My therapist told me that I need to absolve the shame from my cross-gender feelings and only then will I reach clarity.

1. What shameful feelings and mindsets did you have?

2. How did you manage them or eventually even conquer them?

I told the therapist that I don't recognize feelings of shame, but he told me that's all he saw, so perhaps I'm oblivious to it. Any tips for recognizing why I might be shameful for having a cross-gender orientation and desires?

Part of what you are feeling (and I won't label it as "shame" or "guilt" or anything else) comes from a couple of different sources.

First, we all realize that we are unlike 99+% of other people.  Some of us recognized that early; others later.  You can read about it in almost every introduction posted here.  It is that feeling that our gender(s) just are not in sync with what we observe in the world, especially with gender roles and gender expressions.

A second factor is that you came from a religious family, whose church dogma strongly emphasizes the role of males in church and family activities.  Even if you were to today reject those teachings, the socialization you had is still going to float around in the back of your head.

For me, progress began with self-acceptance of my uniqueness.  When you do that, you can begin to shed the socialization luggage you are carrying around with you, which manifests in your indecisiveness.

My shame came from my family's pride. My parents never let anyone think that there was anything "wrong" with anyone in our immediate family. So until my mother came out as prescription drug abuser I thought that living in perfectville was the norm. I thought transsexualism was a bad joke on TV and that my days of cross dressing and feeling like a girl were wrong wrong wrong.

These days I've broken down my compartmentalized walls around my gender issues and recognized them for what they are. I've accepted it finally and I have been moving towards transition in a slow steady path that will hopefully help me.

You see shame takes many forms and can be disguised as a need to man up or feel like something is wrong and should be shunned when it really isn't. I hope that helps you.

My shame comes from the thought of the humiliation and embarrassment - and even bullying - I would/will bring on my wife and children by transitioning.

So, actually, I'm ashamed of making them vulnerable to other people's ignorance, bigotry and hate. Which is grotesque, really, because it's letting the haters win.

As to the condition itself, I'm not at all ashamed. Why should I be? It's just part of who I am.

The shame of being you!

The remarkable thing of being trans*gendered is that we keep apologising about it.

Why?

I'm a perfectly normal happy human being.

I have nothing to be ashamed of.

I love and care for people.

I do not insult or attack others.
I do not deny others their rights.

I was just born with testicles and penis rather than ovaries and a vagina.

No big deal to be honest.

Nothing to be ashamed of.

But I was.

I was ashamed that people would think me odd.

I was ashamed that people would not accept me.

I was ashamed of being me.

Why? And how do you deal with it?

In my case I realised that my fellow 'normal' people were as deeply flawed as I, If not more so.

I could and did and do accept others; while they could not.

I realised rather suddenly that I had nothing to be ashamed of.

I realised I'm Cindy.
I owe no one an explanation for that. I owe no one an apology for that. I'm me.

I'm proud to be me!

I have never had a 'normal' person apologise to me for being 'normal'

There is no way in Hell that I will apologise for being me.

How do you overcome shame?

By accepting yourself as normal; because you are.

Cindy

Hi, I don't know anyone transgender who wishes to or has transitioned for whom shame is not or has not been the primary psychological impediment. I hope I don't sound picky about your therapist if I say that "absolve" is such a loaded word because it continues to participate in the western tradition of Christianity that was for me  the source of shame to start with. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from being Christian, but I found the most success coming to terms with shame when I let go of the idea that people in any way need to be "forgiven" for who they are. Still, shame is a tenacious emotion, and I would not have wanted the requirement of being rid of it entirely before I made my transition. I find it better not to fight the feelings of shame, but to try to sit with them and treat them tenderly. After all, it is a feeling I'm having. It may not be positive, but avoiding pain may be as destructive as having it. 

I don't want to sound healthier than I am. I still don't like shame, but I'm transitioned and usually kind to myself. I wish you the same happiness. 

--Jane

My shame came from not being "normal". I've always prided myself on doing what is expected and required of me, on not "rocking the boat", supplying a stable home for my kid, being a dependable husband, etc. When I started down the road toward transition, I was no longer any of those things. I was the person everyone else shook their head at. "Those poor kids. That poor wife" If my parents were alive, I'm sure it would have been "his (sic.) poor parents."

I conquered my shame by being something of a crusader. If transgender and transition is normalized it will because people like me vocalize and demonstrate why transition needs to happen and how we remain intelligent, responsible, and competent throughout the process and after.

