I got one of my oldest friends seriously ?!$$ed off at me today.

I talked to her about the issue of whether our divorce coach is biased because she assumed that my kids would be better off with my wife because she is cis-gendered. (If you want some light reading: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,143508.0.html.)

Friend answered that the assumption isn't biased, because a kid would be better off not having a transgender parent. Having a transgender parent would be difficult.

I didn't take it well and I got argumentative. (I tend to do that. A very unpleasant trait.) I asked her whether people with physical disabilities would not be as good parents as able-bodied parents because having a parent with a disability would be tough. Is everything that makes a kid's life hard bad for him/her? And what about the studies that found that children raised by LGBT parents do just as well as children raised by non-queer parent?

She said she didn't want to argue with me (I don't blame her) and the conversation got very awkward very fast. I apologized and told her I'm having a hard time dealing with certain triggers and the topic of whether I'm an unsuitable parent because I'm transitioning apparently has become one of those triggers. I'm in an emotionally raw place (what with losing my wife, my family, going through a gender transition and a divorce, etc.) She didn't seem especially receptive to my apology.

Our rapport had already been strained from a couple months ago when she told me she thought I was selfish for remaining at my place of employment (also the school my 16-year-old daughter) attends. She had brought it up earlier in today's phone call ("it doesn't seem you really want my advice") which I denied, but now I'm wondering whether I'm turning into someone who only want people around them who agree all the time.

There's no shortage of people who are willing to tell me my decisions are bad and that I'm not a fit parent. I've taken what they've all said seriously and really thought carefully about it. But having weighed all the facts, what I might really need from my friends, whether they agree or disagree, is some support for the decisions I've ended up making. Or at the very least, support for the thought that has gone into making them.

What happens when my friends are unwilling to give me that support?

I'm going through friends the way an Indy racer goes through tires.

---

Humble request: I'm posting because I'm pretty bummed at the moment. I will kindly ask that this not be turned into a thread about the ways in which it is bad for kids to be raised by a transgender parent.

That's an interesting point.  I see where she is coming from in that, if your children had a problem with your gender identity issues, it could be difficult for them to get used to, but even that isn't a bad thing.  But to assume that is the overarching deciding factor for who the kids should be with is silly.  Being transgendered has its benefits too in that you would make a parent very sensitive to any kind of gender or sexuality difficulties the kids might go through and you would have seen the world from two perspectives.

It's tough to have negativity in your life like that, and it's not selfish to want some support.  I can see how easy it might be to lose friends, but stay positive - The ones who show compassion are going to be your friends for years to come.  You'll do without the rest just fine

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 29, 2013, 01:27:32 PM

Friend answered that the assumption isn't biased, because a kid would be better off not having a transgender parent. Having a transgender parent would be difficult.

So, when will you be giving this creep the punch in the face it so desperately deserves?

Or at the very least, telling it to go away and let the adults deal with things?

When you ask for advice, it's not like you're asking for directions, or commands. You simply wanted another perspective.

The person giving the advice should understand that you may, or may not, follow it...and not take it personally if you don't. Now if you were to keep asking advice about the same problem...yes her response would be appropriate, for that specific issue.

Being trans and transitioning does not, in itself, make you a bad parent.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 30, 2013, 11:46:33 AM
When you ask for advice, it's not like you're asking for directions, or commands. You simply wanted another perspective.

Well, strictly speaking I didn't not ask her for advice. I was just telling her about my misgivings about my divorce coach.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 30, 2013, 11:46:33 AM
The person giving the advice should understand that you may, or may not, follow it...and not take it personally if you don't.

Thanks for this.

The problem is I'm the one who took it personally (though how else do you take it when a close friend tells you it would be a good thing if your kid doesn't live with you?) She only took exception when I started arguing with her.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 30, 2013, 11:46:33 AMBeing trans and transitioning does not, in itself, make you a bad parent.

Well, she didn't come out and say that. What she said was that my kids would be better off with my wife because I'm transgender and it's tough to be with a transgender parent.

