I apologize for posting links to my ramblings all over here, I just don't want to clutter up this website with a novel about how my mind works, and how I see things. I do that enought as it is ;P

Anyway, I saw this rant coming, simply because DOMA was passed and everyone and their brother is against it at my church but me. So, here's my ramblings...
http://seth-in-a-jar.tumblr.com/post/54275693878/and-then-i-died-a-little

Just let me know if I should delete this topic or something. I dunno, I haven't slept for a day, so I'm probably not manking any sense.
Or, at least, less sense than I usually do...

You may love your pastor, but what he is showing is the opposite of love.

FYI, there are many denominations that are supportive of LGBT people. Might they be more worthy of your attendance?

Well, I wish that I could go to attend another church that would accept me. But my parents won't allow me to stay home, or go to another church without their permission, presence, and general approval. THey like our current church.

And yeah...It's kinda hard to like him when he's so harsh about some things, and what bothers me is that he never talks about those in the LGBT community who are still christian and going strong :/ he seems to only focus on the bad, and everyone agrees...

I understand how you feel.  I currently go to a church where my beliefs collide with theirs  but I go because I'm the Sunday School teacher.  I can't drive so it's hard for me to travel to other churches but maybe you can watch church services that are on Justin TV or Youtube.  That's what I do.

I went over to your blog & read what you had to say... you ended with these words:

QuoteI don't know what to think anymore, I love my pastor dearly, but I think some of his arguments are invalid.

As someone who went through a similar epiphany many years ago, I can tell you exactly what's happening to you right now:

You have just realised that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

You've figured out that your pastor is just a regular guy like any other - and he has as much right to be wrong as anyone else does. He might be a great guy but he's dangerously misinformed on many subjects, as you've clearly realised (dangerous because he's influencing impressionable young minds).

If you choose to continue in Christianity, there are many other churches out there that are more enlightened. But please use this epiphany to thoroughly evaluate your values and beliefs before moving forward, and remember that you always have a choice as to what you believe. You don't have to stay in your parents' faith if it doesn't agree with you.

Are your parents (or at least your more-approachable parent) aware that you find your preacher's words to be appalling/hurtful/cruel?  If you can approach one/them with criticism concerning how immoral/wrong/harmful/abusive your church's preaching and its attitudes are, they may be more able to acknowledge that this church isn't right from you.  From a scan of your earlier posting history, it sounds like your mom may be more approachable in this matter, so she may be good to talk to.  If she does not respond well to you, then if you can do so in a way that doesn't come off as a threat, you can matter-of-factly indicate that while she and your dad are legally able to control to do to a great extent, you would rather have a relationship where you can have your thoughts respected and be closer to them, as opposed to wanting to bolt and cut ties as soon as you can afford to -- that ultimately you would much rather have a good relationship with them, but that it is really hard for you to do that when they (and this church) are working so aggressively to control what you think, control how you expression, and deal with "different" people so antagonistically.

I was once told that I'd be going to hell for listening to Ozzy and Black Sabbath by a Catholic Priest.  I don't remember that ever being in the bible.  These people are just as likely to be infallible.  I'm not religious, so my opinion may be considered blasphemous, but these people are not more insightful or knowledgeable than you for the sheer fact that they wear a collar.  I believe the Christian teaching is that only God and his son were the only ones who can judge a sinner because they are the only ones that aren't prone to mistakes.  I'm not in the same camp (agnostic/atheist here), but I would hope they would practice what they preach and stop paying the role of the judge when they aren't fit to exercise that power.

Nonetheless, it is very clear from biblical scripture what the Christian faith believes about homosexuality.  I don't agree with it, but I can't expect them to change their religious views to accommodate what I believe is the right or compassionate thing to do.  He and the rest of his flock have the right to disagree with gay marriage.  What I would say is that he doesn't have the right to enforce his religious views onto others and mandate that his will be followed.  This is a rule of law and the courts have established that Doma was discriminatory and violated the Equal protection and Due process clauses of the 14th amendment.  If he wants to challenge the law morally, fine.  But he cannot dictate that the rest of us follow his moral dictates when we are a nation of laws and not a theocracy.  I thought the purpose of religion was for you to make a conscious decision to follow the will of god, not to force others to do so.  If one feels they are in the wrong, then it is up to god to act as the judge, not the "morally superior" individual.   As long as they are acting within the rule of law and hurting no one else, you can't force them to do your or "god's will".  If they are truly in error, then god will make that judgement in time.  That's what I would tell this self righteous preacher. 

