Quote from: peky on June 22, 2013, 05:49:50 PM
I believe in G-d because I have seen, talked to, and touched and be touched by her...what more prove can I demand?

Kia Ora Peky,

Nobody is denying you the right to 'believe' in a god...(even here in the atheist section of the of the forum)  ...

"Different Strokes For Different Folks !"

BTW Every time I hear the term "Touched by god" a scene comes to mind from an old Bob Hope and Bing Crosby "Road To Morocco" movie...In one scene the locals believed Bob's "touched by Allah/God" it's quite a funny scene...Have you seen it Peky ?

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 22, 2013, 06:41:06 PM
Kia Ora Peky,

Nobody is denying you the right to 'believe' in a god...(even here in the atheist section of the of the forum)  ...

"Different Strokes For Different Folks !"

BTW Every time I hear the term "Touched by god" a scene comes to mind from an old Bob Hope and Bing Crosby "Road To Morocco" movie...In one scene the locals believed Bob's "touched by Allah/God" it's quite a funny scene...Have you seen it Peky ?

Metta Zenda

Life is funny until you die

Quote from: peky on June 22, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
Life is funny until you die

I have no problem with people believing what they want.  I don't even know where I stand on the "God" question myself.  It's much easier for me to label myself as agnostic than anything as I don't have evidence for it either way but am open to being proved that a God does exist.  But I need proof for myself before I could be swayed and will remain highly skeptical until that happens.  Having said that, I don't really like when people use Pascal's Wager to intimidate people into believing something they don't.  Fear shouldn't be why one clings to a religion or a God.  They should do so because they have faith and believe it to be true.  If a god did exist, I'm sure he or she would see through those fake believers in a second if they are in fact omniscient.   So the wager doesn't really work regardless. 

Quote from: sentience on June 22, 2013, 01:01:23 PM
"Devoid of the GIFT of faith". God has favourites? That's not fair. Heaven forbid I ever favoured one of my children over another.

Some people are not capable of believing in what they cannot see or touch, other's can and do.

Quote from: peky on June 22, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
Life is funny until you die

Kia Ora my dear friend Peky,

Then why waste it, why not enjoy every minute of it, like I do 

On a more serious note (And yes I do do serious-  well on the odd occasion  ) on whose authority do you assert this Peky ? Do you have a direct line to the afterlife ? ( Question = Part joking - part very very serious... well almost  )

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Shantel on June 22, 2013, 08:16:15 PM
Some people are not capable of believing in what they cannot see or touch, other's can and do.

I wouldn't say that they were devoid of the gift of faith for that reason.  To take a Christian interpretation, they say that all are capable of knowing the existence of god. I'm sure most faiths share the same belief.  What is at play is how people perceive the world and interpret it.  Most religions would claim the lack of knowledge stems from the individual not God making some incapable in believing.  Maybe, I'm wrong in that.  Are there religions or denominations that teach that people are born without the ability to have faith?  I've never encountered that before, but I could be wrong as there are so many different religious beliefs. 

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 22, 2013, 08:21:56 PM
Kia Ora my dear friend Peky,

Then why waste it, why not enjoy every minute of it, like I do 

On a more serious note (And yes I do do serious-  well on the odd occasion  ) on whose authority do you assert this Peky ? Do you have a direct line to the afterlife ? ( Question = Part joking - part very very serious... well almost  )

Metta Zenda

Well can't you still enjoy every minute of life and believe in a God?  I don't see how that would nullify anything. 

Quote from: learningtolive on June 22, 2013, 08:26:48 PM
Well can't you still enjoy every minute of life and believe in a God?  I don't see how that would nullify anything.

Kia Ora L,

I was more or less generalising about 'life' and why waste it, meaning why spend time worrying about what's going to happen to you in a 'afterlife' (If there is such a place)...And no I'm not advocating people take pleasure in doing unwholesome things to other people as a means of enjoying themselves...

Sure there's nothing to stop theists from enjoying life to the full...However the spanner in the works for many so to speak, is their fear of god and the consequences should they accidentally stray off the path "F-up" one too many times and have hell to pay for it...(bearing in mind some do believe in a form of afterlife where things are not that pleasant and often a permanent abode )

Metta Zenda

Quote from: peky on June 22, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
Life is funny until you die

Peky, I don't understand your reply.  Is that a reference to the eternal torture and damnation that is to be carried out on the non-believing "childeren of god"?

Quote from: Shantel on June 22, 2013, 08:16:15 PM
Some people are not capable of believing in what they cannot see or touch, other's can and do.

Kia Ora Shantel,

Belief...Non Belief... It's all in the mind and has a lot to do with ones conditioning...What seeds were planted and nurtured...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: JessicaH on June 22, 2013, 08:47:55 PM
Peky, I don't understand your reply.  Is that a reference to the eternal torture and damnation that is to be carried out on the non-believing "childeren of god"?

