So I think this is more than a little embarrassing but I'm having two strong urges right now that seem to be coinciding and contridictory. I still want to and probably plan to start testosterone and transition to being a man, but I also have this odd desire to abandon all defense and have unprotected sex with some cisguy, get pregnant, have his kid and raise a kid. I don't know why I'm thinking about this now, and I feel like it condradicts a lot and maybe I should just go ahead and go with the transition but forget about the sex thing because how do you explain that to your kid? At the risk of sounding offensive do any of you find this morally wrong or irresponsible? I haven't even started testosterone yet but I'm having another odd experience where since I started dressing all in guys clothes and using a guys name or identifying as a guy more often, it's almost as if my testosterone levels have raised already. I'm sex crazed all of a sudden and I'm acting really macho and wanting to get into fights. What's up with that?

Quote from: Tadpole on June 28, 2013, 07:10:15 PM
---since I started dressing all in guys clothes and using a guys name or identifying as a guy more often, it's almost as if my testosterone levels have raised already. I'm sex crazed all of a sudden and I'm acting really macho and wanting to get into fights. What's up with that?

I feel like that's more psychological than anything. Self-induced. You feel more confident with your "new" appearance, and turning it into cocky. Not necessarily a bad thing. If anything, it could be good. Showing that your medical transition is necessary to your happiness, and feeling complete.

I would have to argue the opposite.  To me it sounds like you don't really know where you belong right now and I'd say you're more gender confused than actually FTM, at least currently.  Maybe your desire to get pregnant, something the majority of FTMs find absolutely horrible and the stuff of nightmares, is your brain's way of telling you you're not ready or perhaps even right for transition.

Your T levels aren't going up on their own.  This macho feeling and wanting to fight isn't what you transition for at all.  In fact honestly, that's kinda stupid!  Becoming a man doesn't mean you want to fight people or be macho.  Men like that are ->-bleeped-<-s!  Don't get me wrong, I like sparring at Taekwon-do and working out, but it's not about wanting to beat people up - that's, quite frankly, bad.  A desire to hurt people isn't admirable or a reason to transition at all; it's a sign that you need help!  There's a big difference between what you're saying and what I'd describe more as self confidence.  Deciding to transition to become a man is different for everyone but essentially it's about not being comfortable being in a female body and desiring to become physically male to conform with a male mind.  So when you bring up feeling like some macho guy and then wanting to get pregnant it suggest you are actually somewhat comfortable in a female body.  That's not the kinda things a typical male mind would experience.  It raises a lot of red flags. 

To me you sound more gender queer and I'd urge you to talk through feeling both these feelings before even approaching the idea of transition, and be SURE to explain both these feelings because you don't want to regret transitioning.  There's changes that are irreversible and once they happen, that's it!

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Men. Don't. Get. Pregnant!

Also, in the interest of trying to be a responsible adult, I cannot condone unprotected sex with "some cisguy".  I mean, come on!

Quote from: Tadpole on June 28, 2013, 07:10:15 PM
do any of you find this morally wrong or irresponsible?

I don't think it's morally wrong, it's just a bit unusual.

As for whether it's irresponsible, you didn't give enough detail for me to say for certain, but I'd be more inclined to say yes, it's irresponsible. That's with the assumption that you are single and do not plan to be in a long-term relationship with the guy who gets you pregnant (resulting in you being a single father later on).

Deciding to have a child, whether by the "traditional" route or via adoption etc, has to be more than just a whim or an emotionally-based choice. It's a big decision, and it's not just about you and what you want. It's about making sure that you can provide for your child in every way (financially, emotionally, etc.) and committing to being the best parent you can be. A lot of people say that deciding to have a kid is a decision that effects you for 18 years (plus pregnancy time, obviously), but it's a lot longer than that: it's a lifetime. If you're not certain about it, or if you cannot accept devoting a good portion of the rest of your life (more so in the growing-up stage, but you'd still need to be there after he or she is an adult) to taking care of your child, then don't do it.

