?

I'm pretty sure when I said saying I'm not judging you or criticizing does not approve the borderline criticizing/judgmental remarks, not singling out you everyone who keeps starting with that lol. Don't take it harsh I'm just saying we are all grown men here just state your opinion and be real, remember we all are entitled to that. Just dont start bashing on a post about bashing.

I clean cut, said I am not singling you out and when I said bashing, it appears this topic is becoming bashful toward everyone's different opinions, although i made a error I meant "don't start bashing  on a post about shaming"

Just like you saying I was not personally attacking him, I'm not personally attacking you.

When I said, stating your not criticizing does not change the words being said after that from being, criticism or judgmental just kill it and spill your feeling.

I tried to make light of it with a lol, but you seem very defensive. Like I said though, we are all grown men here state how you feel and move on. This topic has become divided and off track from folks taking it all too personal.
Who cares everyone be you, stay stealth, stay bitter, stay an activist, and just float in your skin 

Quote from: aleon515 on June 04, 2013, 08:10:44 PM
I don't like the word "honest". I know  you didn't mean anything but it could be misinterpreted. I like to think of the level of "disclosure" that you would want. Since we are male, we don't have to tell anybody anything else. If we want to that's another story. But we all live in a sort of a dance in terms of disclosure. Even people who are not out, may be out to certain people in their lives.

Safe in the US?
I feel pretty safe in Albuquerque. It's a very LGBT friendly city. But there are places which are not safe. When I was in Chicago, which is just a big city and not particularly LBGT unfriendly there were the "pink panthers" which is like a group that goes out and protects gays.

how is it to be misunderstood?
-
Okay, I just know a couple of guys I know made self defence courses for GLBT people to train people who was affraid of hatecrimes to use self defense if they got into nasty situations. the opinion of it are mixed, I personally feel its a great idea for the places where the hate crimes risk are high.
---

Quote from: chuck on June 03, 2013, 05:22:38 AM
1. i never blamed anyone  anything

Well, frankly, I cannot understand how "people screaming about being transgender" (which is shorthand for people who are out and talk about being out a lot, and that characterization is in and of itself pretty dismissive, quite honestly.) could possibly be detrimental to trans people as a whole, unless you are suggesting that they are affecting how cis- people view us.   Please feel free to correct me.   If that is how you meant it, then there's really no way around it, that is expecting certain people who are gender variant to act a certain way in order to appease transpobes.   In what other way could people's outward expression of their identities be detrimental?

Quote from: Simon on June 05, 2013, 05:09:51 PM

yes lol

We do get shame, and I'm not sure why. I'm not "hiding" this part about me, its just no ones business what my body was like at birth.

Quote from: anibioman on May 29, 2013, 08:45:51 PM
I'm transitioning to be male not to be FTM.

This makes total sense. It seems like many "out" guys are transitioning to be seen as ftm trans, but isn't the whole point of transitioning to just be seen as male?

Quote from: notyouraverageguy on June 06, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
It seems like many "out" guys are transitioning to be seen as ftm trans, but isn't the whole point of transitioning to just be seen as male?

For me, yes. Not for them, apparently.

Quote from: notyouraverageguy on June 06, 2013, 06:11:15 PM
We do get shame, and I'm not sure why. I'm not "hiding" this part about me, its just no ones business what my body was like at birth.
This makes total sense. It seems like many "out" guys are transitioning to be seen as ftm trans, but isn't the whole point of transitioning to just be seen as male?

Well I see my identity as "transgender". I am not transitioning to be FTM, but I acknowledge that I will never be completely 100% male. I guess though I don't feel completely binary. So I think there might be a difference, as I have heard a lot of "out" guys say this sort of thing. But I have never shamed anybody for being stealth, it's not my business for one thing. Also I don't feel that it is "bad" in anyway. I have maintained that "out" people and "stealth" people might be a bit like subgroups with usually different attitudes and povs.

@Alex-- Just don't want to use the term "more honest", it sounds like someone else might be "less honest". I don't feel unsafe where I am. But I think it's quite a liberal area.

--Jay

Same here, I'm not transitioning to be FTM but to be the male I've always been. I know once I'm 100% where I want to be this transitioning phase and being born "female" thing will not exist. I'm hiding nothing and there isn't anything to disclose except maybe to sexual partners pre op.