I'm on my first weekend presenting full-time as a woman. I'm checking out of my hotel after attending the Philly Trans Health Conference. I ask the bellman where I could find the ladies' room (because I have a long car trip back to Maryland).

He gestures behind him. "The MEN's room is over there."

I wanted to make sure I heard him. "Huh?"

He gestures again. "The MEN's room is that way."

Do full-time ladies deal with this stuff all the time or was I just unlucky on my first weekend?

(BTW I informed management. They apologized. Unfortunately I was too flustered to read the guy's name tag).

Wait, so let me get this straight.  You are at a Trans conference and the people at the hotel said that?  Didn't they get a talk of how to properly behave?  That's crappy, I'm sorry.

That is crappy. In Philly too? I'd figure they'd be a little more accommodating / understanding than that. At least the hotel apologized. If they have a 100% satisfaction guarantee policy I'd demand a refund back when my trip was up. That's awful

Men usually make sure I know where the ladies room is and wave me to it when they walk me to the restrooms. But I'm sure it'll get better. It's only your first week full time. Life will go on.

As I understand it, yes it happens. I don't know if "a lot" of times, but it does happen. And sometimes when you're in the ladies' room, you will get hounded and/or chased out of there by women (and sometimes security guards).

Get to know the laws in the area you're in, and your rights. Good luck!

Usually, I'm given cisgender privlidge.  There have been times where I've been denied.  Been blessed on the bathroom front so far.  Pronouns on the other hand...

Anyway here's hoping it was bad luck.

What hotel did you stay at? TBH, there are a lot of jerks in Philly.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on June 16, 2013, 09:31:56 PM
Not like it's perfect but if you want to avoid that all you can do is pass better. It's not about full or not full time. There are lots of ways to pass better at least.

Passing comes better in time though. You learn things like mannerisms, voice, body language, how to walk etc.

I never have problems. But it wasn't always that way.
It takes time to get to that point.
My g girl friends have help me with almost everything.
Walking, standing, mannerism, makeup, hair, clothing for my age and everything else.
For awhile I felt like the girl in "My Fair Lady" movie. It was a hold new culture to learn.
But it has taken and has been was well worth it.
Hang in there suzifrommd. It will get better.
Hugs,
Jillieann

Presentation wont make you pass if you visually are not passable, but it can get you clocked if you are visually passable.

As for why change yourself? Well, if things you do get certain reactions (which they do), and you don't like those reactions, why wouldn't you change them?

Quote from: girl you look fierce on June 16, 2013, 11:04:56 PM
Why change those things though?? Aren't they you to some extent?

Idk. I think it makes sense if presentation changes a lot though.

Yes, and no...they are "you", but often we still have male or male-ish mannerisms, voice, and 100 other details. These things don't change overnight.

Once one is aware of them, then it takes practice--just like when we learned how to be a guy (some of us did try to be a man). Most teen boys don't learn to become men overnight, it is largely a cultural indoctrination...so this is also a form of cultural indoctrination.

It is when one goes full-time that these little things come to the surface...prior to this, we often focus on the big things, like HRT, whether or not to get SRS, how to deal with the wife/ex/kids/extended family, etc. Being FT makes us focus on the minutia of being a woman.

It happens, less as time goes on, but paradoxically you are most likely to be misgendered and treated with transphobia when you are 1) around a mixture of LGBT and cis/straight people, and 2) one of those people has reached their limit of how much "queerness" they can tolerate before they have to say or do something offensive, rude, and stupid. I was enjoying a nice lunch at a nice restaurant in downtown DURING PRIDE, when our waitperson rudely and stupidly insisted on misgendering my boyfriend, even after being corrected twice. She also gave us abysmal service. There were at least two gay couples visible in the restaurant at the time, and she clearly had lost it. Management was notified in person and online.
I know it can really throw you emotionally when it happens, but really it is a reflection on the character and ugliness of the person who is hating, not a reflection of the character and beauty of the person who is on the receiving end. With experience you get better at letting ignorant people's demonstrations and remonstrations land on deaf ears. Or you can choose to educate, escalate, or just escape. *hugs*

Sorry girls, I know I'm a little bit more what's the word?

Demonstrative?

If you are, this is the ideal opportunity.

You say VERY LOUDLY

Are you deaf?

I asked for the LADIES.

This has several effects. Embarrasses the jerk, brings hotel management into play and gives you total power over the situation.

You are the aggrieved, you have rights. Use them.

The next person may not have your strength, they may dissolve in tears. They may go far worse than that.

And if I may: Standing up to jerks is a good feeling, the more you do it the easier it is.

I like it

Ooops 
Cindy

Quote from: Cindy. on June 17, 2013, 05:27:21 AM
Sorry girls, I know I'm a little bit more what's the word?

Demonstrative?

If you are, this is the ideal opportunity.

You say VERY LOUDLY

Are you deaf?

I asked for the LADIES.

This has several effects. Embarrasses the jerk, brings hotel management into play and gives you total power over the situation.

You are the aggrieved, you have rights. Use them.

The next person may not have your strength, they may dissolve in tears. They may go far worse than that.

And if I may: Standing up to jerks is a good feeling, the more you do it the easier it is.

I like it

Ooops 
Cindy

I love it

Quote from: girl you look fierce on June 17, 2013, 05:12:49 AM
Well yeah I can understand. I just wonder if at some point it can become more of an act than anything.

