I was flipping through Lucky magazine recently and I was seeing "boyish" clothes being advertised for women, clothes fashioned in a male way for women.  In addition, I was in a Mcdonalds recently and saw a tomboyish woman dressed in full male clothes, with a loose shirt and baggy pants and a cap, and ordering something in Mcdonalds like nothing.

And I was reminded of how unfair it is that genetic females can feel much freer about looking male than genetic males can about looking girly, in other words the double standard between crossdressing with genetic males and genetic females.

Is it because we still are living in a male-centric society, that it is ultimately male society has to approve things?  Butch lesbians and tomboys are ok, because they still affirm the superiority of masculinity.  Women are allowed to be feminine because it attracts men (but how dare a woman be fat as deemed by men, so society chastises especially fat women)  But if a male dresses as a girl, males disapprove of it because 1) it goes against the idea of superiority of masculinity, and 2) it makes them afraid that they will be accidentally attracted to a male and affronts their sexuality, and 3) because they are the center of the universe, they deem that males dressing as female not for the purposes of comedy is going against the natural order of things.

Or is it just that genetic females won this through the women's rights movement, and thus have this privilege as a result?

Or is it because male crossdressing is typically attributed to fetishism, whereas female crossdressing isn't?



Is it just a fact of life that there will always be a double standard in this?

And even then, why should it be a big deal if a genetic male crossdresses when genetic females often crossdress with it being pretty accepted?

I have pondered the same subject for years
All the deducton study of society sexuality roles
Sexs all of it

Usually when a man is super homophobic it has
Been proven over and over that he is a latent homosexual

Also in my experice as living as a girl in Vancouver
I had noticed some true heterosexual men were not
Threatened by me at all....that got me curipus
And some have taken me out ...and were not ashamed

When I see a man that gets trans phobic ..I remember the
Studies that proven they may well he scared of the
Fact deep down inside it turns them on.

I don't attribute it to religion...they seem to be more
Concerned with homosexuality ...
Just my thoughts ...

Quote from: Katelyn on July 10, 2013, 01:19:03 PM
I was flipping through Lucky magazine recently and I was seeing "boyish" clothes being advertised for women, clothes fashioned in a male way for women.  In addition, I was in a Mcdonalds recently and saw a tomboyish woman dressed in full male clothes, with a loose shirt and baggy pants and a cap, and ordering something in Mcdonalds like nothing.

And I was reminded of how unfair it is that genetic females can feel much freer about looking male than genetic males can about looking girly, in other words the double standard between crossdressing with genetic males and genetic females.

Is it because we still are living in a male-centric society, that it is ultimately male society has to approve things?  Butch lesbians and tomboys are ok, because they still affirm the superiority of masculinity.  Women are allowed to be feminine because it attracts men (but how dare a woman be fat as deemed by men, so society chastises especially fat women)  But if a male dresses as a girl, males disapprove of it because 1) it goes against the idea of superiority of masculinity, and 2) it makes them afraid that they will be accidentally attracted to a male and affronts their sexuality, and 3) because they are the center of the universe, they deem that males dressing as female not for the purposes of comedy is going against the natural order of things.

Or is it just that genetic females won this through the women's rights movement, and thus have this privilege as a result?

Or is it because male crossdressing is typically attributed to fetishism, whereas female crossdressing isn't?



Is it just a fact of life that there will always be a double standard in this?

And even then, why should it be a big deal if a genetic male crossdresses when genetic females often crossdress with it being pretty accepted?

Just a fact of life, an atavistic consequence of human evolution..things will change but it will take several generations

Read Whipping Girl by Julia Serano. She talks about this in detail, and relates it to trans-misogyny.

While females are "supposed" to be feminine, the misogyny entrenched in our culture means that femininity is still looked down upon as frivolous, artificial, less competent and "lesser" than masculinity. Feminine boys are treated much, much more harshly in our society than masculine girls because of this, and it's also why men crossdressing are almost always ridiculed or treated with disgust in the media whereas women crossdressing are much more easily accepted.

Hey, in fact the whole androgyne fashion is geared towards women wearing male articles and still looking hot and pretty. It has absolutely nothing in terms of men getting something from women wardrobe .

yeah this is still true today. now i know kids in high schools are becoming more open to LBGT people. more so if they can blend in but as a whole if you cross that line you do get looks or laughs.

The last time I looked, society was still controlled by men, CONTROLLED by men.

Women were able to escape the apparel to some extent thanks to war in the 20th century that forced them into smelly messy factories.

What is odd, is how much stuff women still willingly wear, that is essentially male pandering sexist idiocy. High heels being high on my list. Why women willingly wear foot wrecking items just so their ass can look nicer escapes me.

