I think I've always acted, spoke and carried myself in ways that are typically associated with male behavior. I think it lead to other people seeing me overly aggressive for a girl, due to the incongruity of how I behaved and what they expected. Sometimes, it created friction when I wasn't expecting it at all, and led to people misinterpreting my tone or point.

Social dysphoria is almost as rough for me as issues with my chest. At times I find myself holding a self pity party about how much easier it would have been to get along with other people growing up if only I had been born as a cis-male.  It wasn't all bad, I had friends in school etc - but still

Maybe it would have exactly the same though, and the way my personality used to be received is unrelated to gender perceptions, I don't know. 

Does anyone else have similar experiences or understand what I mean at all?

Yup - I do!

Before I came out, I used to be considered too aggressive for a girl because I was simply acting like myself, but that's not very ladylike (ugh, that word!). It even became a bit of a joke in our office because I famously tore into a printer salesman who tried to 'mansplain' printing to me even though I'm in my third decade in my field. Additionally, you can imagine my car mechanic's reaction when I ripped him a new one because he did an oil change on my car but forgot to put any fresh oil in it (he didn't know what hit him). But this has changed since coming out: now my behaviour is simply considered normal.

My social dysphoria is the strongest dysphoria I have; followed closely by my dysphoria about my hips & chest. I'm not particularly worried about my privates; I'm just a bit sad & disappointed that they'll never be what they were supposed to be.

I know for a fact that I would definitely have turned out different had I been born cismale. I know this because my parents encouraged and pushed my brother to achieve, and he has a huge overdose of self-confidence as a result. But they continuously discouraged me and left me to rot, presuming that I'd grow up to get a nice little job to keep me occupied for a couple of years before marrying the boss/doctor/whatever and being kept by him, and as a result I struggle with my self-confidence. My mother was so dead-set against me improving and asserting myself that when I did my first management course at age 19, she called me a 'jumped-up little so & so'.

I wish they'd raised me like him. That, coupled with a complete absence of social and physical dysphoria, would definitely have made me a different person. But would it have made me a better person? I highly doubt it.

QuoteI know this because my parents encouraged and pushed my brother to achieve, and he has a huge overdose of self-confidence as a result. But they continuously discouraged me and left me to rot

This. My parents were supposed to have three sons, but lost them before birth. I was the girl they never wanted. Once my brother was born 11 years later I was ignored and never got the parenting I needed to mature properly. I had to teach myself how to behave like an adult through trial and many many errors.

I also had social problems with people, particularly girls, because my taste in humour wasn't in line with theirs, and often I forgot and made jokes which didn't go down so well.  It's not something I can repeat here, but I thought it was funny, and guys who've always known me as more masculine than some of them found it funny as well.  It was just that she was one of those people who think girls should act in a certain way.  I think I'm fortunate in being from a different generation to some of you, where being gay is more accepted for a start, and so is breaking gender norms.  Things that would have previously been a huge deal because it wasn't "ladylike" is put down to them thinking I'm a lesbian now.  It's not perfect, and I feel guilty for perpetuating the idea that lesbians are just women wanting to be men, but I'm as sure as heck not going to modify my behaviour to fit into what's "acceptable" for a "girl".

Most of the time I've been lucky enough to get past the shift in how people expect me to behave because of the label that's been stuck on me, and how I actually behave.  In someways having always behaved more masculine works in my favour, because when I can hold my own in an argument, of say PS4 vs xBox One, my peers have realised that I'm no different to them.  Had I been presenting as female at the time it might have gone a completely different way, I don't know.  Maybe their first impressions of me, as male, stuck in their heads longer than they thought as well.

How would I have turned out if I'd been born right?  I don't know, I'm an only child so I don't have any brothers to compare myself to -- maybe fortunately -- and I think my childhood was quite different to most people's, so it's not comparable there either.  I was fortunate enough to have my grandfather bring me up like I feel he would have done a son, playing war with my father's old Corgi tanks and some cheap plastic figurines, building things out of scraps of wood and plastic, and even to this day he calls me "mate" and "boss" and other things which seem more male than female to me.  Ironically he's one of the most bigoted people I've ever met.  If all of my family was more like my grandmother I don't know how I'd have turned out, she's oblivious to the fact I'm not her little granddaughter who wants everything to be pink and girly when absolutely every one else has noticed this.  I can barely bring my self to hold a conversation with her the amount of dysphoria she causes me (among other things such as constantly mocking me at every turn).