Think of it this way: if your father was deciding whether they wanted to have a kid (you), would you want him to do so without being emotionally or perhaps even financially prepared? Probably not. You'd probably want (assuming you had a choice, in this theoretical example) your father to wait until he was in a long-term relationship with someone so you would have the benefit of having two parents, and to wait until he knew for sure that he could take care of you properly.

Please keep in mind that I'm basing this response on assumptions and that I certainly do not intend to offend you (or to imply that single parents aren't doing a good job; I simply believe that, in most cases, it's better to have a couple raise a child if possible).

As for the testosterone aspect, I would suggest that if you do intend to go through with the pregnancy, don't start on T until after. You'll have to stop being on T anyway during the pregnancy, and though I don't know from personal experience what that's like (pregnancy after T), I do know what it's like to be on T and then have your body revert to estrogen (as I can't afford T anymore and have been off it for over a year). It's not fun. In some ways, it makes life more difficult for me because of how great I felt in comparison to how I feel now without the right hormones; you may have a similar experience if you start T prior to getting pregnant.

Additionally, there is a better chance of a successful pregnancy if you wait until after to start T. Testosterone can reduce fertility levels (or whatever you call it) and, probably depending on how long you're on T before getting pregnant, it could render you sterile.

There are other things to take into account, such as whether you truly believe you can handle the hormonal/physical changes that come with pregnancy, but that stuff's common knowledge so I'm not going to go into detail about it.

Whatever you decide, make sure you really think it out and don't act on impulse or forget about the long-term consequences. Good luck!

Quote from: Jack_M on June 28, 2013, 11:13:51 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Men. Don't. Get. Pregnant!

What about Thomas Beatie? Some cisguys have actually said that if it were biologically possible, they would like to get pregnant (though it's certainly a very small minority who feel that way). It's very unusual, but a desire to get pregnant does not necessarily mean someone's not a man.

Personally, I'm grossed out by the mere thought of "what if I ever got pregnant," (which is not a possibility as I'm single and plan on remaining single until after I've had a hysto, at the very least) but just because I feel that way about my body doesn't mean I judge transguys who feel that pregnancy is something they want to experience.

Yeah there's a lot of controversy over it though, and we saw a little of that here recently too.  I can't and won't ever condone it personally.  If people want to do it, then that's up to them, but IMO, they then don't really fit in the FTM category because men can't get pregnant so it goes against the M part.

It's my 2 cents and people can do what they will with it.  I just don't personally think anyone looking to transition while also fantasising about being pregnant is ready for transition because the feelings described are WAY too polar extremes from having way too overly masculine thoughts to wanting to do the most womanly thing one could do.  At present, that can't be a healthy place to be in.

Quotedo any of you find this morally wrong or irresponsible?

Yes. Creating a child because you feel emotionally vapid right now is the same as those idiot high school girls getting knocked up on purpose because they want to play doll with a living, breathing human being and think that their baby will love them unconditionally.

I thought about getting pregnant and having a kid of my own before I started HRT. I love kids and I was really scared that starting HRT and socially transitioning would make it excruciatingly painful and difficult to adopt or foster. My desire to have children in my life is a very strong emotion and the idea of being denied that because I'm trans AND gay (double whammy) makes me feel ill. I recognized that my interest in getting pregnant was based on fear of the unknown, and that is an incredibly immature, morally wrong, and irresponsible reason to have a kid.

Quote from: Jack_M on June 28, 2013, 11:30:33 PM
IMO, they then don't really fit in the FTM category because men can't get pregnant so it goes against the M part.

You obviously don't read a lot of science fiction...or know the same men I know. I personally have an aversion to the idea of being pregnant, but what's wrong with a guy who wants to do it if it becomes medically possible? Men can be, and are, nurturing in every other way. Why not this one?

With that said, it's quite possible that the OP is nervous about transition (I think most of us are) and is having a kneejerk emotional reaction "the other way." But I would advise careful thought before taking the transition path. Very careful thought.

Alright.

TheoLeo, I think that's fair and I pretty much agree.

Jack M.

