Randomly wandering around the Internet last night I saw this link and wanted to share it: http://ftmguide.rassaku.net/

I hadn't seen it before, and it is by far the best guide I've seen for passing and generally looking completely male.  One thing the author really harps on is the importance of the V shape to passing, IE - your shoulders need to be wider than your hips, and if they aren't - do not despair, you can change that. 

I think many times, people post on the "do I pass?" thread and nobody can locate why they don't pass given their facial features, but it is probably a combination of body shape and height. We can't do anything about height, but you can get the V shape by losing weight to reduce hip size and working out your shoulders to deemphasize curves. 

I thought this picture from his page was the best summary of his point;



As someone shaped exactly like the first triangle, working out my shoulders is something I really want to put effort into. Push-ups seem to be the way to do it without going to the gym.  I've heard things before about following this routine: http://www.hundredpushups.com/  Sort of like Couch to 5k but for pushups.

Quote from: spacerace on July 05, 2013, 02:06:35 PM


As someone shaped exactly like the first triangle, working out my shoulders is something I really want to put effort into. Push-ups seem to be the way to do it without going to the gym.  I've heard things before about following this routine: http://www.hundredpushups.com/  Sort of like Couch to 5k but for pushups.

Oh hey, I have that book. I started the program this week. It's brutal
I do believe I've done more pushups this week than in the last five years already. I like how pushups also help your sides. I would recommend doing it if you were thinking about it.

I've been doing the "Body Beast" program from Beachbody, and the shoulder workouts are amazing. Since I am pre-T, I haven't really gotten very big, but I can tell my shoulders have gotten broader and my hips are smaller. It has a lot of traditional moves like shrugs, lateral raises, presses, etc. I do push-ups, but for some reason, if I do more than just a few, it hurts my right forearm. I think one of the muscles in my right forearm is a little off, because I can usually feel it moving around where I don't in my left arm.

I haven't really even tried to pass since my shoulders have broadened, but I do agree that it's really helpful in passing. That's one of the first things I notice about men when I am out and about, and usually when I see someone who's kind of andro looking, shoulder size is one of the things that catches my attention if I am trying to decide whether to call someone a he/she.

I had stumbled upon that page a few weeks ago, and I agree it's the best guide I've seen so far. Made me also realize I should get a better haircut which I'm going to do next week and I've been doing weight lifting and push-ups every day since reading that.

I don't know if that's true. I am passing about 15% of the time and sure don't have that shape. Thing is I know guys who have been on T for years and years and still have big hips and so on. They pass 100% of the time. Your shape is one thing out of thousands of factors. Gendering is done subconsciously imo and based on lots of different things.

--Jay

Of course the V shape isn't the defining feature that separates the two genders, but it DEFINITELY helps when it comes to passing. I'm lucky and have VERY wide shoulders (I don't know if lucky's the right word, since the rest of me is small so I can never find clothes that fit), but even so, I'm still working hard at the gym to create an even stronger V shape.

I do most of the arm machines, and go as heavy as possible. I'm already starting to build more shoulder muscle, to the point where I almost have definition without flexing despite my arm fat (almost is a huge breakthrough for me). I'm having trouble building my back muscles as much, but I think that's because it's just harder to target that area, so the growth comes slower. I'm fairly certain eventually when my shoulders are big enough, my back will have built up some as well and I'll have a much better overall shape.

One thing's for certain, having a V shape will help more than anything once I finally get top surgery and can go topless on the beach!

Quote from: aleon515 on July 05, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
I don't know if that's true. I am passing about 15% of the time and sure don't have that shape. Thing is I know guys who have been on T for years and years and still have big hips and so on. They pass 100% of the time. Your shape is one thing out of thousands of factors. Gendering is done subconsciously imo and based on lots of different things.

--Jay

If my post made it seem like you absolutely had to have a V shape to pass, that was not my intention. Of course people pass without it.  I more just that meant that for those with us with a pear shape, working out your shoulders can really help.