You know, it's strange. The only thing anybody has told me I was going to hell for was playing D&D. I must have been... 13 or 14 at the time, and I don't exactly remember who it was, or how I got there, but these people found out I played D&D, and so they started handing me pamphlets about how it leads to all sorts of murder and drugs and they were afraid for my soul. Then again I haven't come out to the general public so I'm sure I'll get plenty of 'your going to hell' speeches when I do.

Quote from: Shodan on July 01, 2013, 01:52:02 PM
You know, it's strange. The only thing anybody has told me I was going to hell for was playing D&D. I must have been... 13 or 14 at the time, and I don't exactly remember who it was, or how I got there, but these people found out I played D&D, and so they started handing me pamphlets about how it leads to all sorts of murder and drugs and they were afraid for my soul. Then again I haven't come out to the general public so I'm sure I'll get plenty of 'your going to hell' speeches when I do.

Everyone knows that D&D will destroy modern society in due time.  Have you ever met one of those terrifying dungeon masters.  They are the true tyrants of our society.  Watch out if you ever encounter one.   

Thanks guys, for all your help.

Quote from: Malachite on June 30, 2013, 02:49:46 PM
I understand how you feel.  I currently go to a church where my beliefs collide with theirs  but I go because I'm the Sunday School teacher.  I can't drive so it's hard for me to travel to other churches but maybe you can watch church services that are on Justin TV or Youtube.  That's what I do.

Ah, that could work. But, I still have no choice on whether I go to church or not...I guess I could hide out in the halls periodically or something...

Quote from: FTMDiaries on July 01, 2013, 09:35:04 AM
I went over to your blog & read what you had to say... you ended with these words:

As someone who went through a similar epiphany many years ago, I can tell you exactly what's happening to you right now:

You have just realised that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

You've figured out that your pastor is just a regular guy like any other - and he has as much right to be wrong as anyone else does. He might be a great guy but he's dangerously misinformed on many subjects, as you've clearly realised (dangerous because he's influencing impressionable young minds).

If you choose to continue in Christianity, there are many other churches out there that are more enlightened. But please use this epiphany to thoroughly evaluate your values and beliefs before moving forward, and remember that you always have a choice as to what you believe. You don't have to stay in your parents' faith if it doesn't agree with you.

Realizing that the emperor is naked is NOT a pretty sight ;P
I've been drifing away from christianity for a long time now, this was somewhat the straw that broke the camel's back. I've considered other religions, one that are much more...accepting...but the only thing stopping me from leaving the religion or simply changing dominations, is that I've been told that any church accepting gays is "doing it wrong," and leaving the religion once you're baptized is a sin because you've formed a covenant with God, and breaking it will bring doom and destruction to your family, etc.
Which, so far, hasn't really been untrue. My family's been pretty unlucky for the past year ;L

Quote from: Kaelin on July 01, 2013, 12:33:02 PM
Are your parents (or at least your more-approachable parent) aware that you find your preacher's words to be appalling/hurtful/cruel?  If you can approach one/them with criticism concerning how immoral/wrong/harmful/abusive your church's preaching and its attitudes are, they may be more able to acknowledge that this church isn't right from you.  From a scan of your earlier posting history, it sounds like your mom may be more approachable in this matter, so she may be good to talk to.  If she does not respond well to you, then if you can do so in a way that doesn't come off as a threat, you can matter-of-factly indicate that while she and your dad are legally able to control to do to a great extent, you would rather have a relationship where you can have your thoughts respected and be closer to them, as opposed to wanting to bolt and cut ties as soon as you can afford to -- that ultimately you would much rather have a good relationship with them, but that it is really hard for you to do that when they (and this church) are working so aggressively to control what you think, control how you expression, and deal with "different" people so antagonistically.