I am definitely gender confused, but there's never been a lot that was hyperfeminine about me at all. Ever. It seems like your prevailing attitude is to think I can't trust my own judgement on the matter. I don't know if that was the intention but I feel kind of insulted here. With that said I never really looked at men having to be some kind of hypermasculine macho entity that is really simply how I feel. That's the kind of masculine energy I resonate with. I grew up with two macho brothers, a hyperfeminine mother and a hypermasculine father which really seems kind of rare these days. How could I not be confused?
But yeah, I think that I can repeat myself here by saying I am sex crazed and I was forced into somewhat of a feminine role sexually. Do FTMs just disregard all of that? Are they all asexual or did they live the entirety of their sex lives pre-transition adopting a sexually "masculine" form of identity where they wore strap-ons and were lesbians? And with me being pretransition is it impossible to have some sudden desire to do something I have barely done before in my life because we live in such a birth-control oriented society these days?
Is it weird to want to be a parent (Though I will say with all that said and done I want to be more of a father figure). And yes, I think it's irresponsible, and also I have met FTMs on birth control because they still have a vagina, they still get pregnant if they happen to sleep with a biological male who is not sterile.
And I'm bisexual so it doesn't go away.
Now back to me being sexually confused. Yes, maybe I am, and I was completely aware of the fact that when I wrote this post it would probably cause some kind of controversy.

I find what you said about pregnancy for most FTMs provided interesting as the "stuff of nightmares" and it does cause me to want to think things over a little bit further. However,
It was the stuff of nightmares FOR YEARS as I identified as a closeted and woman but never proud of it. I dealt with all kinds of annoyances from any boyfriend I might have had that thought it was so weird that I didn't want that to happen at all. It freaked me out.
And I am as weirded out as anyone.

I am alone and feel empty sometimes, and I have met men who wanted a kid because they had the exact same feeling just wanted a purpose in life and a new person or two. What's wrong with the picture here I wonder?

I don't think it's unusual or delusional to think it's absolutely possible that my testosterone levels could be elevated and perhaps always were, sorry to be stereotypical but I was always the competive person and had more than a little dysphoria way back to middle school!

My point is, I've thought about it, I've thought about it and I've thought about it some more, I've attempted to go in the opposite direction by acting as feminine as I could (not very) and I felt miserable in that phase trying to do that! I'm acting more masculine now and I feel a lot better!
I've gone through genderqueer identity quite a bit,
I know what it is and I'm not 100% it's enough for me.

So forget about whatever I said, in reality I was fascinating more about unprotected sex than pregnancy and yeah that's messed up, I'm messed up, I will find away or repress it.

Dreaming Forever-

Wow! I'm completely done with that now!
It's really weird because I'm also kind of grossed out with that particular thought in it's context. It makes me want to crawl out of my body!

I think with Thomas Beatie he did what he did and you can't change the past. I think that the kid will probably grow up confused but the biggest element of the confusion will stem from the fact that society still isn't open minded enough to except what happened as a fact of life even though it is a rare reality and as most people will think, kind of an odd one.  When I think about it I don't think it's odd at all. In his case certain elements of his partially still female body functioned as a female body would. He has a male mind but had a female body experience. He really does have the experience of being both a father and a mother. His parenting shift genders!

But I wasn't planning on doing anything irresponsible like that I was simply talking about some odd conflicting urges I was having. I think the responsible thing to do would be again to figure out what I would want more, being a parent in a heterosexual relationship and not going though a transition and remaining kind of gender-confused and miserable, or going through an already semi-started transition completely and abandoning the parenting and irresponsible/casual/unprotected sex idea perhaps indefinitely.
To me the latter sounds like a better idea!

But yeah, I know genderqueer already I have been "genderqueer" for much of my adult life even before I was aware of the terminology.

I still have to talk to the shrink longer about deciding even on whether I would go through with the medical aspects of my transition or if it's really better off for me to identify as a female crossdresser or something along those lines.

And I also could very easily not have access or money for testosterone later in the game, which is probably also something I could think about a little more before (if) I start treatment.