Quote from: Christine167 on July 09, 2013, 04:53:05 AM
My shame came from my family's pride. My parents never let anyone think that there was anything "wrong" with anyone in our immediate family. So until my mother came out as prescription drug abuser I thought that living in perfectville was the norm. I thought transsexualism was a bad joke on TV and that my days of cross dressing and feeling like a girl were wrong wrong wrong.

These days I've broken down my compartmentalized walls around my gender issues and recognized them for what they are. I've accepted it finally and I have been moving towards transition in a slow steady path that will hopefully help me.

You see shame takes many forms and can be disguised as a need to man up or feel like something is wrong and should be shunned when it really isn't. I hope that helps you.

Compartmentalization is something I did too - actually still do, to some extent.  It was a way of coping with stresses I did not understand - it is a defensive mechanism.

My therapist suggested that my shame inhibits my clarity on the issue. This is a little long but I'll write concisely. I have identified the several sources of shame I experience.

1. Familial shame. There are only two family members that I feel ashamed in front of, my twin sister and my mom, which are my two best friends, but also the greatest source of disapproval. They have unconditional love for me and I know that they would never stop loving me. However...

My mom has told me that she would never accept this and would never see me again and would have to communicate with me by phone. She expects me to be a great man within society and our church (Mormon church, I'm no longer Mormon) and also expects me to give her a religious blessing one day, something exclusive to males in the Mormon church. She repeatedly drills at me that this will be my downfall and destruction. She says that every man has let her down in her life, including her father, brothers, uncles, and husband. I don't want to be the next, in a line of male failures. She said I was suppose to be her son.

Since I have trusted her my whole life with looking out for my best interest, it starts to make me wonder if she is correct in these claims.

I seek my twin sister's approval for many of the things that I do. We are the very best of friends, and have an atypically close relationship even for twins. We hug and tell each other that we love each other everyday. She would be devestated to lose her twin brother. She is a black and white thinker and is heavily entrenched in the Mormon church. She thinks this behavior is morally wrong.

I would have a hard time looking my twin sister or mom in the eye because I have the irrational belief that if I was raised properly and came from a loving home with loving parents who taught me correctly to be a good person, then I would not have ended up with an orientational or gender deviancy. I feel like I would shame the family name.

I would feel shameful and selfish for taking away my mom's only son, and my sister's brother. I know they will always love me, but I am not deluded to believe that they will play along with my little fantasy life, or that things will ever be the same between us.


2. Associative shame (Shame I feel in front of the people I have associated myself with in my life). I come from a deep south religious community. I don't really have any friends to lose. However, I would not want to face my martial arts training partners. One simply does not go from being one of the guys, beating each other up in the gym everyday, and watching UFC on Saturday nights together, to being a woman. Most fighters reaction to anything correlated with homosexuality is neutral at best, and violent at worst. The majority of fighters would not take kindly to have been rolling around all these years with a "->-bleeped-<-," as some of them call people like myself. I would not show up in the gym ever again or even talk to my old training buddies ever again.

I would certainly delete my facebook. The people on my facebook are people from high school, college, church, and family. I am not the type to hold a press conference and attention-whore the fact that I have these feelings. I want a low key life.

3. Ashamed in one's own eyes. It's very hard to be proud of a paraphilic sexual orientation. While a paraphilia is not inherently illegal or immoral, and many are quite harmless, the fact remains that I have a sexual attraction to something that is very atypical. And paraphilia is a big scary word that other people will associate with illegal, immoral paraphilias such as pedophilia or zoophilia. Additionally, this atypical sexual orientation crowds out any heterosexual desires that I could have, and from my experience the only fulfilling exual relation I could have with another person would be one that allows me to live out the female fantasy, which would be me as a woman in a sexual relationship with a man. This feels shameful in my own eyes.

All of these things combined makes me want to lock these feelings in the closet and throw away the key.

@Jamie - Thanks, it's nice to know that someone else has that issue too. I have trouble sometimes getting people to understand it.

@Ultimus- that's pretty deep. I've had lots of Mormon friends growing up and while they were a traditional bunch here in my area they never seemed so oppressive. I'm sorry that you are going through that. I know how you feel on the family front. My mother would probably just look at me as a monster. My wife looks at me as the betrayer. But you have to know that everyone has problems. You are choosing to do something about yours though instead of bottling the up some more. Please continue to seek help. The shame will ease and subside in time.

