QuoteI don't care what anybody else does with their bodies. I just can't comprehend how a man (especially one medically transitioning) could carry a baby for nine months, give birth, and not feel female during that time.

Exactly, I have been wondering the same. I know there are many levels of dysphoria, but carrying a baby to full term is about the most womanly thing someone could do. It would kill me. Could someone who wouldn't mind getting pregnant and giving birth explain this? I am very curious how this works in someone's mind.

Quote from: Mr.X on June 21, 2013, 03:00:14 AM
Exactly, I have been wondering the same. I know there are many levels of dysphoria, but carrying a baby to full term is about the most womanly thing someone could do. It would kill me. Could someone who wouldn't mind getting pregnant and giving birth explain this? I am very curious how this works in someone's mind.

Ditto on this.  I can't personally think of anything more womanly either so the idea personally sickens me.  Would love to know how people could even want or cope with this, especially after being on T.

I wouldn't carry a baby myself, that's for sure. Like many have said, it's probably the most female thing in the world and I couldn't do it. Just... NO.
And my fiancé isn't exactly very fond of the idea of getting pregnant herself, either which is totally fine by me. The whole baby thing just isn't for us.

But IF I ever wanted to have a kid,  I would go with adoption. There are so many unwanted kids in the world who need a home and parents.
But living in Finland would probably be the biggest problem in that case.

Quote from: Simon on June 20, 2013, 07:43:34 PM
I don't care what anybody else does with their bodies. I just can't comprehend how a man (especially one medically transitioning) could carry a baby for nine months, give birth, and not feel female during that time.

Quote from: Mr.X on June 21, 2013, 03:00:14 AM
Exactly, I have been wondering the same. I know there are many levels of dysphoria, but carrying a baby to full term is about the most womanly thing someone could do. It would kill me. Could someone who wouldn't mind getting pregnant and giving birth explain this? I am very curious how this works in someone's mind.

Quote from: Jack_M on June 21, 2013, 03:08:44 AM
Ditto on this.  I can't personally think of anything more womanly either so the idea personally sickens me.  Would love to know how people could even want or cope with this, especially after being on T.

I've had a uterus since before I was born, and I've never felt female in my entire life. Why should I feel female simply because I used it to carry my children? Or because I used the breasts I despise in order to feed my kids so that I could give them the best start in life? I'm concerned at the inference that making those sacrifices should somehow negate my identity as a man. To me, that's a form of internalised transphobia, and I used to be as guilty of it as anyone else.

One of the reasons why I had my kids was because I used to believe that carrying a baby, giving birth and breastfeeding were 'womanly' things that would establish one's femininity and define one as a woman. At the time, I desperately hoped they would do this because I was still in denial about being trans, so I was hoping that motherhood would finally enable me to settle down & be happy as a woman. Imagine my surprise when I found out that it didn't work. I guess, in a way, this was similar to when our MtF sisters do hyper-masculine things such as joining the military whilst in denial, as a way to try to force themselves into masculinity. But the thing is: when I actually did those things, I found that they didn't make me feel female at all. Just like joining the military doesn't make our MtF sisters feel male.

I coped with pregnancy by disassociating myself from the function my body was undertaking. That was easy for me to do because I've spent the last 30+ years disassociating myself from any part of my body below my neck. So my pregnancies were just interesting biological phenomena that the disassociated part of my body could undertake in order for me to fulfil my wish to become a parent to my own biological children (bear in mind that I'm gay, so no chance of a girlfriend to carry a baby for me). Did it feel weird to be pregnant? Yes, undeniably. But I also felt very privileged to be one of the few men who could do something that many cismen would like to do: carry my own children. The weirdest thing, for me, was being called 'mother' or 'mum' by everyone who presumed me to want to take on that social role. That's because my social dysphoria is much stronger than my dysphoria over my internal organs.

I love my kids, and I love being a parent. Since this was the only route was open to me so that I could have children, I'm glad I took it whilst I had the chance. But it didn't in any way detract from my identity as a man. And yes, now that I'm actively medically transitioning, I have the self-assurance and fortitude to go through pregnancy again without feeling that my masculinity would be threatened by it. Because my masculinity is as real today as it was when I was 5 years old... or 25 years old and pregnant.

That having been said, I can comprehend how others might feel differently, or might feel that their masculinity could be brought into question by a pregnancy. I respect that point of view as being valid too. We must each make our choices according to what is right for our own lives.

I applaud the guys who do feel they'd be able to carry a kid. Biologically I don't even know if things work, nor am I in any way curious to find out and would rather have them removed with a rusty knife with no anesthesia than try it.