Edit- Arch-

I am very nervous about a lot of things as you've suggested...a large part of being able to go through with a transition is self-acceptance and being okay with being the kind of man I am comfortable with not one that is necessarily stereotyped believe it or not...

Random Roads-
I agree with pretty much everything you have said and appreciate your insight to this topic.
Thanks for the responses everyone!

I am all for someone getting pregnant before starting medical transition. If that is the position you're currently in it would make sense to do it now. Why would someone who wants to be pregnant wait until they're medically transitioning, have to stop T, pump themselves full of female hormones, and deal with society's prejudices while also making a mockery out of transitioning to male? What would be the point of that? If pregnancy is something you're considering maybe you should put off starting T until you get that sorted out.

Do I advise having unprotected sex with a random stranger to get pregnant? Um...no, and if you did I would seriously doubt you have the maturity or responsible nature required to raise another human being. I would advise you to get into therapy to maybe sort some of your feelings out before even considering medical transition.

Good plan Simon, I see a lot of wisdom and sense in what you have written.
Sorry to confuse people. I don't think I was talking about any "random stranger".
I'm pretty crazy but my morals judge that as being an irresponsible thing to do if you do not have the ability to place a child in a semi-loving home. I'm not entirely sure if I think that single parenting is inherently wrong in all aspects though. I've seen some wonderful and caring single mothers (and fathers) out there.

When I was about 21, I got pregnant when my boyfriend raped me and refused to use a condom. I was highly anxious for quite some time while I waited to find out whether I had dodged the bullet. I can't remember whether I missed a bleed, but I bought a home pregnancy kit at the appropriate time and did the test.

I did not want to be pregnant. I did not want to carry a parasite to term even if I was pregnant--I didn't care how many people out there wanted to adopt. Even worse, I had been unemployed for months, I had run through my savings, and I had found a job only in time to buy the pregnancy kit. And yet, when I saw that the test was positive, I was humming the theme from Raiders of the Lost Ark in the shower.

I used my next couple of paychecks to cover my abortion, and I did not regret it one little bit. In fact, I was cracking jokes in the recovery room while half of the other patients were crying. But my partner couldn't forget that for thirty seconds I was so...relieved, I guess, although he didn't read it that way...that I was humming triumphant music in the shower.

We all get a bit irrational at times, especially when the stakes are high. My shower behavior didn't make sense to me then and doesn't make sense to me now.

Unless you go and do it, THINKING about doing it is not at all morally wrong. Nothing you THINK is morally wrong. ACTING is. I don't know what it means. I never felt like that. I don't know what to make of it, but I think it could have one of several meanings.

--Jay

Quote from: Jack_M on June 28, 2013, 11:13:51 PM
I would have to argue the opposite.  To me it sounds like you don't really know where you belong right now and I'd say you're more gender confused than actually FTM, at least currently.  Maybe your desire to get pregnant, something the majority of FTMs find absolutely horrible and the stuff of nightmares, is your brain's way of telling you you're not ready or perhaps even right for transition.

Your T levels aren't going up on their own.  This macho feeling and wanting to fight isn't what you transition for at all.  In fact honestly, that's kinda stupid!  Becoming a man doesn't mean you want to fight people or be macho.  Men like that are ->-bleeped-<-s!  Don't get me wrong, I like sparring at Taekwon-do and working out, but it's not about wanting to beat people up - that's, quite frankly, bad.  A desire to hurt people isn't admirable or a reason to transition at all; it's a sign that you need help!  There's a big difference between what you're saying and what I'd describe more as self confidence.  Deciding to transition to become a man is different for everyone but essentially it's about not being comfortable being in a female body and desiring to become physically male to conform with a male mind.  So when you bring up feeling like some macho guy and then wanting to get pregnant it suggest you are actually somewhat comfortable in a female body.  That's not the kinda things a typical male mind would experience.  It raises a lot of red flags. 

To me you sound more gender queer and I'd urge you to talk through feeling both these feelings before even approaching the idea of transition, and be SURE to explain both these feelings because you don't want to regret transitioning.  There's changes that are irreversible and once they happen, that's it!