What is tragic, is how a woman can wear an article of clothing like a burkha, an article meant to conceal their disgusting sexual features from vulnerable male eyes, and do it willingly as their 'right'. Tragic as that is nothing short of successful brain washing. As if men and their forms possess no 'disgusting sexual features' to a female mind.

It is true a cis female can wear anything she danged well wishes, and she is merely exercising her right to wear what she wants including very revealing articles that might be ill thought out choices in some cases, but hey it's 'her right'.
But at the same time, the moment a cis male wears 'what he feels like' he might also be totally trashing any form of credible reputation in his community. So it is also frustrating for transwomen who are just assumed to be cis males by society as a whole, and treated exactly the same way.

I'm fairly certain I am not getting any negative responses to my appearance that sound like 'there's no way I am accepting him as female'. I am sure if I get any negative responses, even if not spoken, it would sound like 'must be gay'. They make assumptions directed at my sexual preferences, but never make the conclusion I might be transgender. It's the main reason I get a bit uncomfortable being part of the term LGBTG. I don't think most of the TG in society have any interest in being part of a debate on sexuality.

All of my woes are directed at being annoyed that apparel sizes are just never my shape. All of my frustration is directed at society having a beef with how I dress, not how I enjoy sexual gratification.

I am fully aware, that transmen have a wide range of griefs directed at not being 'seen' properly, and not being treated 'correctly'.
I doubt they have the same clothing aggravations of transwomen, but then again, I can easily put on a pair of pants, and be perfectly safe in a muslim nation. I am fully aware, I will not suffer any from the male world when looking for work in comparison to what a transman likely will be dealing with.

I suppose transmen are on average smaller of size than cis males, but, you can always find male clothing, it's just made for boys not men. There simply is no large scale devotion to making female clothing for what amounts to amazonian magnitudes though.

All in all though, society is dominated by men, and men have a loooooong history of crap they have forced cis females to endure.
It tends to make me unwilling to cry too loudly that for once, cis females have the edge in something.
But it still makes me unhappy when I go shopping.

Quote from: Tristan on July 10, 2013, 03:37:51 PM
yeah this is still true today. now i know kids in high schools are becoming more open to LBGT people. more so if they can blend in but as a whole if you cross that line you do get looks or laughs.

I believe the double standard is do to male rules that are enforced so that when trans guys first come out we don't get a sidelong glance. I certainly did not. I suppose these things can change over time. My grandmother really rocked the boat riding a horse like a boy a long time ago.

--Jay

Responding to Lesley Roberta,  I would just like to point out that high heels didn't start out as female wear



King Louis XIV

Also, some interesting information from a site:

"So why did men stop wearing high heels if they were once so in fashion? And why not women? The overly snobbish connotations of such an impractical style had a lot to do with it. With the Enlightenment came society's embrace for the rational and the rejection of 'privilege over education'. Men renounced the desire to be beautifully and elaborately dressed, choosing instead to be more practical, simple and functional, almost to appear as if they were ready for manual labor on their own grand estates along with the help. It eventually spawned the Great Male Renunciation during the 19th century, a historical phenomenon that would set the tone for menswear in the centuries ahead."

Warning, article has a controversial and demeaning title, see at your own discretion:  http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/02/27/women-wear-high-heels-because-we-are-idiots-says-history/

Another quote from an article:

"Cultural theorist Flugel supports Baudelaire in his argument that there was a dramatic cutback in the male sartorial wardrobe. Men renounced the desire to be beautifully and elaborately dressed, endeavouring instead to be merely practical and functional. The emergence of the three-piece suit was an example of such changes in sartorial ideology. The austere and ascetic forms of sombre attire were deemed socially 'correct'. The advancement of aesthetic fashion was left almost entirely to the female population."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/7066183

Another article:  "Although dandyism was a fringe fad unlikely to ever take off in the mainstream, the sartorial shift that fashion historians coined "the great masculine renunciation" did away with any feminizing clothing features and sparked the (heteronormative) male dress code and hygiene habits. To be a heterosexual, serious man who garnered respect was, as Twain implied, a sensibly dressed man. Thinking about current advertisement for mass-produced men's clothing, such as jeans and khaki pants, little has changed."

"In the United States, the man who suffered most publicly from the "great masculine renunciation" was Martin Van Buren. The one-term President lost failed to get reelected upon the discovery of his toiletry products. Congressman Charles Ogle publicly lambasted Van Buren for owning products, Corinthean Oil of Cream and Extract of Eglantine, implying that such pampering made him unfit for the presidency. As an early American history lesson in just how much the public pays attention to gender and sexuality cues, Van Buren lost.
The "great male renunciation" and the Van Buren incident not only deepened the gender dividing line between His and Hers wardrobes, it also intensified the public distaste for male effeminacy. "

http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2011/06/21/how-martin-van-buren-made-fashion-history/

,,,nd there is the metrosexual phenomena

Superb post Katelyn, thank you

May I suggest that the founding premises of your discussion is inaccurate.