Kia Ora JessicaH,

It's possible that's what Peky was on about...However she could have meant "funny" as in funny=peculiar 'Strange, odd, unusual. ie, life is 'funny'...Still no doubt "She'll Be Back" to explain herself...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 22, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
Kia Ora L,

I was more or less generalising about 'life' and why waste it, meaning why spend time worrying about what's going to happen to you in a 'afterlife' (If there is such a place)...And no I'm not advocating people take pleasure in doing unwholesome things to other people as a means of enjoying themselves...

Sure there's nothing to stop theists from enjoying life to the full...However the spanner in the works for many so to speak, is their fear of god and the consequences should they accidentally stray off the path "F-up" one too many times and have hell to pay for it...(bearing in mind some do believe in a form of afterlife where things are not that pleasant and often a permanent abode )

Metta Zenda

I see what you mean.  However, atheists are just as prone to having anxieties and regret.  Maybe they won't fear god's retribution, but atheists can also overwhelm themselves with regrets and mistakes.  I think it is human to look back on our past actions and mistakes and feel upset with ourselves.  But you are right that religion can add another dimension to that feeling. 

Quote from: learningtolive on June 22, 2013, 09:09:34 PM
I see what you mean.  However, atheists are just as prone to having anxieties and regret.  Maybe they won't fear god's retribution, but atheists can also overwhelm themselves with regrets and mistakes.  I think it is human to look back on our past actions and mistakes and feel upset with ourselves.  But you are right that religion can add another dimension to that feeling.

Kia Ora L,

Anxiety and regrets know no boundaries...The minds of Atheists as well as Theists and Agnostics are often full of  worries...Anxieties about what the future might hold and regrets of past mistakes, both of which have no firm foot hold in 'reality', but we tend to form a pseudo reality around them (creating an illusion)...It's human 'conditioning' that makes one look back on ones mistakes and feel upset with themselves, it's also conditioning which makes one worry about what 'might' happen...

However from what I gather there are the 'confident' atheists who go to they grave harden 'non believers', brain stops functioning no longer conscious... end of story, and there are the confident theists who go to their grave true 'believers', brain stops functioning no longer conscious but their 'soul'(this so called permanent entity that abides within) goes on walkabout in the afterlife, hell, heaven or wherever...Then there are the agnostics who sit on the fence with a bet each way...

In the long run (in a sense) we are all agnostic when it comes to death, nobody knows for sure and that I can say for sure ! 

At death the truth will be known...But to whom will this truth be known?    The big question...

"I'm an atheist till the day I die...then I'm open to offers!"   

Metta Zenda

What is most annoying is the thought "I am master of my own destiny." As if anyone on the face of the earth has any real control over their life or of their future? It is indeed arrogant! 

^ "I am master of my own destiny". Perhaps not arrogant but deluded. Having read Free Will by Sam Harris I am far from convinced I even have even tenuous control over my own thoughts. On another site I was involved in a discussion with a woman who claimed she chose her own religion when I suggested that overwhelmingly everyone's religion (or lack of) is just an accident of birth. I challenged her to find someone who didn't claim to have chosen their own religion.

Quote from: Shantel on June 23, 2013, 10:32:22 AM
What is most annoying is the thought "I am master of my own destiny." As if anyone on the face of the earth has any real control over their life or of their future? It is indeed arrogant! 

Shantel, have you read "The Apology" by Plato?  In it there is a great scene where Socrates confesses "all that I know, is that I know nothing".  On the face of it, it sounds like a foolish quote; however, when examining it further it is one of the most brilliant statements ever written.  The point of the piece is to show that Socrates was more wise than all the other Athenians, not because he knew more, but because he admitted and accepted his ignorance.  While all the others claimed to have all the answers, Socrates searched for the truth.  If he had to wade in ignorance until he reached that point, so be it.  I think there is a good lesson in that.  People of all different religions, ideologies and schools of though, etc, all claim they know the truth and have all the answers.  Personally, I find that suspect.  I don't think  anyone can claim definitely that they have the answers to all of life's secrets and now the answer to all of life's dilemma's. That is true arrogance in my opinion.  And the dogmatic individuals that cling to a school of thought without being open to other possibilities (be they atheist or religious) are doomed to  subject themselves to flawed thinking.   

