QuoteA mass for gay and lesbian Catholics has been held for the last time in central London because the Church says it goes against its views on sexuality.

The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales said it conflicted with religious teachings on sexuality.

The Archbishop of Westminster has asked organisers of the service in Soho to instead concentrate on providing pastoral care.

Gay rights charity Stonewall has said it was a "real shame".

The masses have been held at Our Lady of the Assumption Church in Warwick Street, Soho, for the last six years. Previously they had been congregating in an Anglican church.

Joe Stanley, chairman of Soho Masses Pastoral Council, said: "Because a lot of LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] people find a lot of difficulty in being open and honest in Church, what we offer here is the ability, twice a month, to come and stand openly and honestly and directly before God."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21490633

In posting this I don't seek to incite any of the usualy nonsense attacking the RCs.

All  religious groups have their doctrines. I sincerely hope that we here as well as people in the wider world can see this as an opportunity to reach out rather than to surround yet another group of good people in yet more unwarrented criticism over matters outwith their own control.

I don't have anything against Catholics. I was part of the Roman Catholic Church myself for quite a while. I stopped going to church because it didn't feel like a safe place for me. The fact that I was trying to be myself in an environment that taught that I am committing a grave moral sin for doing exactly that was driving me neurotic.

I applaud your commitment to religious tolerance - for your commitment to respecting other people's differing religious customs and religious doctrine.

However, as with any form of good will -- there will be people who will seek to abuse your good will and take advantage of you for nefarious ends. I suspect, in your commentary, you are falling for exactly such an attempt.

Yes, it is important, VERY important to respect differing religious views and customs. That said, there is no need at all to put up with bigotry in the *guise* of religious custom and doctrine.

Bigotry against LGBT people is not acceptable -- and I might add, it is not intrinsic to Catholicism. It is, rather, a symptom of a corrupt hierarchy --- and is more closely related to another scandal in the RCC that you probably have heard of. I'm referring to the scandal of the hierarchy covering up for priests who molested small, defenseless children.

People who demand accountability for the sex-abuse scandals aren't picking on Catholics or Catholicism. (Many of them, I might add *are* Catholic.) They are just trying to protect children from sexual abuse.

And people who are pushing the Roman Catholic Church (and some other denominations) to revise their views on LGBT people aren't picking on Catholics either. No. They are just trying to protect LGBT people (including LGBT children) from psychological abuse (which is just as real and potentially life-shattering as other forms of abuse) --- not to mention other abuses that become more likely when clergy promote the ridiculous notion that being LGBT is somehow anti-God. Oh - and I might add - many of the people demanding these reforms are *also* Catholic.

If you're worried that demanding reform on this issue might be seen as anti-Catholic, I have a suggestion. Instead if speaking out on your *own* against the abuses of LGBT Catholics, how about you just lend your voice in support of *Catholics* who are *already* speaking out and protesting against it. Trust me, there are *plenty* of such Catholics - and they'd much appreciate your support. Many of them are among the same people who are demanding accountability for the child-molestation scandal.

But whatever you do -- don't let anyone corrupt your good will of commitment to respecting religious diversity by making you think that it needs to include silence in the face of homophobia every time someone cleverly disguises it as part of a religion.

Kia Ora Jill,

I've only this to say on the matter....Why does the Catholic god need believers to worship 'him' in a church building anyway ?

It seems to me that 'man' has cocoon this god in brick and mortar instead of in the individual's heart and mind...

There... I've said it...


Metta Zenda

A church isn't a building. A church is the people *in* the building.

Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there."

Quote from: sophieoftn on February 17, 2013, 08:09:14 PM
If you're worried that demanding reform on this issue might be seen as anti-Catholic, I have a suggestion. Instead if

Thank you both for your responses. I hope there are more because this is an enormously important issue.

I personally have little interest in criticising any religion.

I do have a very real and sincere concern for those fellow gay, lesbian and transgender people who are now finding themselves being cast out, because they are no-longer fashionable.

That was the point I was making and that was the point I was hoping to initiate when I started the thread.