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Men. Don't. Get. Pregnant!

Also, in the interest of trying to be a responsible adult, I cannot condone unprotected sex with "some cisguy".  I mean, come on!

I very strongly disagree with this idea. Just becuase he wants to get pregnant should not have any affect on his identity as a man. I love kids and if I could get pregnant I probably would. It would be great to continue my genes and have a little chuck running around. And I know quite a few guys who were born with normal penises who wuld get pregnant if they could. Be sure to tell thomas Beattie that you dont think he is a man.

whats the difference between saying "men dont get pregnant" and "men dont have vaginas" "men dont have a uterus" ??

To the OP - truthfully - if you are ready for a kid (financially and emotionally) and ready to be a parent (maybe even a single parent) and ready to explain to that kid that you had random sex and that you dont know who his father is, then Yeah, go for it. I think it would be wiser to find a willing friend.

Quote from: dreaming.forever on June 28, 2013, 11:24:40 PM
Some cisguys have actually said that if it were biologically possible, they would like to get pregnant (though it's certainly a very small minority who feel that way).

I've heard cis guys say that as well. But it's easy to say they'd do something when there's zero chance of it happening. I bet the number of cis guys who'd actually go through with it is a lot smaller than those who think it'd be awesome in theory. So, I think you're right that it's a very small minority who say this to begin with and and an even smaller minority who would actually suffer labor pains when presented with the option. Not picking on this post or thread in particular, I just see this argument a lot. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with the OP's desires, I just don't think what a handful of cis guys say they'd do has anything to do with ftm pregnancy.

As to the OP, I don't think it's a moral question. But I think there needs to be a lot of soul searching and planning before going into this. And if you really want to have a baby, it'd probably be best if you do so before transition.

Quote from: Jack_M on June 28, 2013, 11:13:51 PM
I would have to argue the opposite.  To me it sounds like you don't really know where you belong right now and I'd say you're more gender confused than actually FTM, at least currently.  Maybe your desire to get pregnant, something the majority of FTMs find absolutely horrible and the stuff of nightmares, is your brain's way of telling you you're not ready or perhaps even right for transition.

Your T levels aren't going up on their own.  This macho feeling and wanting to fight isn't what you transition for at all.  In fact honestly, that's kinda stupid!  Becoming a man doesn't mean you want to fight people or be macho.  Men like that are ->-bleeped-<-s!  Don't get me wrong, I like sparring at Taekwon-do and working out, but it's not about wanting to beat people up - that's, quite frankly, bad.  A desire to hurt people isn't admirable or a reason to transition at all; it's a sign that you need help!  There's a big difference between what you're saying and what I'd describe more as self confidence.  Deciding to transition to become a man is different for everyone but essentially it's about not being comfortable being in a female body and desiring to become physically male to conform with a male mind.  So when you bring up feeling like some macho guy and then wanting to get pregnant it suggest you are actually somewhat comfortable in a female body.  That's not the kinda things a typical male mind would experience.  It raises a lot of red flags. 

To me you sound more gender queer and I'd urge you to talk through feeling both these feelings before even approaching the idea of transition, and be SURE to explain both these feelings because you don't want to regret transitioning.  There's changes that are irreversible and once they happen, that's it!

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Men. Don't. Get. Pregnant!

Also, in the interest of trying to be a responsible adult, I cannot condone unprotected sex with "some cisguy".  I mean, come on!

Well, it's wrong, so please don't say it on this site again.

Seriously, if you're not in a position where you can care for your kid, then don't have one.  My parents weren't prepared to have me when they did, my mother was on birth control, and they were aiming to have a child a couple of years down the line.  If their plan had worked out I think the child which was born then would have had a much better childhood than I did.  They might have loved me, but they simply weren't ready.  It could just be a knee jerk reaction to knowing that if you start T when your chances of having a child with your DNA in it is could be impossible.  After all, we're animals, it's part of nature for animals to reproduce.  It doesn't necessarily mean that you really want a kid.  And to frank, having a kid on a whim and nearing a stressful time of your life (transitioning) seems pretty irresponsible to me, especially if it's with a random person and you'll be a single parent.  I'm not saying that all single parents are bad parents, just that it's less than ideal and puts a lot more pressure on you, how do you juggle having an income and childcare for example?