Quote from: Andaya on June 29, 2013, 01:59:01 PM
It's tough to have negativity in your life like that, and it's not selfish to want some support.  I can see how easy it might be to lose friends, but stay positive - The ones who show compassion are going to be your friends for years to come.  You'll do without the rest just fine

Thank you for the support. This woman is one of my oldest friends, and I really don't want to put distance between us, but the discussions we're having about my transition seemed to get emotionally charged.

Quote from: spacial on June 30, 2013, 10:49:13 AM
Or at the very least, telling it to go away and let the adults deal with things?

Thanks for the support Spacial. I really don't want her to go away. I don't have very many friends and value the one's I have, but I'm really distressed at how this friendship has gotten so strained.

In situations like this I always remember that opinions are like belly buttons.  Everyone has one, but many don't hold water.

And yes I cleaned it up.  I would say your divorce "coach" is like most of those in the family services divisions.  They do not have the child's best interest at heart.  They always side with the mother.  Even if she is a proven drug user.  It takes a lot for them to award children to the "father".

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 29, 2013, 01:27:32 PM

---

Humble request: I'm posting because I'm pretty bummed at the moment. I will kindly ask that this not be turned into a thread about the ways in which it is bad for kids to be raised by a transgender parent.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 30, 2013, 11:59:07 AM
Thanks for the support Spacial. I really don't want her to go away. I don't have very many friends and value the one's I have, but I'm really distressed at how this friendship has gotten so strained.

The support you get here, including from me, is unconditional.

But if this were me, and I'm just saying, for the record, I would be taking those comments as suggesting that I am less capable of being a parent because of who and/or what I am.

I wouldn't stand for that for a second. No-one would ever question as a parent. The other parent may have some place to comment, but never, not for a second, would I ever accept an outsider has any place to comment, no matter who, what or anything else they are.

Just saying.

I'm with Janet on this - the person gave an opinion and you can either accept or reject it; after all it's just one persons opinion. I do believe that what was said gave you insight into the person's thinking and whether or not that person should remain on your friend list going forward.

Your words and actions here on the board show that you are a super caring parent and your kids need you. Don't stand for anything less - you haven't done anything wrong.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 29, 2013, 01:27:32 PM
What happens when my friends are unwilling to give me that support?

What friends?

A person either supports you and is your friend or does not support and it is not your friend.


What is you daughter position on you staying and transition at her HS?

Friends are suppose to be their for support but they can't just choose your side on such a critical issue as this!!

I cannot imagine this happening to myself, since I and even my ex know I am a very involved parent. I am in the same boat somewhat, but I am divorced.

In order to argue for one side of an issue, one must also look at the other side. Your one statement I have made into a null statement stating quite the opposite. "because a kid would be better off not having a transgender parent. Having a transgender parent would be difficult easier.

I think when you look at both sides and think of it from your daughters point of view...people arguing against you do have some valid points.

I currently have children in school and have my children 50/50....as they progress further in their education it becomes more and more difficult. I am letting them handle situations the best they see fit...at times they may say things that confuse people even more...I tell them how to word things so when it comes up again they will know better as to what to say.

I think the white elephant in the room is the fact you are a teacher at your daughters school, and.....she's a girl!!! Do you know how cruel girls can be to one another...and that's to girls that don't have a transgendered parent!

I have learned one important thing through my divorce and transition...and that is humility!! It's easier to accept humility if it's for the ones you love. Humility is the total opposite of revenge...but the outcome is so much better....it just may take a bit longer. I am viewed by many now, as a good parent even though nothing has changed about me (well...one thing!). Sometimes teachers and others respect me even more because of the courage I have shown my children...I don't necessarily like this...I want to be respected as a parent because I am an involved and caring one. My transgendered status should not make me appear positive nor should I be viewed negatively. Unfortunately the negative happens more...this is where humility comes in.

Good luck....stay true to your children!!

Why does venting sound so much like asking for advice to most people?

Anyway, I don't see how you handled this badly.  You acted like most people would I would say.