If so, I'm sure you get a whole other set of reactions that you may or may not like ... But if you'd rather pass than be somebody who is not you, I guess that's something the individual will have to deal with.

How do you change your mannerisms though? That seems really hard. I apparently don't need to do this but if I did it seems even harder then voice because it is so ingrained. A lot of it prob depends on size and body type I think.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 17, 2013, 12:10:30 PM
How do you change your mannerisms though? That seems really hard. I apparently don't need to do this but if I did it seems even harder then voice because it is so ingrained. A lot of it prob depends on size and body type I think.

It wasn't hard for me. A lot of it is body language and posture. Using your hands more when you talk, hips in front of the plane of your shoulders, things like that.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 16, 2013, 08:27:10 PM
I'm on my first weekend presenting full-time as a woman. I'm checking out of my hotel after attending the Philly Trans Health Conference. I ask the bellman where I could find the ladies' room (because I have a long car trip back to Maryland).

He gestures behind him. "The MEN's room is over there."

I wanted to make sure I heard him. "Huh?"

He gestures again. "The MEN's room is that way."

Do full-time ladies deal with this stuff all the time or was I just unlucky on my first weekend?

(BTW I informed management. They apologized. Unfortunately I was too flustered to read the guy's name tag).

The Potty Police strike again. I wonder if it's a full time job with benfits.

I would have gone Bon qui qui on him big time.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on June 17, 2013, 04:33:39 PM
I think you can make little tweaks and stuff but really significantly changing them seems like a stretch... yeah I never worried about mannerisms much myself, I think I always had femme mannerisms and nobody really cared, even presenting male.

A therapist I was seeing for anxiety a long time ago noticed that, and she said that by contrast most of her patients pay little or no attention to body language at all. So I don't know if people really even think about it that much. Men seem naturally less self-conscious about their body language and stuff though.

Yeah you're right you can def make tweaks but I think it's a stretch to go from a very male take-up-all-the-space-and-not-care approach to a more delicate, feminine way. Plus it would look fake unless you did it little by little. I was actually kinda surprised when people told me how feminine I carried myself.

Nobody ever cared but they would laugh at any attempt to be more masculine because it just seemed weird and unnatural. I guess I'm pretty lucky. It's not like I carry myself flamboyantly either because people would be like you just walk and act like a girl but not like a femme gay guy I don't know how you do it. But I don't do anything lol. I would hate to have to change it must be so hard but it is definitely an underrated part of passability.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on June 16, 2013, 09:31:56 PM
Not like it's perfect but if you want to avoid that all you can do is pass better. It's not about full or not full time. There are lots of ways to pass better at least.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on June 17, 2013, 12:26:46 PM
It wasn't hard for me. A lot of it is body language and posture. Using your hands more when you talk, hips in front of the plane of your shoulders, things like that.

I posted mostly because I wanted to hear from the non-passing girls how often this happens. I figured that the girls who pass don't have a problem. Why would they?

I am putting just about every effort I can into passing. I think I'm pretty much as passable as I can realistically be, given my general level of ineptitude and cluelessness and the lack of someone in my in-person life to give me good advice (most of the MtFs I know personally pass way worse than I do).

By the stares I get, I know I must not pass well. My voice and mannerisms are as close to female as anyone's I know, so those aren't the problem. As for walking and posture, I would love some help in that area, but I'm just not a graceful person. And physically, my hips are narrow (and I'm not about to wear false hips), what belly fat I have rides high, but the biggest problem is probably my face, which is lean and so doesn't hide my facial structure.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 16, 2013, 09:40:56 PM
What hotel did you stay at? TBH, there are a lot of jerks in Philly.

Philadelphia Downtown Marriott. To be fair to Philly, aside from the stares and furtive glances, that was the only problem during the entire three days I was there.

Quote from: Cindy. on June 17, 2013, 05:27:21 AM
And if I may: Standing up to jerks is a good feeling, the more you do it the easier it is.

Yup.

It's a skill I need to practice. I'm not good at off-the-cuff responses, and at that point I just wanted to pee and get on the road. Hopefully I'll get the hang of the putting-jerks-in-their-place thing as time goes on.

Quote from: JulieR on June 17, 2013, 12:21:10 PM
My therapist has me tagged (correctly) as a people pleaser.  She's encouraging me to watch Roseanne for some pointers in learning how to be a lot more mean.

Thanks for the laugh. I actually channel my inner Roseanne a little too often and at inappropriate times, so I keep her under wraps, but that makes it hard to call on her when I need her.

Quote from: MadelineB on June 17, 2013, 01:52:18 AM
It happens, less as time goes on, but paradoxically you are most likely to be misgendered and treated with transphobia when you are 1) around a mixture of LGBT and cis/straight people, and 2) one of those people has reached their limit of how much "queerness" they can tolerate before they have to say or do something offensive, rude, and stupid.

I think you're right this is probably exactly what's going on. Maddy, you are so wise.

Quote from: MadelineB on June 17, 2013, 01:52:18 AM
With experience you get better at letting ignorant people's demonstrations and remonstrations land on deaf ears. Or you can choose to educate, escalate, or just escape. *hugs*

This is very validating. Thank you.

I'm just happy I'm out of the phase when I got looked at weird in BOTH bathrooms.