Normally, Joseph, I would answer your post privately.  But in this case, I think the public exchange of ideas is a good thing.

Let's start with Point 3.  Paraphilia.

I know from your posting history that you subscribe to the widely discredited concept of Blanchard's topology.  In this case you believe that you (as a male) have a "paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought of image of [yourself] as a woman."  This is a Blanchard creation, which has little basis in any sort of science.  In fact it was a bad theory, unsupported by established methods in social science, which led to the classification of an entire group of people as "disordered."

Fortunately, the damage Blanchard, Bailey, and others have done is slowly being rectified.  And even if this is how you are aroused, exclusively, it does not fit into the widely recognized definition of a paraphilia.  The human mind is the most erotic organ in the body, and any number of ideas can be found to be sexually arousing.  Seeing yourself as a woman is not a disorder.  Role playing with sexual partners are not a disorder.  Fantasies are not a disorder.  They are part of the normal human experience.   This transsexual topology as a concept is garbage.

There is nothing in your behavior that suggests you are in any way disordered.

Point 2 - Martial arts training partners

When you first joined the site, you mentioned that your development in puberty was delayed, and that you had to take testosterone injections to spur masculinization.  And you, rightfully, take pride in your martial arts training.  So do women.  In fact, some of the best martial artists are women - correct?

I don't think I would call anyone trained in the martial arts a "->-bleeped-<-."  I would not want to go up, for instance, against Shad Smith or Ron Llanenza.

Why do you think your MMA buddies would be so thoroughly bigoted as to reject you?  And if they are that bigoted, why would you want to associate with them?  And let me observe, we have quite a few male-bodied-at-birth transgendered and transsexual women here who served their country in the military, who lived macho lives, had ubermasculine hobbies, and still recognized their internal, innate femininity.  It is something we are born with.  We don't imagine it.  It is not a disorder.

We conduct our lives in the best ways we know how.  For some that is a full transition.  For others it just being true to themselves.

Point 1 - Family

You are carrying with you 21 years of others expectations.  What are your expectations??  Given with what you know about yourself - of how you feel inside - whose expectations are really more important?  Do you want to go through life depressed, ashamed, and alone?

For many of us, the very first breakthrough was self-acceptance.  If we can not accept who we are, how can we ask anyone else to accept us?

It is not an easy path.  Perhaps your MMA training and self-discipline can be harnessed to focus on your transgender issues.  And you are, my friend, transgendered.  For me, that path to peace of mind, is littered with all sorts of doubts, reconsiderations, and disbelief.  It is what we do in the process of becoming ourselves.  You may not necessarily need to become a woman to accept the girl that is there inside of you.  Maybe there is a guy there who needs to be accommodated too.

It is about finding your balance.  But shame, guilt and mental torture will not lead peace of mind.

This thread has helped me tremendously, thank you. We are definitely not alone here.

Shame, after 7 months of weekly therapy and sharing with the friends here and "friends" (4) at work I can say I am only apologetic to my wife. I apologize for my character flaws in not sharing with her who I am ( trans) and tattoos and piercings ( were hidden for years but not now). I do not feel bad for being trans ( now) but it took a lot of work to accept myself and there was a lot of self loathing.

I have to agree. If I could have not transitioned I would have skipped it as well. The so called shame of being transgender ?

  I a ashamed that I have let so many people take control over my life and decisions. Keep me from doing what needed to be done


soluton? still working it out actually 

@Ultimus - Sounds like you and I have several things in common. I too come from a Mormon family. Of my family, only my wife knows about me being transgendered, but somehow she's gotten the idea in her mind that I'm going to therapy to 'fix' it.  She just hasn't been able to wrap her head around the turmoil and pain this is causing. I'm actually working on a letter to her that is going to make things pretty clear that I have no intention of continuing a life of pretending to be someone I'm not.

But anyway, I totally understand the shame that can be felt from all the expectations, especially with the LDS perspective. After I had my 'personal awakening' and realized that transitioning was the road I needed to take, I decided to take a break from church. Mostly because my emotions are in turmoil about the church and how it has influenced my life, both good and bad. And ever since I stopped going to church my wife has asked things like "Who's going to baptize our son in September?", "Who's going to give the kids a blessing when their sick?" and "We were doing so well, daily prayers and scriptures, paying tithing... and now you're not even going to church. What do I tell the kids?". She basically sees me as having gone off the deep end. She thinks Satan is influencing me and is trying to destroy our marriage.