That's awful. I've been saddened by the Catholic Church's decision in recent years to become more and more conservative, alienating the faithful, and becoming a less inclusive organization.

Quote from: sophieoftn on February 17, 2013, 11:52:04 PM
A church isn't a building. A church is the people *in* the building.

Jesus said, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there."

Kia Ora Sophieoftn,

Joe Stanley, chairman of Soho Masses Pastoral Council, said: "Because a lot of LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] people find a lot of difficulty in being open and honest in Church, what we offer here is the ability, twice a month, to come and stand openly and honestly and directly before God."

So I can't see what the problem is...If people make the church and not the building, wouldn't it make more sense for 'the people' to worship 'together' elsewhere-in other words 'any' old building would do...That was the point I was making...

Attachment to 'material' things will eventually bring suffering...And as sad as it may seem for the LGBT religious community who are no longer welcome in the Soho church,  this is a fact of life...

This is not a dig at the religious, I'm just stating the obvious from a outsider's point of view...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on February 18, 2013, 03:50:44 PMSo I can't see what the problem is...If people make the church and not the building, wouldn't it make more sense for 'the people' to worship 'together' elsewhere-in other words 'any' old building would do...That was the point I was making...

I'm not saying that there isn't a way to get by spiritually now that the Archbishop of Westminster has shut the Soho mass down. But it is an obstacle that is very hurtful and shouldn't be put in place - and part of a general alienation of faithful Catholics from the RCC.

These people have been alienated from the RCC for being LGBT. Please don't compound it by alienating them from here on account of being Catholic (and being Catholic includes the bit about Mass being important).

Quote from: Zenda on February 18, 2013, 03:50:44 PMAttachment to 'material' things will eventually bring suffering...

So is your support of the welfare of LGBT Catholics dependent on them converting from Catholicism to Buddhism? (I say Buddhism because what you're saying sounds a lot like saying "Oh, they should accept the Four Noble Truths and problem solved!")

The people affected are Catholic. Mass is important.

Quote from: Zenda on February 18, 2013, 03:50:44 PMAnd as sad as it may seem for the LGBT religious community who are no longer welcome in the Soho church,  this is a fact of life...

This is not a dig at the religious, I'm just stating the obvious from a outsider's point of view...

I agree it is not meant as a dig at the religious - but that doesn't mean that it isn't what it in fact ends up as.

Support for LGBT people who are hurt shouldn't depend on their willingness to change the religion-and-faith part of who they are.

I think I understand now what the starter of this thread meant when mentioning a desire to avoid isolating people of a particular faith. If your support of LGBT people is contingent on them changing their faith.

You don't see what the problem is? I'll spell it out. Having the one Mass where you could feel safe as yourself taken away is something that can deeply scar Catholics. May not be hurtful to you - - but it is very harsh to those who used to attend the Soho mass. That's where the problem is.

Oh --- and it's the message to them that they are seen as being anti-God --- and a message to others that it's okay to discriminate in other ways.

Don't ask yourself "Would what happened scathe me if it happened to me or someone just like me?" Rather ask yourself "How would something like this affect the kind of people it's directed at?" When you ask yourself this - it should become very obvious what the problem is -- because the ones whom this is directed against are Catholic - and that means that this Mass is very important for them.

Quote from: sophieoftn on February 18, 2013, 05:16:36 PM
I'm not saying that there isn't a way to get by spiritually now that the Archbishop of Westminster has shut the Soho mass down. But it is an obstacle that is very hurtful and shouldn't be put in place - and part of a general alienation of faithful Catholics from the RCC.

These people have been alienated from the RCC for being LGBT. Please don't compound it by alienating them from here on account of being Catholic (and being Catholic includes the bit about Mass being important).
So is your support of the welfare of LGBT Catholics dependent on them converting from Catholicism to Buddhism? (I say Buddhism because what you're saying sounds a lot like saying "Oh, they should accept the Four Noble Truths and problem solved!")

The people affected are Catholic. Mass is important.
I agree it is not meant as a dig at the religious - but that doesn't mean that it isn't what it in fact ends up as.