You don't lose any friends going through this process, but you do filter out all the non-friends and sometimes that leaves you with a small social circle after all is said and done.  Then you just have to build up a new one with people who love you just how you are.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 30, 2013, 11:59:07 AM
Well, strictly speaking I didn't not ask her for advice. I was just telling her about my misgivings about my divorce coach.

*harrumph!*

[ coldly]Well, if you don't want my advice...[ /coldly]

ROFL   

Quote from: peky on June 30, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
What friends?

A person either supports you and is your friend or does not support and it is not your friend.


What is you daughter position on you staying and transition at her HS?

Give Peky a gold star for this.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 29, 2013, 01:27:32 PM
I got one of my oldest friends seriously ?!$$ed off at me today.

I talked to her about the issue of whether our divorce coach is biased because she assumed that my kids would be better off with my wife because she is white.

Friend answered that the assumption isn't biased, because a kid would be better off not having a black parent. Having a black parent would be difficult.

I decided to put this to my own personal test, this time using skin colour - you can also use stuff like able-bodied/disabled, rich/poor, and so on.

Not that this of course is the most important issue.

Prior to the divorce there was a complete family unit. There was security, there was support, and all the things which have been in place for the kids right through their childhood.

This is no longer the case. This is how I'm assuming both kids see the situation based on what is the most important to them. It's kind of like returning home one day and finding all your furniture and possessions dumped outside. It kind of throws you off balance, turns your life upside down, and you start wondering what's going to happen next and you might have difficulties relating to people.

I see being trans and transitioning as a completely separate issue from the divorce. You could have come out and be starting your transition with the marriage intact and still be experiencing some of the same issues you do now. It doesn't change you as a person, nor does it change your abilities as a person. All that's changed is that you've become a walking, talking example of gender equality which some people have a hard time accepting.

I'm actually surprised that the divorce coach is able to form any definite opinion as to who would be the most suitable parent at this current stage in the proceedings, especially as both kids would be struggling to relate to both parents.

I wouldn't feel so bad about what's happened. Like we've discussed early transition is a very steep learning curve which leaves you vulnerable from many angles at a time when you have to get your [word begins with the letter 's'] together PDQ in a second gender identity.

People say and do things which can leave you feeling defensive and being quite raw and insecure your emotions often reach your mouth quicker than your brain does.

However when you have a 'friend' trying to tell you that a biased statement isn't biased, then you have to stop and think about where their loyalties really lie.

Quote from: Jen on June 30, 2013, 04:54:41 PM
Why does venting sound so much like asking for advice to most people?

What happens when my friends are unwilling to give me that support?

She may have been venting...but there was a question asked!!

I answered humility!! may have token the long way there and gave some other thoughts...but I feel I did answer a questioned that was asked!!

Quote from: Jen on June 30, 2013, 04:54:41 PM
Why does venting sound so much like asking for advice to most people?

You're so right about this observation. My friend thinks she's doing me a great service by giving the advice I'm getting. I learned a long time ago to make sure someone is really looking for advice before giving it, and even then it's a last resort if I'm sure whomever couldn't figure it out on her own.

I'm not sure my friend has the emotional IQ to understand this. Doesn't make her a bad friend, but I need to learn that this will be her reaction, and most importantly, I need to react to it in such a way that doesn't get on her nerves.

Quote from: Jen on June 30, 2013, 04:54:41 PM
Anyway, I don't see how you handled this badly.  You acted like most people would I would say.

Thanks, Jen. It feels good to hear this.

Maybe I didn't handle it badly, but I bet there would have been a way to field the unwelcome advice without making everything amazingly awkward.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on June 30, 2013, 12:25:52 PM
In situations like this I always remember that opinions are like belly buttons.  Everyone has one, but many don't hold water.

:)ROtFL

Quote from: peky on June 30, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
A person either supports you and is your friend or does not support and it is not your friend.

Good point. In her defense, she thinks she is supporting me by helping me see something she thinks I'm missing.