I know what you mean. Well, the 'if I had been cis male, this would be normal' thing. *Wistfully thinking back to all the suspensions and near expulsions in elementary school, where the cis males involved never got in trouble*

I completely get what you mean! I always had a lot of trouble making friends, and I think it had a lot to do with how I came across, because I was trying really hard to fit in as a straight girl in Orange County, but I always acted like the guys trying to prove myself and stuff. I'm sure it threw everybody off. I know my life would have been a lot different had i been born cis and I don't think I'd have the social anxiety I have now. I might have been playing professional basketball somewhere right now had I been born correctly. It could have been COMPLETELY different. Who knows?

I hope you gentlemen don't mind me sticking my nose in here but I TOTALLY understand how it feels because I was the opposite! From childhood onward I simply didn't fit in my birth sex and it got so bad in my teens people simply didn't believe I was male (which was okay with me). On the bright side, it sure made transition easy! Nobody ever suspected I had ever been otherwise (which of course I wasn't LOL!)

I understand where you are coming from. I wasn't able to get along with women properly until I was an adult. In school, a lot of girls tried to be nice to me, but they didn't understand my behaviour or reactions at all. The only friends I had were the girls who were social misfits in some way - actually, I was friends with a lot of the girls who did drugs. They never pressured me to do it, as they knew I wasn't into it, I think they just saw me as someone who wouldn't pass judgment on them.

I had trouble socializing with guys too though, because most of them too my difference as an excuse to pick on me. I learned very quickly that I wanted nothing to do with the males in my school, and found the women who would accept me.

But yeah, there was a lot of friction. My mom said once "people see you as a domineering woman." Wtf mom. I did reach a point where I would stand my ground a lot, because people would ask me rude questions about my sexual orientation (not out as trans just yet) and about the fact that I was a feminist. A lot of people somehow found it threatening that I was such an open "lesbian." I guess a lot of lesbians they knew experimented with guys, and when they asked if I had, I said "no" and they thought I was being "close-minded." A lot of people, even women, took it as a challenge.

I understand.  I was pretty aggressive as a girl back then and I'm still that way now while living as a female.  I never had many friends....some associates but that was about it.  To this day I am socially crippled because of my ->-bleeped-<-.  I especially have a hard time socializing since I feel like I'm living a lie.

Yeah, I've always acted more masculine. I kind of knew it, but didn't pay a ton of attention to it, because, for the most part, my parents let me do 'boy stuff' without protest.  I was really lucky in that regard.  I would always take anything deemed 'manly' as a challenge (unless it was sports. I suck at sports), and though I kind of mocked guys who felt like they had to prove their masculinity... I was always doing the same thing myself. I couldn't stand to be seen as just a girl and had to prove I could do the guy stuff as well as the guys.

And apparently I do come off as a lesbian, though I didn't pick up on that for awhile either. I started guessing at it eventually, and one of the few friends I've come out to told me she'd always seen me as very masculine and her friends had misread me as lesbian. She'd just tell them they didn't know me.  I'm like 100% gay, so it strikes me as pretty funny.

I recall someone saying this a while ago, in response to a discussion about the supposed higher rate of aspergers/autism among FTMs.  It seems like a lot of FTMs act more masculine before coming out, but since these behaviors are considered unusual for a female they're labeled with having aspergers.  Men tend to talk in more of a flat tone with less emotion, for example.  I've always done this.  One of the traits of aspergers and autism is a lack of expressed emotion.  Many people with aspergers are also socially awkward or just prefer being alone, but this is also true of people suffering extreme anxiety related to dysphoria.

After transitioning my behavior was no longer seen as weird, but as normal guy behavior.  I always related better to guys, and now have an easier time relating to women too since I'm no longer expected to act like them.

Quote from: Sly on July 13, 2013, 04:37:24 PM
After transitioning my behavior was no longer seen as weird, but as normal guy behavior.  I always related better to guys, and now have an easier time relating to women too since I'm no longer expected to act like them.

That gives me hope.  I already deal better with women after acknowledging I'm trans, as I no longer feel required to act like them, but I'm also sick of still getting treated like a girl (not passing yet)

I forgot to mention, lol, I have some incongrueties now as well. I actually used to laugh to myself. Before I was out everyone was like "omg so butch you big bulldagger." And then when they knew I was male, they were like "wow if you're going to be a man you better act differently, you're way too effeminate and sensitive!"

Make up your minds people. I do believe I occupy a comfortable androgynous space in terms of how I act in gendered terms though.

Quote from: Ketchup Packet on July 18, 2013, 12:52:45 AM
I forgot to mention, lol, I have some incongrueties now as well. I actually used to laugh to myself. Before I was out everyone was like "omg so butch you big bulldagger." And then when they knew I was male, they were like "wow if you're going to be a man you better act differently, you're way too effeminate and sensitive!"

Make up your minds people. I do believe I occupy a comfortable androgynous space in terms of how I act in gendered terms though.

lols, I totally got this as well. Before coming out: "god you're such a guy, you need to be more ladylike!" -  after coming out: "but...you're so feminine!" ... wait what? Getting mixed messages here people.

