http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/why-we-shouldnt-call-adrian-bayley-a-monster-20130618-2og5v.html

(Thanks JamieD for supplying the link)

WARNING THIS TALKS ABOUT A RAPE MURDER

Before you open this beware that it deals with an evil man who has raped multiple times and has just been convicted of another rape and murder in Australia.

To be honest I struggle with how to deal with these people.

I know we all have different judicial systems and some will say if he was locked away or executed after his first crime innocent people would not have suffered.

I'm struggling with that, as detailed in a the article.

I'm cursed with being a humanitarian. So I do struggle.

This is, in my opinion, a considered article that deals with crime and justice and retribution.

Please read it and think, then post. I would like discussion not trivialisation.

But read only if you can deal with rape crime.

Remember ToS.

Cindy

Honestly speaking, I see nothing wrong with capital punishment as long as it is humane. The reason being is that some people will never be rehabilited. If someone is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they have commited a horrible crime callously with undisputable proof of that crime, then for the safety for the rest of society capital punishment is OK. If there is any doubt whatsoever, I'm not so keen on capital punishment. It's kind of like I split the fence on the issue though depending upon different circumstances.

Jess,

The message I got was not how to get rid of the last one, but how do we stop the next one?

To be selfish, (aren't we all), I wasn't the innocent walking home. I could have been.

And please no argument about self defence etc.  I want to talk about the problem.

The teem monster makes no difference to the likelihood that society will make changes.  It seems logical but it is simply a term that describes an evil person and anyone can see that. She goes some way to blame this on extreme port,  but u cannot control that.  Really people are going to like kinky stuff,  being tied up blah blah blah,  and it the the job of each person to appreciate the difference between tying them up for consensual pleasure and tying them up then torturing, raping and murdering them. The idea that society made him think that was ok,  is weak and more than a little lenient.  After all even he admitted his crime and said he should be put to death.

Furthermore there is little logic in saying we should not make him out as a monster because people are more likely to trivialise other rapes such as husband and wife.  This *was* really bad,  but not because of the location or people but because of the severity of the crime.  Brutal brutal rape and murder. 

Lastly,  his rehab....  Well the articles point on that is not really directly related to the questions about it,  but still,  I think the author may be right.  There could be chance for rehab for him.

Quote from: Cindy. on June 25, 2013, 09:51:44 AM
Jess,

The message I got was not how to get rid of the last one, but how do we stop the next one?

To be selfish, (aren't we all), I wasn't the innocent walking home. I could have been.

And please no argument about self defence etc.  I want to talk about the problem.

I know you said no arguments about self defense Cindy but that is the one thing that we can do on a personal level. Being vigilant to your surroundings, what is going on and what you may be able to use as weapon to stave off an attack are all good things to practice. If you are vigilant enough, you will never have to use self defense. You can vacate an area before the predator pounces.

On a social point, I don't know if there is an answer. In the US we have a lot of states that have the death penalty and it does very little to deter capital crimes. Even if we could read minds or scan brains and pick out the people that do commit these crimes, if they haven't commited the crime we can't just lock them away because they in fact may never commit the crimes. And then there's people that just snap. I really think that the only way to prevent things like this is our own self vigilance and looking out for one another.

From the beginning of time there have been violent nut jobs.  How can we stop them from occurring? We can't. 

There is such a perverse rape culture in the world.  We teach girls to "not get raped", but we don't seem to teach boys "don't rape".  It is time to teach the children that rape is not a proper way to relate to one another.

Would it work?  We will not know till we try.  As for the death penalty.  It is society getting revenge on the perpetrator.  It does not deter crime.  Unfortunately it is the same as gun laws, criminals don't care about the laws.

Serial criminals will not be rehabilitated.  They are what they are.

Over here in the UK there are "don't rape people"  adverts on TV.  It's awful.  Really,  it's not like people don't know *surely* plus it makes it look like you shouldn't trust being around men if they have to have an advert to tell them,  'hey,  if someone says no,  maybe u should,  like,  not forcibly have sex with them?'.  How does that make men look?  How safe do u feel with Ur kids around them in playgrounds if we are mass marketing 'not rape'?  What next? Maybe they could incentivise it with a 'not rape'  loyalty card and a badge that says 'I am not a rapist and proud'.  It's ridiculous.  I think everyone knows it's wrong,  no?  I mean,  it's not like I have been anywhere where it would be ok for people to say "had a great time committing acts of rape last night,  whoop!"  people know that it's not acceptable. I don't think a "by the way,  sexual abuse is not on" leaflet would have stopped the person tho did it to me anyways.

I would say we need to focus on "don't get raped".  To do otherwise would be like trying to say we shouldn't have to teach people to secure their home,  we should teach people not to steal.

I'm about to head out to a domestic violence workshop but can share a couple of thoughts off the top of my head..

A few weeks ago Florida executed Elmer Carroll for a similar crime involving a 10 year old girl in Apopka County in 1990.