Quote from: peky on June 30, 2013, 04:20:44 PMWhat is you daughter position on you staying and transition at her HS?

She's uncomfortable with it. I'd be uncomfortable too if my father started wearing women's clothes. Or if my father were a different race from me, or if he wore a religious headdress, had an accent, drove a funny looking car, or did any of a billion things that would make him stand out as strange.

Quote from: Just Shelly on June 30, 2013, 04:50:04 PM
I think when you look at both sides and think of it from your daughters point of view...people arguing against you do have some valid points.

You're completely right, Shelly, and I've done a lot of agonizing soul searching, (as in https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,132473.0.html if you want an example of the seemingly endless verbiage generated in the quest to understand this complicated issue).

OTOH, I'm pretty sure one more person repeating the reasons why I've come to the wrong conclusion, really isn't helping much.

Quote from: StellaB on June 30, 2013, 05:18:35 PM
I decided to put this to my own personal test, this time using skin colour - you can also use stuff like able-bodied/disabled, rich/poor, and so on.

This really helps put things into perspective.

Quote from: StellaB on June 30, 2013, 05:18:35 PM
However when you have a 'friend' trying to tell you that a biased statement isn't biased, then you have to stop and think about where their loyalties really lie.

I see what you're saying, but I believe she thinks she's doing the right thing for me and by that being loyal. I don't agree, but I'm not ready to throw away one of my only 20-year-old friendships at this point. I can always do that later if the friendship becomes toxic.

I'm just not sure how to salvage it. She's already sensitive about the issue and irritated at me, so I don't know how I can make this right.

Quote from: Just Shelly on June 30, 2013, 06:40:50 PM


What happens when my friends are unwilling to give me that support?

She may have been venting...but there was a question asked!!

I answered humility!! may have token the long way there and gave some other thoughts...but I feel I did answer a questioned that was asked!!

Oh don't worry, I wasn't talking about you!  Just her friend and a general observation of my own friends and family, mainly.

Quoteote from: peky on Yesterday at 05:20:44 pm
What is you daughter position on you staying and transition at her HS?

[/quote]She's uncomfortable with it. I'd be uncomfortable too if my father started wearing women's clothes. Or if my father were a different race from me, or if he wore a religious headdress, had an accent, drove a funny looking car, or did any of a billion things that would make him stand out as strange.
[/quote]

There are many kids who have parents of different races...I have an adopted African American son and I have never hear him complain about me or his biological parents

I speak with an accent -as you well known- and yes my kids HS classmates have commented but my kids just laugh along..they said I sound like a Russian...no big deal..no cause of shame...

Perhaps is just 'generational perceptiosn"

Quote from: peky on July 01, 2013, 03:13:04 PM

She's uncomfortable with it. I'd be uncomfortable too if my father started wearing women's clothes. Or if my father were a different race from me, or if he wore a religious headdress, had an accent, drove a funny looking car, or did any of a billion things that would make him stand out as strange.


There are many kids who have parents of different races...I have an adopted African American son and I have never hear him complain about me or his biological parents

I speak with an accent -as you well known- and yes my kids HS classmates have commented but my kids just laugh along..they said I sound like a Russian...no big deal..no cause of shame...

Perhaps is just 'generational perceptiosn"

I just used those as examples to illustrate that just because a kid might be uncomfortable with something a parent does, or it's a topic of comment among their peers does not make them "better off" with the other parent.

Your family is a perfect example. Despite all those things above, you've raised your kids well and they are lucky to have you as a parent.

Quote from: suzifrommd on July 01, 2013, 03:57:17 PM
I just used those as examples to illustrate that just because a kid might be uncomfortable with something a parent does, or it's a topic of comment among their peers does not make them "better off" with the other parent.

Your family is a perfect example. Despite all those things above, you've raised your kids well and they are lucky to have you as a parent.

We have our moments, and they (the kids) had some rough times at the school but we talk and talk and talk...sharing the grieve and pain made us stronger and brought us closer...

Talk to your daughter as much as you can..share your feelings and fears...

All the best