You make the mistake of the reaction of society to you, and your reaction to society, as the norm. Is it?

I'm a post trans*woman. That means I'm not trans. I live my life a every other woman does. OK I'm a high powered professional and yes we are discriminated against to some extent. But in my experience discrimination is based on the multiple roles that woman have in their lives. We try too hard but often we cannot balance family and job etc.

You feel your role, your clothing, your acceptance in society, is somehow diminished by being female. Why?

Mine isn't.

I accept myself as an educated intelligent woman who runs a large department. I'm proud of myself and I push myself. I meet strong men and strong woman, I meet weak men and woman, and everything in between. None are lesser or greater than I. They are people. I accept them.

They accept me.

As a woman I can wear what I want? Well no actually I can't, nor can the guys I know. Yes outside of work we wear what we like but there is the uniform of society. It has nothing to do with gender.

I see in your post a possible lack of acceptance of you - by you; this clouds your thoughts, it alters your perspective.

I'm a woman. I have no doubt. I'm accepted as such because of that. I'm not a pretty or attractive woman. Few are. That is a male fantasy.

But I'm a woman and believe it or not  no-one reacts to me in anyway except as a woman.

You're too big to be a woman?

F* sake I was at a promo with the Adelaide Thunderbirds Basketball team last week. There are gorgeous 6' 10" woman in the team. In USA there are female basketball they would be dwarfed by! And gorgeous as well.

Did I look good when I started?

No way.

It took work. Hard work. I got books and videos of how to do make up. I pound the gym to get fit, I went to make up counters and asked for help. I walked into hairdressers and asked if they could make a guy with a buzz cut look female. I went to nail saloons and asked how to look after my nails. I went to clothes shops and told the girls I was TG and needed help.

Was I embarrassed? There was times I was shaking so much I couldn't speak I was so frightened.

But I'm special. I'm Cindy. I was born into privilege.

Ye Girls.

I was born in the Liverpool docks (UK) I knew I was female when I was four. Ye great fun. I was sent to all boys schools to toughen up. I couldn't stop dressing in female clothes. Why? I'm female!


I'm a woman and I will never give in.

Why do you want to?

Cindy

I think you hit the nail on the head in how American society tends to glorify masculinity and think of femininity as lesser. Feminine men often come under fire in the same way, and woe be the feminine trans man.

Personally it is frustrating to me in a way to see cis women walking around dresses as guys to try to look stronger or to be accepted. It frustrates me first because they should not have to dress male to be respected and shows how misogynistic our society is. It also frustrates me because it further inhibits the ability of myself and other trans men who can't afford or get access to the right hormones from being gendered correctly.

Quote from: Cindy. on July 11, 2013, 05:02:33 AMYou feel your role, your clothing, your acceptance in society, is somehow diminished by being female. Why?

No it isn't, unless you are still seen as male by others, then you are diminished.  Genetic females and transwomen that are accepted as female don't have to worry about that.

If you are still seen as male, then you are supposed "to be better than that" and thus are frowned upon or seen in a second class type of way (unless you are a comedian and doing it for comedy.)

QuoteI accept myself as an educated intelligent woman who runs a large department. I'm proud of myself and I push myself. I meet strong men and strong woman, I meet weak men and woman, and everything in between. None are lesser or greater than I. They are people. I accept them.

Good.  They accept you because many people nowadays accept transgender people on the premise that they were born in the wrong body, and if a transwoman, they are pretty much no different than any ciswoman, and vice versa for transmen.  It helps tremendously if you born with a rock solid gender identity.

Would they treat you the same if you were transgender but not a "I knew I was female since 4-5 years old" transsexual or even not a transsexual at all?

QuoteAs a woman I can wear what I want? Well no actually I can't, nor can the guys I know. Yes outside of work we wear what we like but there is the uniform of society. It has nothing to do with gender.

Work is different than just going around casually.  Work is not a place that you expect to have freedom of expression.  Many retail environments are pretty androgynous in wear.

QuoteI'm a woman. I have no doubt. I'm accepted as such because of that.

Your lucky that you have no doubt.  That helps you to gain acceptance from others.

QuoteI was born in the Liverpool docks (UK) I knew I was female when I was four.

Well your lucky.  You have the power of conviction and the "license" of your rock solid female gender identity backing you up.