Out of curiosity I measured the width of my shoulders (from the boney part on top, not around the fat/muscle) and then I measured my hips (again, from the boney part). My hips are 5 inches narrower than my shoulders. If I could manage to loose the hip/butt/thigh fat I'd have a natural V shape without pumping my shoulders up. I feel enormously happy with this news. Now all it'll take is shedding almost 100 pounds of fat.

Quote from: randomroads on July 05, 2013, 04:53:45 PM
Out of curiosity I measured the width of my shoulders (from the boney part on top, not around the fat/muscle) and then I measured my hips (again, from the boney part). My hips are 5 inches narrower than my shoulders. If I could manage to loose the hip/butt/thigh fat I'd have a natural V shape without pumping my shoulders up. I feel enormously happy with this news. Now all it'll take is shedding almost 100 pounds of fat.

I just did the same after reading yours, my shoulders are 6 inches bigger at the bones than the widest part of my hips. Though, it's kind of hard to really measure my shoulders. I don't think my shoulders look bigger, so maybe I did it wrong?

Though if I follow this formula that's in the article:

QuoteBe careful not to confuse hips with waist -- both male and female bodies can be narrow at the waist, but women then get wider again at the hips (which results in curves) while men aren't appreciably wider in the hips than in the waist. If you want to put numbers to it, .7 is considered the healthy waist/hip ratio for women, and .9 for men. To find your own, take a tape measure and divide the number of inches around your waist by the number of inches around your hips.

my number is 0.822, so I am right in between the numbers for a cis-male and a cis-female, yay! maybe if I do a bit more jogging and weight lifting I'll be down (or up? I suck at math) to .9 soon.

How much of body shape is determined by the skeleton?  I know for me my clavicle is wider than my hip bone.  Further, my rib cage flares out wider than my hip bone.  Both make any development of curves pretty much an impossibility for me.  In fact, my body is optimized for maintaining a classic male V shape.  Of course, I was born XY and went through male puberty.

Everyone's body is different, and some have an excellent starting point for transition while others not so much.  I guess there are things to mitigate our original puberty, but keep in mind your body's limitations.

The "V" shape is largely dependent on having wide shoulders.  For those transguys who have finished puberty without broad shoulders, you can work on building muscles.  Member Jamison comes to mind, in the respect.

Some natal females, especially swimmers who start early, develop wide, "masculine" shoulders.  On the other hand, no one mistakes them for male when they are competing, even if they have low body fat and minimal breast growth.

So the body shape is only part of the equation.  Putting forward a masculine gender presentation, and adopting a masculine attitude, will perhaps go farther for you than worrying about body shape.

Quote from: Xena the Warrior Princess on July 05, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
So the body shape is only part of the equation.  Putting forward a masculine gender presentation, and adopting a masculine attitude, will perhaps go farther for you than worrying about body shape.

Agreed.  My post was more about making the point to manage expectations when it comes to body changes.  There are limitations to how much our bodies will change.  I think sometimes people see excellent results in others and strive for more than their bodies will allow, and then they become disappointed in what they perceive as a lack of results.  However, as you mention, there are other aspects involved as well, and body type is only one variable in the equation.

Very good observation.  Sometimes we all get caught up in the "expectations" game.

I really disagree with it, and think it's kind of ridiculous. The ability to change shape isn't really that easy. Building up your upper body to be top heavy when you have wide hips is very very hard, and for some people it's not really possible. Masculinity isn't all of it either, there's a lot of feminine trans guys out there who get seen as male as much as any cis guy.

I just think that it's a really really shallow one dimensional way of looking at things, and it's never that simple.

Quote from: Xena the Warrior Princess on July 05, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
So the body shape is only part of the equation.  Putting forward a masculine gender presentation, and adopting a masculine attitude, will perhaps go farther for you than worrying about body shape.

I don't really think so. I feel like finding a comfortable balance between doing what you want to/what makes you feel good and "masculinity/male stereotypes" is what's needed. Doing what makes you feel good generally gives more confidence over masculinity, and the concept of masculinity is still really foreign to me.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 05, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
I really disagree with it, and think it's kind of ridiculous. The ability to change shape isn't really that easy. Building up your upper body to be top heavy when you have wide hips is very very hard, and for some people it's not really possible. Masculinity isn't all of it either, there's a lot of feminine trans guys out there who get seen as male as much as any cis guy.