Support for LGBT people who are hurt shouldn't depend on their willingness to change the religion-and-faith part of who they are.

I think I understand now what the starter of this thread meant when mentioning a desire to avoid isolating people of a particular faith. If your support of LGBT people is contingent on them changing their faith.

You don't see what the problem is? I'll spell it out. Having the one Mass where you could feel safe as yourself taken away is something that can deeply scar Catholics. May not be hurtful to you - - but it is very harsh to those who used to attend the Soho mass. That's where the problem is.

Oh --- and it's the message to them that they are seen as being anti-God --- and a message to others that it's okay to discriminate in other ways.

Don't ask yourself "Would what happened scathe me if it happened to me or someone just like me?" Rather ask yourself "How would something like this affect the kind of people it's directed at?" When you ask yourself this - it should become very obvious what the problem is -- because the ones whom this is directed against are Catholic - and that means that this Mass is very important for them.

Kia Ora Sophieoftn,

My apologies if you misunderstood me, however, I was just stated the 'obvious' that is, the Soho church LGBT community are 'suffering' because things have changed[and change is inevitable] ..

I'm not trying to convert anybody to Buddhism [the middle way]-The path people 'choose' to follow is their path and if it brings them comfort or sorrow, again that's their choice.. On the bright side, what doesn't kill you-makes you stronger...

However Einstein wrote "A definition of insanity: Continuing to do the 'same' thing over and over again, each time 'hoping' for a different 'result' !"

Just pointing out an obvious fact-"one clings-one suffers"... 

It saddens me to read about what is happening, I have compassion for them and can empathise with their plight [in a detached kinda way] but how a person 'chooses' to see the world is up to them...At times we can be our own worst enemy...

BTW What does the bible say about emotional 'attachment' ? I don't know what it says so this is a genuine question...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on February 18, 2013, 08:00:41 PM


BTW What does the bible say about emotional 'attachment' ? I don't know what it says so this is a genuine question...

Metta Zenda

That very much depends upon who you hear the Bible from.

But for most Catholics, their Church is the only path to salvation. I'm sure these people will be feeling very confused and hurt at this time.

Our views on Catholicism aside, they are in need of support.

Quote from: CybilB on February 18, 2013, 02:38:11 PM
That's awful. I've been saddened by the Catholic Church's decision in recent years to become more and more conservative, alienating the faithful, and becoming a less inclusive organization.

We now have, for the first time in history,  a Jesuit Pope Francis and it remains to be seen how activist, "different" he really is, as no Church has ever really lived up to it's promises. The following is a direct quote from my Univ website - it was specifically "I" who requested the addition of us ""changelings"".

Quote from: on DiversityFairfield University defines diversity in the broadest sense, reflecting its commitment to creating a more inclusive community that is reflective of the richly diverse global community of which we are part. Diversity encompasses not only racial, ethnic, and religious diversity, but also diversity of socioeconomic contexts, cultural perspectives, national origins, sexual orientation, gender identity, age, physical ability, and educational backgrounds.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on February 18, 2013, 08:00:41 PM
Kia Ora Sophieoftn,

My apologies if you misunderstood me, however, I was just stated the 'obvious' that is, the Soho church LGBT community are 'suffering' because things have changed[and change is inevitable] ..

Mass, (also called the Divine Liturgy) for Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. is a very ancient form of Christian worship where the Christian scriptures are meditated, ancient prayers recited, and inspirational hymns and antiphons sung, but the centre of the Mass or Divine Liturgy, is the Body and Blood of Christ in the forms of Bread and Wine... these elements are consecrated and taken by sincere Christians as a form of intimate union with God (called Holy Eucharist, or Holy Communion, or the Blessed Sacrament).

While Protestant Christians have their own way about Jesus; Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans seek to become one with God's presence (divinisation, or theosis), and the Holy Eucharist is the way that the Christian can take the form of bread and wine and in remembrance of Christ, become united in his presence of love and mercy.