The thought has definitely crossed my mind before of whether I want them, but if I did I'd probably adopt even if there were a way for me to have a child the same as a "normal" male. In any case I'd never be the one carrying the kid, couldn't deal with that. I already feel cismale unless someone or something goes out of their way to remind me otherwise, and like most other guys the idea of it is alien and weird to me. Like being a spaceship or something.

Yeah I know I'm weird, but c'mon...babies do look like aliens.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 21, 2013, 08:35:34 AM
I've had a uterus since before I was born, and I've never felt female in my entire life. Why should I feel female simply because I used it to carry my children? Or because I used the breasts I despise in order to feed my kids so that I could give them the best start in life?

You also weren't medically transitioning to male and decide to carry a baby at that time. Granted you may have felt a certain way inside but you weren't presenting yourself as male to the world.

Quote from: Simon on June 21, 2013, 09:48:42 AM
You also weren't medically transitioning to male and decide to carry a baby at that time. Granted you may have felt a certain way inside but you weren't presenting yourself as male to the world.

Doesn't matter. Since when is medical transition or presentation necessary to establish our masculinity? My gender identity did not only become valid once I commenced medical treatment; and I certainly don't need the world's permission to consider myself male.

But that's besides the point. As I said in my penultimate paragraph, I'm medically transitioning now, and I'd be perfectly prepared to go through another pregnancy now (if it were medically possible) because my experiences have proven to me that my masculinity was not threatened or negated by doing something that is normally associated with women.

I can fully understand why others might feel differently, but my choices were right for me, especially since adoption isn't an option for me.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 21, 2013, 10:14:32 AM
Doesn't matter. Since when is medical transition or presentation necessary to establish our masculinity? My gender identity did not only become valid once I commenced medical treatment; and I certainly don't need the world's permission to consider myself male.

Doesn't matter what you considered yourself at that time. You were not medically transitioning. You didn't walk into your prenatal appointment with a 5 o'clock shadow and appear fully male. For all intensive purposes you were female to the medical community. I'm not talking about how someone feels. I am talking about the visual reality of the situation at that time.

As others have stated, carrying a child and giving birth is the most female thing someone can do. To each their own though.

Quote from: Simon on June 21, 2013, 10:49:32 AM
Doesn't matter what you considered yourself at that time. You were not medically transitioning. You didn't walk into your prenatal appointment with a 5 o'clock shadow and appear fully male. For all intensive purposes you were female to the medical community. I'm not talking about how someone feels. I am talking about the visual reality of the situation at that time.

I don't see how the medical community enters into one's personal choices. Maybe I didn't walk into an antenatal appointment with a 5 o'clock shadow (although, as I have stated, I'm perfectly willing to do it now), but I have had to walk into a Women's Clinic since starting my medical transition, to have my breasts scanned for tumours, whilst presenting fully as male and with a legal male name, male NHS number etc. I have also had to have several cervical smears and other intimate examinations, mainly due to the damage caused by my oh-so-controversial pregnancies. So I am, for all intents and purposes, male to the medical community - both visually and legally - when I have my breasts scanned or my privates checked. But guess what? Those tests don't make me feel female either. Nor do they negate my masculinity. And if the staff or the women in the waiting room throw strange looks in my direction, well... so what? (As a matter of fact, the staff have been great).

Quote from: Simon on June 21, 2013, 10:49:32 AM
As others have stated, carrying a child and giving birth is the most female thing someone can do. To each their own though.

Oh. Okay. I know I'm autistic, so I sometimes find it difficult to interpret other people's intent, especially over the Internet where I can't hear tone of voice or see facial expressions... but I'm really struggling to find some way to interpret this that doesn't make it seem like a '->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou' comment. Perhaps I'd better just let it sail on by...

Simon, you & I are always going to disagree on the subject of FtM pregnancy. You've made your position clear in various threads; I've made mine equally clear. Why don't we just shake hands like gentlemen and agree to disagree?

Quote
Oh. Okay. I know I'm autistic, so I sometimes find it difficult to interpret other people's intent, especially over the Internet where I can't hear tone of voice or see facial expressions... but I'm really struggling to find some way to interpret this that doesn't make it seem like a '->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou' comment. Perhaps I'd better just let it sail on by...