As for thinking your T levels have raised naturally, probably just an increase in confidence from finding and presenting as who you should be.  If that's the case then it's another cause to pause for thought on the pregnancy thing, presenting male isn't going to work very well with 8 pounds of baby sticking out your front.  And if you're going around trying to pick fights people are going to think you're a prick.  Just saying.

I'm not in your head and it's just a guess, of course, but it sounds like the "unprotected sex" part is more about a desire to take risks and try new things, and the childrearing thing is about finding or creating a loving family and combating loneliness. All of those are appropriate feelings during transition. There are lots of new frontiers, and lots of scary new dangers and usually a great deal of loss, especially regarding people close to you. There are many ways to express, experience, and (if desired) manage those feelings.

Unless the physical aspect of being pregnant itself is what is attractive, childrearing and immediate physical transition are entirely compatible. You can have your eggs frozen for the future and implanted in a partner or surrogate, or you can adopt or foster a child later when you feel ready. Childrearing isn't a now-or-never proposition, and many people are very happy raising children to whom they have no genetic link.

In regard to the questioning of your gender identity, you don't have to get an A on the Trans Exam to want to transition. You can transition in certain ways and not others, or hold on to certain parts of your gender experience that other people abhor, because your gender is yours. The entire point of going through any kind of gender transition is to assert your own identity, not to get yelled at by a different dictator because you're tired of the old one.

Edited to add: Kate Bornstein's My Gender Workbook would be a great read if you can get a copy of it, as well as Gender Outlaws: The Next Generation, which she co-edited with S. Bear Bergman.

Quote from: Jack_M on June 28, 2013, 11:13:51 PM
Your T levels aren't going up on their own.  This macho feeling and wanting to fight isn't what you transition for at all.  In fact honestly, that's kinda stupid!  Becoming a man doesn't mean you want to fight people or be macho.

I can agree with this part. I think "confused" on the general whole would be the best way to label this situation. Many conflicting thoughts/feelings. I've noticed a correlation between trans guys who over-compensate with the macho fighting attitude, and those who de-transition.

OP, if you do go through with medically transitioning, make sure it's for the right reasons.

Quote from: Tadpole on June 28, 2013, 07:10:15 PM
So I think this is more than a little embarrassing but I'm having two strong urges right now that seem to be coinciding and contridictory. I still want to and probably plan to start testosterone and transition to being a man, but I also have this odd desire to abandon all defense and have unprotected sex with some cisguy, get pregnant, have his kid and raise a kid. I don't know why I'm thinking about this now, and I feel like it condradicts a lot and maybe I should just go ahead and go with the transition but forget about the sex thing because how do you explain that to your kid? At the risk of sounding offensive do any of you find this morally wrong or irresponsible? I haven't even started testosterone yet but I'm having another odd experience where since I started dressing all in guys clothes and using a guys name or identifying as a guy more often, it's almost as if my testosterone levels have raised already. I'm sex crazed all of a sudden and I'm acting really macho and wanting to get into fights. What's up with that?

I was in the exact same spot 2-3 years ago. It was before I cut my hair short and I was working this mountain resort job with a bunch of 20 something's like me from all over North and South America. I was pretending to be straight because it was Utah and I was having an identity crisis. And for some reason I had this crazy strong urge to have a kid. I was incredibly lonely and wanted to be a parent. To have a child that I would love and who would love me unconditionally. I figured I would just one night stand it with a decent guy I worked with then never tell him so he would move far away and I could be my kids daddy. I realized quickly i wasn't willing to sleep with a guy though, and pregnancy is something I want for my future wife, not me. But I seriously felt like I was going to do it. I just want to be a parent so freaking badly. And I've always wanted to be a young dad.