Well, it's true that my mom is somewhat more approachable when it comes to church and religion-related things, but she tends to be more one-sided, due to the fact that she was a missionary kid until around high-school.
I have the feeling she knows I am unhappy at my church, as it's a bit of a struggle to get me out of the house on Sundays, and when given the choice to go to youth group and help teach with friends, or stay home, I always choose stay home.
But I don't feel that she will be all-too accepting about the fact that I find my pastor's teachings to be offensive. Because, simply put, he is one of the most offensive men you can find on this planet, and he knows it. She would tell me that the point of his messages it to hurt, and correct you. And that if I'm offended by what he's saying, it just means that I'm in the wrong, and need to pray for forgiveness. Not to mention the fact that I am "bound to a covenant" on both sides, and going against that covenant (a.k.a, doing anything worldly, like being Gay or changing genders or even being a different religion or not believing in God) would result in my swift downfall.
While we strive for a good relationship, I think both of my parents know that I am simply too terrified to act against them (due to believing that anyone 5 years older than me is an "adult" and deserves my upmost respect), and only go along with what they tell me to do simply because...well, I "have" to.

Quote from: learningtolive on July 01, 2013, 01:41:51 PM
...I'm not religious, so my opinion may be considered blasphemous, but these people are not more insightful or knowledgeable than you for the sheer fact that they wear a collar.  I believe the Christian teaching is that only God and his son were the only ones who can judge a sinner because they are the only ones that aren't prone to mistakes.  I'm not in the same camp (agnostic/atheist here), but I would hope they would practice what they preach and stop paying the role of the judge when they aren't fit to exercise that power.

Nonetheless, it is very clear from biblical scripture what the Christian faith believes about homosexuality.  I don't agree with it, but I can't expect them to change their religious views to accommodate what I believe is the right or compassionate thing to do.  He and the rest of his flock have the right to disagree with gay marriage.  What I would say is that he doesn't have the right to enforce his religious views onto others and mandate that his will be followed.  This is a rule of law and the courts have established that Doma was discriminatory and violated the Equal protection and Due process clauses of the 14th amendment.  If he wants to challenge the law morally, fine.  But he cannot dictate that the rest of us follow his moral dictates when we are a nation of laws and not a theocracy.  I thought the purpose of religion was for you to make a conscious decision to follow the will of god, not to force others to do so.  If one feels they are in the wrong, then it is up to god to act as the judge, not the "morally superior" individual.   As long as they are acting within the rule of law and hurting no one else, you can't force them to do your or "god's will".  If they are truly in error, then god will make that judgement in time.  That's what I would tell this self righteous preacher. 

You've got a good point there. But, the problem is that the Christian faith also tells us to bring others to the faith. So, while they should practice what they preach, and not judge people, some pastors and even denominations, find that hard to do, because in order to convert people, they must tell the person what they are doing wrong, and persuade them to change.
But, I agree that if someone is truly in error, God will/should fix it in due time, as it is not man's job to tell someone what to do. We are all equal, the only people who should have authority over you is your parents and then, your supervisors.

But AHEKFJG It seems like no one who goes to my church belives the same way I do. Or, if they do, they hide it because they're afraid of being criticized.

Quote from: Shodan on July 01, 2013, 01:52:02 PM
You know, it's strange. The only thing anybody has told me I was going to hell for was playing D&D. I must have been... 13 or 14 at the time, and I don't exactly remember who it was, or how I got there, but these people found out I played D&D, and so they started handing me pamphlets about how it leads to all sorts of murder and drugs and they were afraid for my soul. Then again I haven't come out to the general public so I'm sure I'll get plenty of 'your going to hell' speeches when I do.

I'm not afraid of going to hell, simply because I'd rather be in hell with people I like and share views with, thanliving in heaven where you worship all eternity around people you don't like so much.

LtL, I've been told to sit on the side of D&D games, simply because i want to be the Dungeon Master, and apparently, I'm one of the society-destroying ones ;P

(hope all of this makes at least some sense, sorry it's so long)

Quote from: VenomGaia on July 02, 2013, 12:03:30 AM
Ah, that could work. But, I still have no choice on whether I go to church or not...I guess I could hide out in the halls periodically or something...