Yes I have a rock solid gender identity also
And it's evident ...
I have absolutely no one disrespecting me on my job
And just try...just try to imagine this..

I work in catering...I cook clean serve for men ..
They are sometimes underground miners...
Heavy equipment operators...heavy duty mechanics...
If uou have never ever been in an environment like this than
You would be surprised the respect I get. 
I. KNOW what I am...and I like what I am....what i am beoming
I KNOW men are goikng to dominate me...they can...I don't
Have the strength or aggression to compete...

I believe most see that I'm very outspoken...friendly NOT ashamed
And I'm very open about it.  I told staff membrs...I believe they
Told the company that hired us. .the workess...they had a
Debriefing ..there is transgenders in the kitchen..do not
Harrass or disrepect. .

And in my experience. .if your a ts...and natually feminine and
Not contrived...life will be nicer

I absolutely hold no blame in men for objectifying me...
They see them selves as stronger and more superioir. .
Have to protect the female ...let men be men...and you
Be a natural woman

I've been observing and reading about the fashion double standard for a very long time. However, I believe I'm seeing the beginnings of a major cultural shift regarding this.

The double standard stems primarily from our male-run society and the male view of women as inherently inferior. Thus for a man to be more like a woman is to diminish himself, but for a woman to be more like a man is to step up. However, for the first time, in the US, women now outnumber men in universities by 25% and the margin is growing. Over the next decades there is going to be a gradual shift of power in government, business and culture toward women exerting more power. This will have to be accompanied by a gradual change in cultural viewpoint of the woman as inferior.

A side effect of this cultural shift should be a lessening of the intolerance of men who resemble women in dress or form. I think the current trend of male fashion models now modeling womenswear is an early indication of this trend. Never in modern history has a male in a dress been seen as anything but laughable-- until now. We now have cross dressers that are considered "cool". I think this is only the beginning.

~ Lyric ~

^ That is true, in the U.S. for instance approximately 25% of women in marriages are the primary breadwinner, and more than 50% of women in all households total.  And these numbers are increasing.  More and more women are getting top positions in business, and it looks like the "traditional" models of society are fading faster than ever before.  Women already have more power than men in the consumer world, as marketers know that women are the chief in the household when it comes to purchasing decisions. 

The fashion double standard has made it more difficult for trans guys to be seen as male as Fullthrottle pointed out. Before the uh, 'female clothing revolution' there were a lot of women who passed as male by dress alone, even living their entire lives without anyone knowing they weren't born male. The fashion double standard may have even made gender differences in appearance more obvious to people by necessity. Before, clothing was a good indicator because women just didn't wear male clothes. Could also be why so many trans people are 'clocked' more in LGBT spaces.

Quote from: Fitter Admin on July 13, 2013, 02:17:47 PMBefore, clothing was a good indicator because women just didn't wear male clothes.

I honestly have never considered, this. That's very interesting. Freedom has it's price, I suppose. I've certainly known a number of women who've basically dressed as men their whole lives without being considered men.

So I wonder if some MTF people here would just as soon it wasn't acceptable for a male to wear a dress or high heels.

~ Lyric ~

Quote from: xchristine on July 12, 2013, 03:05:52 PM
Yes I have a rock solid gender identity also
And it's evident ...
I have absolutely no one disrespecting me on my job
And just try...just try to imagine this..

I work in catering...I cook clean serve for men ..
They are sometimes underground miners...
Heavy equipment operators...heavy duty mechanics...
If uou have never ever been in an environment like this than
You would be surprised the respect I get. 
I. KNOW what I am...and I like what I am....what i am beoming
I KNOW men are goikng to dominate me...they can...I don't
Have the strength or aggression to compete...

I believe most see that I'm very outspoken...friendly NOT ashamed
And I'm very open about it.  I told staff membrs...I believe they
Told the company that hired us. .the workess...they had a
Debriefing ..there is transgenders in the kitchen..do not
Harrass or disrepect. .

And in my experience. .if your a ts...and natually feminine and
Not contrived...life will be nicer

I absolutely hold no blame in men for objectifying me...
They see them selves as stronger and more superioir. .
Have to protect the female ...let men be men...and you
Be a natural woman

It's really cool you feel so strong about your true gender. I have to agree with you on the gender roles thing, you just have to let guys be guys. They look at a woman and think whatever it is they think about? Although I'm almost sure it's sexual thoughts. But it's just how guys are and raised to be at least in the south. Like how they open doors for girls and stuff. They see us as weaker and needing help and I use to be all like girl power and I could do whatever they can but have since learned that that's not completely true. Anywho I do like the way guys treat us 80% of the time