To take that away from these queer Catholics who had a Mass specially for them, is quite affecting. They could attend Mass in a more queer-friendly Anglican parish, but Catholicism is not just a religious denomination of Christianity, but it is a culture and way of life.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

In the sense of attachment, the Christian teachings speak of being unattached with the world, to be 'in the world, but not of the world,' and to be attached to Christ.

The great love and peace of God becomes known in the manifestation of Jesus Christ, and by loving Him, following His teachings of justice, peace, love, and goodwill (the Gospel, or 'good news'), and trying to be more like Him, we will attain the 'Kingdom of God' which is a state where the soul is in absolute peace and union with God, and bring the same spiritual blessings to everything around us.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid." - Jesus Christ (John 14:27)

Quote from: Kuan Yin on February 18, 2013, 08:00:41 PM

Just pointing out an obvious fact-"one clings-one suffers"... 

It saddens me to read about what is happening, I have compassion for them and can empathise with their plight [in a detached kinda way] but how a person 'chooses' to see the world is up to them...At times we can be our own worst enemy...

Imagine a Chinese Buddhist lay community worshipping and following Amitabha Buddha in the same temple for years, and then being told one day that their temple will become a Daoist place of worship. Inasmuch as it may be easy to say to not be attached, in practice and practicality it still affects all spiritual communities.

Quote from: Rahel on June 18, 2013, 04:11:08 AM
Imagine a Chinese Buddhist lay community worshipping and following Amitabha Buddha in the same temple for years, and then being told one day that their temple will become a Daoist place of worship. Inasmuch as it may be easy to say to not be attached, in practice and practicality it still affects all spiritual communities.

Kia Ora Rahel,

If they "worshipped" the Buddha I would expect them to suffer, however if they practised the teachings (The Dharma) they would gradually be freed from suffering...

If a lay Buddhist understood, experienced and practised the Dharma they would be following the Four Noble Truths which lead to the Eight Fold Path...A key component of the Four Noble Truths is the second one "The Cause of "Dukkha" (dissatisfaction) and in all aspects of ones life "attachment" to what is not permanent brings "Dukkha"...

So yes some lay Buddhists too would no doubt "suffer" if something similar was to happen, but it is something they must learn to overcome by practice...(The art of  non-attachment "Letting go")

From what I gather many Chinese practice 'both'Taoism and Buddhism (the teachings are compatible) and both see Kuan Yin as a goddess of compassion (BTW I just see her as a part of all of us, which at times needs to be aired out 'expressed')

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Rahel on June 18, 2013, 04:03:39 AM
Mass, (also called the Divine Liturgy) for Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc. is a very ancient form of Christian worship where the Christian scriptures are meditated, ancient prayers recited, and inspirational hymns and antiphons sung, but the centre of the Mass or Divine Liturgy, is the Body and Blood of Christ in the forms of Bread and Wine... these elements are consecrated and taken by sincere Christians as a form of intimate union with God (called Holy Eucharist, or Holy Communion, or the Blessed Sacrament).

While Protestant Christians have their own way about Jesus; Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans seek to become one with God's presence (divinisation, or theosis), and the Holy Eucharist is the way that the Christian can take the form of bread and wine and in remembrance of Christ, become united in his presence of love and mercy.

To take that away from these queer Catholics who had a Mass specially for them, is quite affecting. They could attend Mass in a more queer-friendly Anglican parish, but Catholicism is not just a religious denomination of Christianity, but it is a culture and way of life.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

In the sense of attachment, the Christian teachings speak of being unattached with the world, to be 'in the world, but not of the world,' and to be attached to Christ.

The great love and peace of God becomes known in the manifestation of Jesus Christ, and by loving Him, following His teachings of justice, peace, love, and goodwill (the Gospel, or 'good news'), and trying to be more like Him, we will attain the 'Kingdom of God' which is a state where the soul is in absolute peace and union with God, and bring the same spiritual blessings to everything around us.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid." - Jesus Christ (John 14:27)

Kia Ora Rahel,

Can your "God and or Jesus"( Omnipresent) only be found in a brick and mortar place of worship? Or are they more portable ie, you carry them within ?