I also said that, and didn't mean it like that. To me it was a biological point of view. In the animal world, only females carry their young (lets stick to mammals here, because non-mammals are a different story). So that 'ability' is a female trait. It has got nothing to do with being more or less trans if you are willing to carry or not. In fact, I have the utmost respect for transguys who don't see pregnancy as the end of the world. To me, it shows how transsexualism manifests itself in so many different ways.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 21, 2013, 11:14:09 AM
have my breasts scanned for tumours, whilst presenting fully as male and with a legal male name, male NHS number etc. I have also had to have several cervical smears and other intimate examinations, mainly due to the damage caused by my oh-so-controversial pregnancies.

I understand your position on that. I've had mammograms, pap smears, and the ultra invasive trans-vaginal ultrasounds before I had my hysto. That is different. It wasn't something I chose to put myself through. Preventative measures to keep myself healthy and alive due to necessity have absolutely nothing to do with the female act of pregnancy that is a choice.

Your "oh-so-controversial" pregnancies? How so? Where you actively medically transitioning and identifying yourself (to your husband, family, and the medical community) as a man and the father of the children you were also pregnant with? If not you were having a regular run of the mill genetically, socially, and identified as female pregnancy.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 21, 2013, 11:14:09 AM
I'm really struggling to find some way to interpret this that doesn't make it seem like a '->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou' comment. Perhaps I'd better just let it sail on by...

No, it's just a statement in reality. As Mr.X also stated, it is a biological point of view. In nature female mammals are the ones who carry and birth their young. I also don't subscribe to any "trans enough or ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thou" thinking. Yes, I identify on the internet as transgender. In real life I am just a male. If someone says they are a man then they are a man to me. If you were to get pregnant during medical transition (or social transition) I would still see you as a man. I'm not saying I would understand but I would let it be.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 21, 2013, 11:14:09 AM
Simon, you & I are always going to disagree on the subject of FtM pregnancy. You've made your position clear in various threads; I've made mine equally clear. Why don't we just shake hands like gentlemen and agree to disagree?

Yes, we disagree and that is why there is a discussion with opposing viewpoints. There is a problem I see a lot in the trans community. People get far too offended and take things in a personal manner. Just because I don't understand something doesn't mean I am saying it's wrong. I like to try to understand the other side's view, that's all. If you're not comfortable with the discussion then yes we have reached an impasse.

I thought about it a few years ago when I was really depressed and itching to be a father. I figured I could one night stand it then never talk to the guy again so I could have the baby and raise it knowing me as daddy. Realized quickly the whole thing made me sick to my stomach but I still have a strong urge to be a young father. I'd have knocked up a girl in hs if I was cis, I know it.

 FTMDiaries, You are so strong to be able to get pregnant, deliver, and breastfeed your children.  I could never do all that and will never ever get in a position where I could get pg.  My monthly are bad enough and hope to get rid of all those parts as soon as I can.

I could not carry a child.  Being pregnant is out of the question for me.  For me to get pregnant, that means a penis would have to come in contact with my vagina.  I want a penis in between my legs, but not in that kind of way.  First, my dysphoria would skyrocket just seeing that penis and knowing that person has a penis and I don't.  Second, getting pregnant would be another reminder of how I don't have a penis.  Third, if I had a son, my dysphoria would be crippling....having to change his diaper and see his penis....knowing he will get to grow up with the body I always wanted....no....just....no.  More power to those guys out there who want to give birth or already have, but this is not for me.

Even aside from my "lack of penis" syndrome, there are other reasons why I would not have a child, but my next main reason is because of financial purposes.  Having children isn't cheap.  I could be spending that money on something important like anime conventions or cheesecake (not saying kids aren't important in general, just saying they aren't important for me personally).

Plus, the world is overpopulated.  I'm not going to contribute to that.  Also, I am in very poor health and high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes runs in my family and I'm on the verge if getting it.  To potentially pass that down to my children would just be cruel.  If I had the option to not be born I would have gladly taken it.  To this day, I deeply hate that my father and mother created me.  I hate that I was the winning sperm.  And there is a religious reason why I choose not to bring a child into this world but I won't get into that.


In short....yeah having children is not for me.  Do I think about it?  All the time....in the sense that if I were a biological male, I would have one, but since I'm not, I won't

Quote from: Simon on June 21, 2013, 12:01:30 PM
If you're not comfortable with the discussion then yes we have reached an impasse.

If I were uncomfortable with the discussion, I would not have shared such deeply personal and intimate details of my life and the very difficult choices I have made, in an attempt to satisfy several posters' well-intentioned curiosity as to how another FtM transsexual could cope with pregnancy. In doing so, I have expressed my respect and tolerance for their differing opinions and choices. I expect the same in return and have received it from several people in this thread - thank you to everyone who reached out with kind words.