I also get the impression that she thinks my dressing is morally wrong. One time she came home and caught me in the middle of trying on some clothes I'd bought. She didn't fully see me though because I swiftly ducked in the bathroom (I didn't want her to see me that way for the first time without my makeup and wig on, plus I wasn't sure if it was one of the kids opening the bedroom door). But I was sad when she told me that the experience devastated her, like she caught me doing something dirty and wrong. Because it wasn't that at all. The few times I get to dress up en femme are the only reprieves I get from living a life according to everyone else's expectations; from pretending to be that picture perfect son, brother, father, husband, priesthood bearer, etc. that they all want. And there's so much shame conveyed within the church when you don't live up to those expectations.

I do hope my wife will come around. Like I said, I'm writing her a letter that I'm basically pouring out my soul to her in. I fear though that my transitioning could be the end of our marriage. I also fear that she may take the kids and turn them against me when I do come out to everyone. And I'm sure there's going to be plenty more disappointment from my mom, dad, and some of the rest of my family. I have friends that I do martial arts with as well. Our style may not be as intense as yours (we only meet once a week), but the camaraderie is still there. Many LDS beliefs are interwoven into our style as well. I often wonder how accepted I will be there once I make it known that I'm transitioning. I don't think anyone is going to give me a pounding, but will they accept me for who I am? Or will they think I'm not 'being of good moral character' or 'treating my body with respect' and ask me to leave?

There is a lot of shame to be had there if I choose to bear it. But I don't have to. Why should I feel ashamed for wanting to be who I truly am? Let others keep the shame they would thrust upon me--it's their shame, not mine.

As for personal shame, that's something you are going to have to come to terms with on your own. I will offer my opinion on the matter though. I think it's perfectly natural for an individual to have sexual desires, man or woman. Hell, my wife is constantly thinking about sex and does a good job of making sure I don't forget it. If a person identifies as the male or female gender, then isn't it then perfectly natural for them to want to have sex as that gender? It's not something most people even consider though, because 99.9% of the world is CIS-gendered and they don't suffer from gender dysphoria. They can have sex without feeling like they are in the wrong body. And what about those of us that don't have that luxury? Well, we deal with it in our own ways. When I have sex with my wife, I actually have to envision myself as a woman (and sometimes her as the man) in order to climax. And you know what? That's perfectly normal for me because I identify as a woman.

Now, in regards to what you said:

Quote...from my experience the only fulfilling sexual relation I could have with another person would be one that allows me to live out the female fantasy, which would be me as a woman in a sexual relationship with a man. This feels shameful in my own eyes.

You're going to have to take a deeper look at that and try and understand why you feel ashamed by it. Is it not natural for who you are to have desires that way? If yes then why are you ashamed of what is natural for you? If no then why do you believe your desires are unnatural? Do you think they are artificial? That they are caused by some sort of 'evil spirit'?

Speaking as one from an LDS perspective I know some of the thoughts that may or may not come up; "Am I just following the desires of the 'natural man' within me who is an enemy to God?", "Are these desires my own or am I being led astray by the devil?", "The first presidency has said that our gender is part of our eternal identity. Could I have been a female spirit in the pre-existence? Is it possible to be born with a female spirit in a male body? Why would God allow such a thing knowing the pain, rejection, and grief it would cause us?"

Some of your questions may echo those. You'll have to find your own answers though and finally come to terms with this shame you feel about yourself. It is a burden that you don't deserve to put on yourself and the sooner you explore and deal with it the better.

You had to take T injections to masculinize? Don't you think there is some correlation between that and your transsexualism? I know I experienced a very atypical puberty, never grew over 5'5, can't build muscle the way guys can without supplements and T, and had boobs and pretty fatty thighs by the end of puberty. I don't know if I'm intersexed, and don't identify as such, but I know my BF says this was meant to be and I wear it so well and that he has never known of one guy with stretch marks the way I have them but every woman he knows has them in the same manner. He says I was born half woman lol but wouldn't that reduce your shame if it wasn't your fault, which it is not. But I certainly can relate coming from a Irish Catholic family. My mom wants me to take my FB images down because I am giving people too much info or something. But know she is prolly more concerend about the fact I present totally femme now with full makeup and skinny jeans and tight fitting tops that show off my awesome boobs (really they are so great) and moved in with my BF lol

It is not my intention to bash any church, especially the Latter Day Saints.  I had plenty of LDS friends growing up - some named Smith and Young!!  I even participated in some of their activities, like sports.