I'm not ridiculing your belief, just trying to find out why material things (Buildings) are so important when it comes to worshipping your god...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 18, 2013, 02:29:00 PM
Kia Ora Rahel,

If they "worshipped" the Buddha I would expect them to suffer, however if they practised the teachings (The Dharma) they would gradually be freed from suffering...

From what I gather many Chinese practice 'both'Taoism and Buddhism (the teachings are compatible) and both see Kuan Yin as a goddess of compassion (BTW I just see her as a part of all of us, which at times needs to be aired out 'expressed')

Metta Zenda

The two systems culturally are very compatible, but the teachings themselves are quite different. The goal of Buddhism as nirvana and the goal of Daoism with the immortals is completely opposite.

What I am trying to say, that even when lay Buddhists are following the Dharma, they still do so through one of the Vehicles... In Mahayana Buddhism, specifically Pure Land Buddhism, the goal is very different. Because of the hundreds and hundreds of Buddhist Sutras out there, it is good to focus only on a few to perfect one's life.

The system I am most familiar with is Pure Land Buddhism, and if you read all three of the Pure Land Sutras, they teach that the best system in this lifetime is to love Amitabha Buddha and chant His Name, and by doing so, we can come to the state of Pure Land. Both literal and metaphorical cease necessitation at this stage, when one is immersed in Buddha-nama, or nianfo (or nembutsu), in the remembrance of Buddha's Name.

So worshipping Buddha and following His Dharma is quite very similar; to present a dualistic outlook of would seem quite intolerent, imo. Even if Buddha Dharma is an inner cultivation, one still needs help in the material world: thus, temples, statues, incense, gongs, recitation of prayers and the Sutras, taking Refuge (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha), making food offerings to express gratitude and thankfulness, etc. These things cultivate community expression of the Dharma, and are supremely important as well.

I think it is better to think that lay people who are earnest and honest in their worship as approaching spiritual life in their own way, and working out their karma, rather than 'suffering.'

~*~*~*~*~*~

Thus, the Christian Writings speak of God being everywhere; His presence is in the entirety of Creation. But for the Christian, the pinnacle of God's love and mercy is very difficult to understand, and it is for this reason Christ becomes the 'image of the invisible God.' Thus, while God is everywhere, a more practical expression of God is centred in the personhood of Christ Jesus. Thus, the 'Sacraments' that Jesus instituted (The Eucharist mainly, but also Anointing of the Sick, Baptism, Confirmation, etc.) help remind us of living a 'sacramental life;' that is, a life where spiritual and material are not separate, and the world is as sacred as the realm of Spirit.

Mass is not a building... A 'church' is the people, not the building, and Mass is this ancient form of Christian worship that can take place anywhere, but finds itself better equipped in a housed area. The Eucharist is the epitome of Catholic worship, and Mass is the setting in which that sacred ritual takes place.

Quote from: Rahel on June 18, 2013, 04:24:08 PM
The two systems culturally are very compatible, but the teachings themselves are quite different. The goal of Buddhism as nirvana and the goal of Daoism with the immortals is completely opposite.

What I am trying to say, that even when lay Buddhists are following the Dharma, they still do so through one of the Vehicles... In Mahayana Buddhism, specifically Pure Land Buddhism, the goal is very different. Because of the hundreds and hundreds of Buddhist Sutras out there, it is good to focus only on a few to perfect one's life.

The system I am most familiar with is Pure Land Buddhism, and if you read all three of the Pure Land Sutras, they teach that the best system in this lifetime is to love Amitabha Buddha and chant His Name, and by doing so, we can come to the state of Pure Land. Both literal and metaphorical cease necessitation at this stage, when one is immersed in Buddha-nama, or nianfo (or nembutsu), in the remembrance of Buddha's Name.

So worshipping Buddha and following His Dharma is quite very similar; to present a dualistic outlook of would seem quite intolerent, imo. Even if Buddha Dharma is an inner cultivation, one still needs help in the material world: thus, temples, statues, incense, gongs, recitation of prayers and the Sutras, taking Refuge (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha), making food offerings to express gratitude and thankfulness, etc. These things cultivate community expression of the Dharma, and are supremely important as well.