Personally, that is why I find organized religion so questionable.  It's not a matter of arrogance, but rather admitted ignorance and being humble to the fact that we don't know everything.  I'd rather search for the truth and find it, then to submit to a falsity for the sake of appeasing others.  If there is a god and he has planned my fate, okay.  I will accept it if it can be proven to me.  If there is no god, but I still lack true free will, okay.  If there isn't a god and I do have free will, that's fine too.  I can live my life either way and find piece of mind no matter the answer.  What I will say is that I find it doubtful that the master of the universe created a path for each human.  The universe is so vast that I can't imagine the creator cares about defining the life of a car mechanic with a spouse or kids (not me, but just an example of everyday people).  Perhaps that is the truth, but I would need something to prove that claim.  Having said that, I am always open to learning and being shown the errors in my thinking. I do know that there are many theories circulating around that free will is an illusion.  If that's true, then it would be interesting to learn the source of that illusion.  I'm not to proud to believe I don't make mistakes and I'm certainly not arrogant enough to think that I'm infallible and can't make mistakes.  For now, I will live my life and try defeat my ignorance day by day.  However, it is inevitable that I will always fail because it is impossible to be all knowing. 

Quote from: sentience on June 23, 2013, 10:44:00 AM
^ "I am master of my own destiny". Perhaps not arrogant but deluded. Having read Free Will by Sam Harris I am far from convinced I even have even tenuous control over my own thoughts. On another site I was involved in a discussion with a woman who claimed she chose her own religion when I suggested that overwhelmingly everyone's religion (or lack of) is just an accident of birth. I challenged her to find someone who didn't claim to have chosen their own religion.

I haven't read that book, but I have heard this argument.  I don't care for Sam Harris, as I think he is an extremist (the whole genocidal suggestion in the "End of Faith").  I bought a book on this topic by a neuroscientist and haven't gotten around to it.  Maybe, I'll read that today. What is the view as to why we don't have free will from Harris' perspective?  I'd be interested to hear. 

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 22, 2013, 08:21:56 PM
Kia Ora my dear friend Peky,

Then why waste it, why not enjoy every minute of it, like I do 

On a more serious note (And yes I do do serious-  well on the odd occasion  ) on whose authority do you assert this Peky ? Do you have a direct line to the afterlife ? ( Question = Part joking - part very very serious... well almost  )

Metta Zenda

My post come from some rather somber combat times when I so soldiers -atheists or not- pleading with G-d not to let them die....

...I do not remember where I heard, I think it was in a song, the saying that goes like this: "Nobody know until the day they die" that is where I derive the: "life is funny until you die"

Of course they does not apply to the faithful, to folks who believe in G-d...

BTW I do not understand why you found my post IS

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I believe in G-d because I have seen, talked to, and touched and be touched by her...what more prove can I demand?

so offensive...it was just a "testimony"

BTW I have the feeling that your campaign to denied the existence of G-d and to indoctrinate you disfelif in others is possible because your soul has been move by G-d and deep down you cannot help but feel the existence of G-d even if it in the form of a hate for G-d....just my musings

I am not involved in any kind of organized religion for many of the reasons we have been discussing here. However the fact that I'm not religious does not preclude the fact that I espouse the idea that this life is just a hyphen in an eternal journey and is part of an intelligent design. I am a spiritual being but I don't have a need to stuff my beliefs down anyone's throat in fact I am completely free of concerning myself about what others think or feel about such things. This freedom from the controls of others allows me freedom from the worry of "Do I pass?" and all of that other silly mundane stuff, because once this is settled in one's own inner being we can be comfortable in our own skin regardless of circumstances.

Quote from: peky on June 23, 2013, 11:16:39 AM
My post come from some rather somber combat times when I so soldiers -atheists or not- pleading with G-d not to let them die....

...I do not remember where I heard, I think it was in a song, the saying that goes like this: "Nobody know until the day they die" that is where I derive the: "life is funny until you die"

Of course they does not apply to the faithful, to folks who believe in G-d...

BTW I do not understand why you found my post IS so offensive...it was just a "testimony"

BTW I have the feeling that your campaign to denied the existence of G-d and to indoctrinate you disfelif in others is possible because your soul has been move by G-d and deep down you cannot help but feel the existence of G-d even if it in the form of a hate for G-d....just my musings

Fearing death is natural.  It is no way "proof" of God.  No one has a campaign to deny god's existence.  If proven, I will perfectly accept it.  I don't have a dog in this fight either way as an agnostic.  But I won't claim to know something if I really don't.

Free Will by Sam Harris, is a very short book (about 50 pages. Honestly!) with a coherent flow of argument. To be honest, it's quite a while since I read it.  My paraphrasing would be a combination of Chinese whispers, false memory syndrome and old age. Please don't let your understandable reservations regarding Sam Harris put you off this book however. It is very much a stand alone product. In summary though he challenges every aspect of what you may consider having control over any and every aspect of who you are and how it should change our attitude to psychopaths for existence: there should be no condemnation just control so that they don't harm others.......dodgy paraphrasing setting in already. I'll stop.