Or take a long bathroom break.  Is there a Sunday school you go to in the back?  Usually Sunday school class for younger people are more laid back.  If not or if you are too old, then do you at least have a choice of where to sit?  If so then maybe you could sit at the back of the church and do something else like read comic books.  I speak from personal experience.

Quote from: VenomGaia on July 02, 2013, 12:03:30 AM
I've been drifing away from christianity for a long time now, this was somewhat the straw that broke the camel's back. I've considered other religions, one that are much more...accepting...but the only thing stopping me from leaving the religion or simply changing dominations, is that I've been told that any church accepting gays is "doing it wrong," and leaving the religion once you're baptized is a sin because you've formed a covenant with God, and breaking it will bring doom and destruction to your family, etc.

Quick question - and this is a rhetorical question (i.e. I don't need an answer, I just want you to think about it): did you freely choose to be baptised and form a covenant? Or was this something that happened to you as a minor, when you were young & impressionable and not yet mature enough to consider all the ramifications of such a decision? Because it seems to me that you're having second thoughts; that you've signed up for a deal before you got to read the small print, such as its lack of acceptance for people like us.

Oh, and by the way, that thing about breaking a covenant bringing doom & destruction to your family is a manipulative tactic that many religions use to try to keep their people in the faith. It's just designed to scare you; it isn't really true.

Quote from: VenomGaia on July 02, 2013, 12:03:30 AM
Which, so far, hasn't really been untrue. My family's been pretty unlucky for the past year ;L

Not your fault. Good things happen. Bad things happen. That's life. Nobody is 'punishing' you by making things difficult for your family; please don't take this burden on your shoulders because it isn't yours to bear.

Quote from: VenomGaia on July 02, 2013, 12:03:30 AM
She would tell me that the point of his messages it to hurt, and correct you. And that if I'm offended by what he's saying, it just means that I'm in the wrong, and need to pray for forgiveness.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.... back up here. Did you see what you said there? Let me point it out to you again: "She would tell me that the point of his messages it to hurt, and correct you." I know this is hard to see when you are caught up in a strong belief system that is very dear to your heart, but deliberately hurting someone (even emotionally) is a form of abuse.

Look at these words from a different angle: imagine your father was getting drunk & beating you every weekend because he disagrees with some aspect of your behaviour. He's says he does it because he loves you, after all he's only doing it "to hurt and correct you". So you go crying to your mother and ask her to try to get your dad to stop beating you. But she doesn't want to rock the boat with your dad, so she just says that you must be in the wrong and you have to beg him for his forgiveness. So he just keeps beating you, only a little bit harder next time because you had the cheek to question his authority.

Is that ok? Or is that abuse? Exactly.

Quote from: VenomGaia on July 02, 2013, 12:03:30 AM
Not to mention the fact that I am "bound to a covenant" on both sides, and going against that covenant (a.k.a, doing anything worldly, like being Gay or changing genders or even being a different religion or not believing in God) would result in my swift downfall.

No, it wouldn't result in your downfall. Also, you are only bound by something if you choose to be - and you can change your mind at any time. Many of us have done some or all of those things and we're perfectly fine.

If you're questioning your faith, that's a very good thing. It's the best thing. Because it's only through questioning your faith that you can come out at the end either with a stronger, better-established belief in something you have found to be true... or discarding something that you have found to be false.

I'm very obstinate: when I dig my heels in, there's no shifting me. So when I questioned (and lost) my own faith, I simply refused to attend church any more. Sure, my family tried to pressure me into going, but they couldn't actually force me to go. What could they do? Tie me up & drag me to church? No. So eventually they just gave up trying and I stayed at home whilst they went.

Source: been there, done that, got the T-Shirt.

I'd like to point something out here. Just because you're having a falling out with your church, it doesn't mean that you have to have a falling out with your religion. I've met plenty of Christians who've had plenty of space to have love and respect for the LGBT crowd and their religion at the same time. I can see how you're disenfranchised with your faith, but (in my mind at least) any religion is what you make of it. The Bible is very inconsistent in it's views, and most people cherry pick from it to match what their beliefs are, including your pastor. There's nothing that says you can't do the same.  Now, keep in mind that, having said that,  I'm an Athiest, so feel free to tell me to shut up because I have no idea what I'm talking about.