What I'm not comfortable with, however, is having my identity denigrated. After all, as you said:

Quote
If someone says they are a man then they are a man to me.

I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why all this talk about medical transition is an unnecessary distraction. Or perhaps the culture is different where you are? In my part of the world, you can be considered fully transitioned in the eyes of the law, complete with a new birth certificate, without having undergone any medical treatment whatsoever.

For the record, I identified as a transsexual seven years before my first pregnancy. I experienced each pregnancy in the full knowledge of who I was, even if I was publically closeted so that I could have a chance of a 'normal' life. It takes a great deal of inner strength to cope with that kind of disjointedness and I had to find it from somewhere, which is why I know I could do it again post-transition, if I hadn't just learned a couple of weeks ago that I'm no longer able to do so - a fact that has caused me a great deal of pain.

So yes, it seems we have indeed reached an impasse.

Quote from: mm on June 21, 2013, 02:00:24 PM
FTMDiaries, You are so strong to be able to get pregnant, deliver, and breastfeed your children.  I could never do all that and will never ever get in a position where I could get pg.  My monthly are bad enough and hope to get rid of all those parts as soon as I can.

Thanks mm, it wasn't easy but my kids are worth every weird second of it. 

Quote from: Malachite on June 21, 2013, 02:54:47 PM
In short....yeah having children is not for me.  Do I think about it?  All the time....in the sense that if I were a biological male, I would have one, but since I'm not, I won't

I hear you... I have always fantasised about fathering children and I very much regret that it isn't possible.

FTMDiaries, the difference I can see between you, and other guys, having their children before medically transitioning compared to afterwards is that you didn't take a step backwards in being able to present and pass as a male.  To go from being on T, getting all those changes, and being read as male, to then coming of T and feeling your body change back to one female in appearance, and potentially losing the ability to pass would be tough enough for most people.  And then to stick a huge lump of baby in the front... that would take a very specific type of person to have the strength to do that.  I'm not saying that person might not be you, but it's not for everyone, and the decision to attempt to do so should never be taken lightly.  Our mental health should come before anything else in my opinion.

Knowing that you are male, but having never experienced life with a more masculine physique is one thing, although it's true that being pregnant will feminise you, and make it harder/impossible to pass nonetheless.  Once someone is medically transitioned they have to go back to that estrogen system and deal with the changes there, and then add in the feminising baby bump.

I'm just gonna state my own personal opinion.  It's gonna anger some and it's going to be something others might be thinking but aren't saying:

I don't like it because men can't get pregnant.  With all the issues we have with getting gender markers changed and having to commit to a certain length of time, or even get surgery before it's possible.  And with the hoops we have to jump through to even start hormones or get surgery, especially anywhere where medical services may fund it, the reason is because of people who change their mind or jump in and out.  So for that reason, seeing as I'm in early transition and currently jumping a million hoops, I can't agree with it being a good or commendable thing.

So, in my opinion, I don't like it because men getting pregnant is not possible.  In order for a FTM to go through planned pregnancy, they have to quit HRT and become female blooded, and not just that but when pregnant, have HIGHER levels of female hormones than regular non-pregnant females.  To me this is the exact opposite of going on T.  It's like choosing to inject yourself with MORE female hormones rather than T.

I am a man, and I am in transition to male.  For me at least, and with regards to the insane hoops I have to go through, I think that should mean actually transitioning to male.  Accidents can happen with guys who're comfortable with penetrative sex, yes and maybe people aren't so willing to take a morning after pill or whatever.  But planning it, for me, that's just counter productive to the transition!

With regards to other medical procedures we go through, they're unwanted by men.  I don't care how confident others might be with it, no men want a pap smear and the idea of a mammogram makes me sick.  This is because I'm a man, and I see myself as such.  I'm okay with labels of FTM or trans/transgender/transsexual whatever, but the label I best like is simple: I am a man; and as such men shouldn't have to experience these things.  However, they are medical procedures for preventative medicine based on our anatomical build up and can't (or at least shouldn't) be avoided.

Now I'm gonna step away from this discussion because of the negative effect it has on me.  I know it could cause a back lash but I really had to get it out there because it's my opinion and my 2 cents and it's been bugging the hell out of me since I saw this post.  Now my 2 cents is given I can just step back.

The word egg makes me cringe.  I can't even be in the same conversation space as a pregnant women without being uncomfortable. Seems like no kids for me - I think I would even have to make a huge effort to deal with a partner being pregnant. Maybe I'll adopt an older one someday if anything.

thinking about pregnancy in anyway makes me want to rip out those parts as soon as possible