I just think that it's a really really shallow one dimensional way of looking at things, and it's never that simple.

I don't think the author was saying "this is the only way you can be a man"  or "this is the only way you can pass". I read the entire article and it did say that it's hard for FAABs, even on T, to look like an inverted triangle. He also mentions that getting to a certain low BMI on FAABs can be dangerous. He also mentions that most likely, the best we can hope for is being the "that guy" box. I don't want anyone here to starve themselves or take steroids to get big shoulders and small hips, but I don't think encouraging people to exercise and diet (in a healthy manner) is a bad thing. Of course, if people don't want to exercise, they can still pass. I've seen some guys who aren't an inverted triangle who pass.

I am just also going to add, so I don't seem one dimensional, that I lift weights and workout because it makes me feel better--being stronger makes me feel more masculine, and I don't expect to ever look like a man, but if it just happens to come about, wooya for me. Maybe I won't feel this way forever, but just the feeling of masculinity that I have from lifting weights and feeling stronger takes away a lot of my urge to go on T -- if I feel so manly, I don't see the point of going through the time and expense of getting on T just to reinforce how I already feel. Even though I do feel more masculine, I know I just actually look physically more feminine, I still have a lot of curves and this would probably be my best summer in a bikini if I wanted to wear one, but I am going to keep doing what I am doing anyway.  (I like the endorphin rush lol)

Didn't read the link in the OP. Read two paragraphs, regret it.

Quote from: LearnedHand on July 06, 2013, 12:17:17 AM
He also mentions that most likely, the best we can hope for is being the "that guy" box.

Oh so I'm lucky to have 'that guy' shape?  Maybe if I continue building muscle and losing weight, I'll get the V. lol
Anyway, I've seen plenty of wide-hipped guys (though I have occasionally wondered if they were trans but I doubt the cis population does). Some guys with broad shoulders also have broad hips.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out tips that might aid passability. As we know, it's a combination of things. If you otherwise look and sound like a girl, no V shape will help you.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 05, 2013, 11:30:21 PM
The ability to change shape isn't really that easy.

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with shooting for it as long you're realistic about the results. But I don't workout expecting much more than a fitter, stronger body. I wouldn't get too invested in achieving a certain look. I am looking to build up my shoulders as much as possible though.

Quote from: Nygeel on July 05, 2013, 11:32:36 PM

I don't really think so. I feel like finding a comfortable balance between doing what you want to/what makes you feel good and "masculinity/male stereotypes" is what's needed. Doing what makes you feel good generally gives more confidence over masculinity, and the concept of masculinity is still really foreign to me.

Yeah, I'd say confidence is more vital than masculine presentation. And if you're worrying about whether you appear 'masculine' or not, that's like the opposite of confidence. I still have this issue myself - worrying about passing, worrying I'll 'come off gay' (not that I think there's anything wrong with that), etc. If I had more confidence, I wouldn't worry about these things.

I do think there are a lot of useful and interesting notes in the Rassaku guide. For instance, how small changes can make a big visual difference. Example for me is Tshirts vs Polo shirts. Because of the collar detail on polos, my overall shape is completely different to if I wore a crew neck tshirt. With my rounded shoulders from years of hiding moobs plus not being the bulkiest, the harsh truth is just a less male impression.

....I read upstream some measures of chest versus backside.  Two posters measured difference at 4 inches.

I just checked myself (I'm a gay guy) and only four inches in the difference, and I work out....and have for years....

How much of body shape is determined by the skeleton?

There is the widening of the shoulder girdle at puberty for cis-males--but--a *lot* of the V shape from behind is because of the lats.  Gym and lats (and pecs) is where I get an extra 5 or so inches on measurements.

I've seen really 'male' looking slender bodies, medium bodies and larger bodies.  Tone.  The word 'cut' comes to mind, or 'ripped'.  In the gym set, the guys always say that a guy looks bigger if he's got a lower BMI....

cheers
stav