I know the importance of the temple rites, like marriage and baptism.  And I have heard the argument that "God doesn't make mistakes."

So some sources report that 2 to 5 out of every 100,000 genetic male births result in CAIS.  Individuals with CAIS look like women.  Here is an example - Eden Atwood



These individuals look like women.  They are assigned female at birth.  They grow up and are socialized as women.  They are usually not diagnosed until their teens when they have not started having periods, though they have all the other female secondary sex characteristics.  And they can't have children.

Since the ratio of male births to female births is roughly the same, we can assume that 2 to 5 out of every 100,000 women are CAIS "males."  Statistically this applies to Latter Day Saints.  And this applies to temple marriages.  So the LDS church is sanctifying "same-sex" marriage.  Bet they didn't know that.

Quote from: Ultimus on July 08, 2013, 10:36:40 PM
...

1. What shameful feelings and mindsets did you have?

The only shame I had was regarding what happened to me as a child (sex abuse), and later I had some issues about homosexual behaviors (which were contrary to my appearance and life). Once I was able to place them in context--the shame of child abuse was not mine, it was my abusers shame--and the homosexual behaviors was a part of me trying to get control over those many uncontrolled events (rapes)--but generally I made good decisions, all things considered.

This revelation gave me confidence to explore the rest of my "parts"...during which I discovered mySELF (Beth).

I had no shame that was my own...if people are bothered by my being TS, it is they who have the problem, not me.

Quote2. How did you manage them or eventually even conquer them?

...

Therapy. The ability to talk things out with an impartial and caring person, whom I can trust to tell me if I'm spot-on or if I'm being goofy. Friends are nice, and necessary...but a good therapist is worth 10 friends, imho.

@Jamie D: I completely agree with what you are saying. I only brought up the LDS arguments earlier to let Ultimus know that I understand what it's like to deal with those kind of questions. I certainly don't agree with those arguments anymore and I think most of them are very hurtful as they are intended to cast guilt and shame on people for just being who they are. In fact, those kind of arguments aren't very "Christian" at all. It makes me want to get one of those "Jesus would slap the s*** out of you" bumper stickers...

Anyway, it was a difficult road getting to where I am now--willing to admit that I don't agree with the church's position on the issues of gender identity and sexual orientation. It was such a painful experience because questioning the church's position on those issues was essentially questioning the church in it's entirety and everything it had taught me. I don't know if that's the case with many other religions, but in the LDS church we are taught that the prophets will never lead the church astray. We are taught that God speaks to the prophets and that the prophets have the authority from God to speak for him and direct the people. Which means questioning anything the prophets have revealed from God is akin to questioning everything you've ever been taught in the church.

And I probably would never had gone through the experience of questioning the church's stance had I not been trans. But thankfully I am. Thankfully I was finally able to come to the realization that the church's cookie cutter plan for happiness wasn't working for me. But going through all that, the 'trial of faith' so to speak--it was hell. I felt like everything I'd ever believed in was falling apart, my world crumbling around me. I didn't know what to believe in anymore. I felt pain, hurt, and even anger. A part of me even wanted to lash out because I felt cheated out of so many years spent following the church's teachings, trying to live up to expectations that the church and others put on me. Somehow I've managed to maintain enough grace in me not to do that. Partly I think because my wife, whom I love dearly, is still very much entrenched in the church's beliefs. I don't want to try and force her through the same experience. It was an awakening, but a painful one, and I think that anyone who is going to go through it needs to do so of their own accord and not because they were influenced to do so.

It still hurts to talk about these things. I'm still piecing things back together and my feelings are still very tender about it--I'm not sure if that will ever go away. Then again, I'm not sure if I want it to. Having grown up Mormon is part of who I am. And with some of the values I've been taught are important, I'll still hold on to them and carry with me throughout the rest of my life. I'll still continue forward striving to live my life the best I know how. It's all I've ever done--and I think realizing that has helped me to look back and feel okay with myself and all the decisions I've made up to this point.

I had no shame from being trans..

What I did have is buckets and buckets of shame from some of the things I did to survive earlier in my life.. I was a top end Rent Boy.. I was a drug dealer.. I was a meth addict.. I was a coke addict.. And that's just the tip of the iceberg...

For me, therapy has been the key to dealing with the shame of my past.

PS: I will admit I miss the money from my Rent Boy days..