It was his third such offence involving children and came whilst he was being rehabilitated after his second, for which he served seven years from a 15 year sentence.

I'm not by any means in favour of the death penalty. But if you want a mature and civil society you have to accept that some people lack the morality or decency to live freely in that society and these are people who need to be permanently excluded from society for the benefit and welfare of others.

Secondly I think another measure would be the complete criminalization of pornography. All of it. Let the organized criminals handle it. All of it. Whatever. Just as long as it isn't legal or seen as socially acceptable.

Thirdly the media needs to accept that it shares some responsibility for what goes on in society. Promoting "literature" such as 50 Shades of Grey and romanticizing an abusive relationship as BDSM just doesn't cut it. None of these novels have got anything to do with BDSM. The writer made a quick buck out of kinky sex and nobody took the responsibility for the cultural effects.

That's all I have to offer right now but I might be further inspired by this domestic violence workshop.

There is no way that porn should be illegal. It might be distasteful, but what is art and what is porn? Where does the boundary of censorship on nudity and sex lie? To ban a porn mag for example, you would effectively have to ban publications of nudity and the same for film. I know films, books, photographs and artwork that do these things responsibly and tastefully.

It may be distasteful, but it is much more distasteful to place such stringent censorship on any form of media such that nudity and sex could not be portrayed. I also think that doing so would set people back in accepting that sex can be normal and creates shame about sex and one's body.

Also, organised crime rings aren't known for their responsible approach to their markets, so you could count on *a lot* worse treatment of those people involved and worse products.

No, for me it's education over censorship and denial always.

Thanks for posting this, Cindy. I like stuff that makes me think.

Re how do you sentence someone to avoid recidivism:

We'd like to think our judges and psychiatrists are wise enough to evaluate who will reoffend and must be locked up for life and who can be rehabilitated. It's just not true. Human nature is too opaque and the future is too uncertain to do this reliably. So we need to accept that whatever direction we bend in, injustice will be done. Be too lenient, someone will reoffend horribly. Be too strict, and a redeemable person will be given an unnecessarily harsh sentence.

I tend to slice along the lines of "did this person know that this was wrong and could they have avoided it." If yes, than the sentence is really their choice, and I don't have too many qualms being harsh. If no, then I'd lean toward giving them a chance.

Re the death penalty:

I hate it.

* Mercy is a virtue. Mercy means you don't kill or injure someone if you don't have to. If you can imprison someone for life and thereby protect society, than you don't kill him. Mercy says nothing about the person being spared and everything about the person doing the sparing.

* It tends to be a slippery slope. If you execute a murderer, why not rapists? OTOH if you executed all rapists, would I be included? When I was 19 and a sophomore in college, my girlfriend was a 17-year-old freshman and we slept together consensually. In some localities that would be considered rape.

Re pornography:

Is it possible that pornography prevents crime? Maybe by giving people with dangerous urges an outlet that they would otherwise have to offend to satisfy?

I really don't believe there's a way to stop the next one, only to protect the potential victims. Not everybody that commits a horrific crime has a history of entanglements with the law, so how do you identify them? I really don't believe that someone learns to behave this way. I believe it's ingrained in them. And we all know how well society does in attempting to condition someone to be something they're not. Fear of the consequences only holds one at bay for so long.

Like others have said, there's really no way to prevent future crimes. I agree with Jess that people need to remain vigilant and be prepared to protect themselves from strangers and even loved ones. Sure, it's sad that you always need to be prepared, and that sometimes your fight won't be successful, but even with education and deterrents, some people just don't care about the consequences or they are mentally ill or impaired (anyone seen Fritz Lang's M?).

I think a few things could possibly help: 1) greater education and investment in psychology -- if people could afford to send their children or themselves to therapy if they feel there's something off balance (and be better educated on warning signs), maybe people like the one in the article and the kid who shot Gabby Giffords and the Newton children, etc. would've been treated for whatever was going on in their heads and the crimes wouldn't have occurred. Also related, health insurance should provide better coverage for therapy and mental health medications; 2) having a culture that is more respectful to all people -- like others said, ads on TV are probably not the best idea since I think an ad won't be taken very seriously. This would work best if on a family by family/school by school basis more respect and equality for females (or other "undesirables") are shown. Hopefully with more women in the workplace and slowly coming to more powerful positions, things will change.

Though, I think some people, like Bayley there, would be a predator even with education or a culture of respect/equality of genders. The best bet to preventing crime with people like him is probably seeing any warning signs and helping him to see a therapist before any rapes/murders occurred. I think sometimes friends/families are too afraid to bring loved ones to mental health treatment due to the stigma, expense, fear of the loved one becoming angry with them, etc.

I also don't think banning pornography or sexy books is the way to go, since people will just find another way to satisfy their desires/curiosity. Many people look at porn or read those books but don't commit heinous acts of violence against others. There are countries in the world where porn is banned and it is censored on the internet, but people get things through the black market and there is still plenty of rapes and sexual abuse in those countries.