I think it is better to think that lay people who are earnest and honest in their worship as approaching spiritual life in their own way, and working out their karma, rather than 'suffering.'

~*~*~*~*~*~

Thus, the Christian Writings speak of God being everywhere; His presence is in the entirety of Creation. But for the Christian, the pinnacle of God's love and mercy is very difficult to understand, and it is for this reason Christ becomes the 'image of the invisible God.' Thus, while God is everywhere, a more practical expression of God is centred in the personhood of Christ Jesus. Thus, the 'Sacraments' that Jesus instituted (The Eucharist mainly, but also Anointing of the Sick, Baptism, Confirmation, etc.) help remind us of living a 'sacramental life;' that is, a life where spiritual and material are not separate, and the world is as sacred as the realm of Spirit.

Mass is not a building... A 'church' is the people, not the building, and Mass is this ancient form of Christian worship that can take place anywhere, but finds itself better equipped in a housed area. The Eucharist is the epitome of Catholic worship, and Mass is the setting in which that sacred ritual takes place.

Kia Ora Rahel,

Thank you for the very interesting insight into both Christian and Eastern schools of thought...

It would seem you have a good 'intellectual' understanding of Buddhism (more so than my self)...Just out of interest, when you were a practitioner did you experienced the benefits that come from putting the Buddha's teachings into practice ? I'm just curious as to why you chose to follow another path/s...

However I do think we differ in our understanding of the Buddha's Dharma (The true nature of things)...Many approach Buddhism from a 'religious' mindset such as yourself and many lay Buddhists in Asia-(and for that matter many here in the West too) whilst others like myself see it purely as "science of the mind"...

The Buddhism I follow is 'practical' no prayers, no worship(as in religious-type worship), just daily meditation and live life according to the Dharma, but I do greatly respect and show  gratitude to The Buddha for providing these mind training tools/techniques...When I see an image of the Buddha (or Kuan Yin), consciously and subconsciously I'm reminded of the wholesome qualities they represent and that we too have the same wholesome qualities  and just need to work at them...

If one see Buddhism as anything other than studying, understanding and training ones mind,( through meditation, compassion, tolerance, acceptance of what is, that is understanding/experiencing "non-self" ) then I guess it becomes nothing more than a 'religion' and if one finds comfort in this-then who am I to judge-that's up to our friend karma...

Thanks again Rahel

(And sorry Jill for hogging your thread_ But then you know my middle name  "Thread Hogger") 

Metta Zenda    

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 19, 2013, 02:04:22 AM
Kia Ora Rahel,

Thank you for the very interesting insight into both Christian and Eastern schools of thought...

It would seem you have a good 'intellectual' understanding of Buddhism (more so than my self)...Just out of interest, when you were a practitioner did you experienced the benefits that come from putting the Buddha's teachings into practice ? I'm just curious as to why you chose to follow another path/s...

However I do think we differ in our understanding of the Buddha's Dharma (The true nature of things)...Many approach Buddhism from a 'religious' mindset such as yourself and many lay Buddhists in Asia-(and for that matter many here in the West too) whilst others like myself see it purely as "science of the mind"...

The Buddhism I follow is 'practical' no prayers, no worship(as in religious-type worship), just daily meditation and live life according to the Dharma, but I do greatly respect and show  gratitude to The Buddha for providing these mind training tools/techniques...When I see an image of the Buddha (or Kuan Yin), consciously and subconsciously I'm reminded of the wholesome qualities they represent and that we too have the same wholesome qualities  and just need to work at them...

If one see Buddhism as anything other than studying, understanding and training ones mind,( through meditation, compassion, tolerance, acceptance of what is, that is understanding/experiencing "non-self" ) then I guess it becomes nothing more than a 'religion' and if one finds comfort in this-then who am I to judge-that's up to our friend karma...

Thanks again Rahel

(And sorry Jill for hogging your thread_ But then you know my middle name  "Thread Hogger") 

Metta Zenda

I think that is meant for another thread; it is certainly not for the focus of this one!

God bless,
Rahel.