I find it both hilarious and saddening that women are constantly pressured to watch how they behave/dress/speak/breath ... my core personality has not changed, sure I'm no longer depressed but other than that I still act and talk the exact same way as before.

Yet I was always described as having "an attitude problem" as a girl. People would constantly belittle me and not take me seriously; then be all "god what's wrong with you, no need to bite my head off" when I defended myself -_- ...  I was always told I was too blunt and tactless

Now in the exact same scenarios I'm magically perceived as assertive, confident, a straight talker...which essentially describe the exact same personality traits, only the connotations are more positive.

Society is ridiculous.

Quote from: Jeatyn on July 18, 2013, 05:02:43 PM
Yet I was always described as having "an attitude problem" as a girl. People would constantly belittle me and not take me seriously; then be all "god what's wrong with you, no need to bite my head off" when I defended myself -_- ...  I was always told I was too blunt and tactless

Now in the exact same scenarios I'm magically perceived as assertive, confident, a straight talker...which essentially describe the exact same personality traits, only the connotations are more positive.

Society is ridiculous.

This, yes.  As someone who's not yet passing, I do so hate this.  Even before I admitted I was trans I would always think "you wouldn't treat me like this if I were a man".  I look forward to the day I can escape it. 

QuoteI understand.  I was pretty aggressive as a girl back then and I'm still that way now while living as a female.  I never had many friends....some associates but that was about it.  To this day I am socially crippled because of my ->-bleeped-<-.  I especially have a hard time socializing since I feel like I'm living a lie.

Yep, I understand this all too well. I'm not aggressive per se, I just have my opinions and I state them. I am not ashamed to come out and say "I don't like X" or "here's what I think and that's that". Blunt, I suppose. I'm also very quiet, introverted. I don't talk much and when I do, it is usually pretty straightforward stuff. I only have a few family members and friends that I'm really comfortable with. I don't socialize much and I strive to organize my life around minimizing my need to socialize.

I do feel dishonest most of the time because the world around me is very binary. I live in a very conservative area and there is no T in my very small local LGBT community. I feel as if I have to keep the lie going just to get through life. It sucks.

QuoteI know for a fact that I would definitely have turned out different had I been born cismale. I know this because my parents encouraged and pushed my brother to achieve, and he has a huge overdose of self-confidence as a result. But they continuously discouraged me and left me to rot

I have no brothers to compare myself to. I have 3 sisters, one who several years older and two that are younger, but not by much. They are all girly girls, all beautiful, all of them look like my mom who is much lighter skinned and fair-haired than my dad. And there's me. I have dark hair, dark skin, brown eyes, I'm taller, muscular build, tomboy butch whatever...

If I had been born a guy, my parents would have went to the moon and back. There are no men on my dad's side of the family to carry on the family name, so it would have been a big to-do. My parents made comments in the past about how if I'd been a boy, they'd have stayed in the area where we are originally from, sent me to private schools, and lots of other things. But since I was a girl, who cares? My 3rd sister was a foster child that my parents adopted as a teenager when I was in college, my youngest sister is not actually my sister, but oldest sister's kid whom my parents adopted as a toddler. So I was the dealbreaker.

I was left to rot in some ways. When I started doing BMX and Motorcross, my parents never took it seriously. Wouldn't let me enter competitions. If I'd been a guy, they'd probably have been gung-ho about it. When I became obsessed with math and sciences and decided to pursue my interests as a career, no response. No encouragement. Nothing except "How you meet a nice boy if you're always in the lab/studying/fiddling with computers, code, etc?" Instead of going to good schools, I went to Crapville Community school until Jr High, when I went to a crowded mediocre public school. Didn't go to regular high school, went to a night school academy so I could graduate early and get on with my life.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on July 11, 2013, 10:46:20 AM
Yup - I do!

Before I came out, I used to be considered too aggressive for a girl because I was simply acting like myself, but that's not very ladylike (ugh, that word!). It even became a bit of a joke in our office because I famously tore into a printer salesman who tried to 'mansplain' printing to me even though I'm in my third decade in my field. Additionally, you can imagine my car mechanic's reaction when I ripped him a new one because he did an oil change on my car but forgot to put any fresh oil in it (he didn't know what hit him). But this has changed since coming out: now my behaviour is simply considered normal.

My social dysphoria is the strongest dysphoria I have; followed closely by my dysphoria about my hips & chest. I'm not particularly worried about my privates; I'm just a bit sad & disappointed that they'll never be what they were supposed to be.

I know for a fact that I would definitely have turned out different had I been born cismale. I know this because my parents encouraged and pushed my brother to achieve, and he has a huge overdose of self-confidence as a result. But they continuously discouraged me and left me to rot, presuming that I'd grow up to get a nice little job to keep me occupied for a couple of years before marrying the boss/doctor/whatever and being kept by him, and as a result I struggle with my self-confidence. My mother was so dead-set against me improving and asserting myself that when I did my first management course at age 19, she called me a 'jumped-up little so & so'.

I wish they'd raised me like him. That, coupled with a complete absence of social and physical dysphoria, would definitely have made me a different person. But would it have made me a better person? I highly doubt it.

I can totally relate to your stories of being "too aggressive" for a "female" in society's eyes. Been there, done that. However, my parents actually DID encourage me. As far as I can tell, they did raise me more male in that respect - told me I could do anything if I set my mind to it, that I was smart, that I had talent, etc. They bought me all kinds of cool stuff that normally would have just been for boys in the 70's and 80's. My mom simply took the position of passing me off as a "tom boy" to people as an explanation. Now and then she'd try to foist feminine b.s. on me (mostly past the age of 12), but I would reject it every time, then my dad would stick up for me. They knew from the get-go they didn't have an "average little girl" on their hands though too, so that might have helped.

That's not to say I don't understand the op's social dysphoria though, because I definitely do. However, one thing I've noted over time is that if you act (and I say act, but we all know that really equals being yourself in many of our cases) the part, other people will respond. For instance, the way you carry yourself, or assert yourself, or even the way you speak can be read as male. Now for me, if I'm around other guys, I will just be myself, and typically, they will not treat me like a female – even in my unique case where I'm not transitioning (of course I don't really look super female either). Often times, other women look at me kind of funny, probably because they may see "female" but not get that vibe, and therefore I trip them out haha.

I got to grow up the tomboy. My parents didn't push any of their kids (of both sexes) to achieve, but are supportive of both queer offspring. I never liked sports too much. I don't like action movies and don't play many video games. I'm even really bad with technology. "Gross things" are awesome though. I plan on getting an Entomology degree (insects) and working in the field. Only really girly thing I like is sawing and making costumes and masks, which people of both sexes are jealous of my skills. At the same time even passing as male both sexes think I'm weird. I tend to say and to some odds things. But all of the people I pass to treat me as male.  I'm generally mistaken for a gay man in the beginning though.
All my siblings have talked to my parents saying they think I have aspergers. I believe it a little because I don't feel I have real common ground on things to talk about with either. I don't think I'd be any different.

I dunno, growing up in the sticks, everyone here was always pretty tomboy growing up, so I didn't stick out too much. Yeah, the girls grew up to be feminine, but this is still the country, so even a lot of the most feminine ones don't mind and actually enjoy outdoors-y boy stuff.

I think I only really stood out in Elementary school when I would hang out at the boy's table for lunch. The girls always made fun of me for that, but I was a total extrovert as a child, so I got along with everyone, guys and girls, regardless. I'm incredibly socially awkward now, but I make the most of it. I always acknowledge when I do or say stupid stuff, and I think that makes me actually stand out less than if I were to just sit on the sidelines quietly (which I used to do for a while there when my anxiety was at its worst).

I think because I'm not too quiet, I fit in better with my male friends and get along with them better as "one of the guys", although they still look at me weird when I refer to myself as a guy (just something I've always done, I don't even notice it until someone says something). But other than that people just seem to accept me for what I am.

My parents always knew I wasn't any bit feminine, and I guess they just thought it was a phase or something. Although because my sister was feminine, she and my mom got along too well, and they would constantly gang up on me and make fun of me for my big man feet, my hairy arms and legs, my little mustache or my nose. So obviously my self-esteem is non-existant, and even though I'm glad to have these masculine parts of my body naturally, I still feel ashamed to look this way. I don't think I'll ever be proud of my appearance no matter how masculine and gorgeous I may end up turning out, just because I've been trained to hate myself. So...I guess that made things a little harder on me...If I'd grown up in a completely male body, I never would have been made to feel this way about my body. I'd probably in all honestly have little to no anxiety issues and would be a lot more successful in my life because of that.

Growing up, my female friends would always try to force makeup on me, and I would violently protest every part of that. So I guess they thought that was a little strange. But like I said, around here, there's plenty of more boy-ish girls who wear loose clothes and no makeup, so it never really caused any problems that I didn't follow any sort of norm.

I think the fact that I'm not feminine in any way is what attracts guys to be friends with me. My one friend even told me what he likes about me is that I'm "no bull->-bleeped-<-"--I say what I'm thinking and don't like drama or gossip.

Funny thing, I got much more outgoing as a male. I suppose it is because I am comfortable in my own skin. So much so my therapist asked me if my autism was "better". I don't think he knows that much about autism, but he's right in a way.

--Jay