Quote from: suzifrommd on July 19, 2013, 09:19:13 AM
Not all Christians have a problem with people using the proper bathrooms.

Agreed.  As a Christian myself, if this Bathroom Bill is "sweeping the nation", then I would to provide a broomstick to help!

Quote from: StellaB on July 19, 2013, 02:52:36 PM
If I were in the States it wouldn't be a bathroom I'd be worrying about. I'd be terrified to go anywhere near a church.

Not all churches are like this. Anyone notice that these groups really don't represent churches or any particular faith. Kind of like a bunch of televangelists got together and said, "hmmm... we can make even more money if we  do this." Not accusing anyone of anything but just puttin' it out there. Seems like everyone of these groups have some famous talking head that has been in the TV realm of religion. Could just be me though.

Quote from: Miss Bungle on July 19, 2013, 03:37:47 PM
Well, to be fair, I have come across some religious folks that were open-minded and very cool. They just happen to be in the minority of the ones I have encountered throughout my life so far.

Me too Miss Bungle. Kind of why I wrote what I did. A lot of the religious people that I run across seem more indifferent to the LGBT community in a live and let live sort of way. A few may say something negative but it's not the hate filled speech that comes from these particular groups at least.

Quote from: StellaB on July 19, 2013, 02:52:36 PM
If I were in the States it wouldn't be a bathroom I'd be worrying about. I'd be terrified to go anywhere near a church.

I got a standing ovation at my church when I spoke about being trans. Not all churches are anti-trans and/or anti-queer. My church even has 2 out-of-the-closet lesbian pastors.

I wasn't being entirely serious ...

But being serious I refuse to accept that following any major religion is a barrier to accepting those of us who are trans and feel that the objections are far more to do with individual prejudices than whatever God wants or what is written in scriptures such as the Bible or Koran.

Most of the support I have from people come from people who are religious and off the top of my head I'd say that around half are devout Catholics.

Quote from: StellaB on July 19, 2013, 05:48:36 PM
I wasn't being entirely serious ...

But being serious I refuse to accept that following any major religion is a barrier to accepting those of us who are trans and feel that the objections are far more to do with individual prejudices than whatever God wants or what is written in scriptures such as the Bible or Koran.

Most of the support I have from people come from people who are religious and off the top of my head I'd say that around half are devout Catholics.

OH! Sorry. 

Quote from: StellaB on July 19, 2013, 05:48:36 PM
I wasn't being entirely serious ...

But being serious I refuse to accept that following any major religion is a barrier to accepting those of us who are trans and feel that the objections are far more to do with individual prejudices than whatever God wants or what is written in scriptures such as the Bible or Koran.

Most of the support I have from people come from people who are religious and off the top of my head I'd say that around half are devout Catholics.

I figured that you weren't being all that serious but on the other hand it's hard to tell. Here in the states we have so many different offshoots from Christianity that you really can't ever tell what somone from another country might have heard or seen. For instance we have certain religions in the Appalachian Mountains that actually handle poisonous snakes. It is against the law but they still do it. They are pretty narrow in what is acceptable to them. Also where I grew up there are the Pentecostals, another with a narrow acceptance of people in which I have actually experienced personally in my life. In other countries that I have experienced there may be one or two differing religions but here, I don't have enough fingers and toes to count them. We even have the Church of Satan, the real one founded by Anton Szandor LeVey, not Hollywood's version.

Oh I totally wish that this comes true in Germany as well. Law that gives me the right to use the bathroom I choose based on my gender identity? That would make it a lot easier for me since this is one of my biggest concerns while transitioning. I fear that I will be clearly visible as a man in womens clothes for a long time.

Sometimes I'm jealousy of American people.

One 'common sense' response, posted elsewhere, reprinted by permission:

Quote from: I'd have thought the obvious thing is to move to the standards of some European countries where they rarely have separate bathrooms for the sexes.
It takes some getting used to, standing at a urinal while a woman walks by behind you.. but it's only cultural and at least you CAN still stand!

I was talking to a Scandinavian friend of mine recently as he described a sequence of events that has been playing out at work.
1.Feminists wanted to ban men from standing to pee. (Truly, it's just as well I'd already heard of this kind of thing because I just wouldn't have believed him otherwise.)
2.Eventually, there was a board meeting where the numbers of feminists in attendance outnumbered the number of anti-feminists (apparently they all know who they are, since a number of women are there on made-up positions to meet quota).
3.The company decided men shouldn't pee and the men's toilets should be converted to only have stalls. Even in fairly new toilets. Despite the cost, which had no commercial benefit and wasn't even financially justified.
4.This meant that the men's toilets, which used to be big enough, could no longer cope with the number of men needing them, since you can get more men-per-metre standing at a urinal than you can using a lavatory in a stall.
5.Since the women's toilets were, and always had been, larger than the men's, they had more stalls. The company has a predominance of male employees so to equal out the usage of toilets, they switched them around so that men used the larger ones and women now had to use the smaller toilets.
6.This relieved the problem to a large extent for men but women sometimes have to queue now, just like men have to do on occasion, still.
7.Women are not happy with being downgraded and have backed a company-based 'suggestion' scheme to put urinals back into the smaller (now women's) toilets so that men could use the urinals there.
8.Men (many of whom grumbled at the entire nonsense) are fighting this, since the company has a profit-sharing scheme and they say they'd rather put up with things as they are than take yet another drop in their bonus.


The feminists on the board are using men's current attitudes to show how their policies have been accepted by the men in the company!

I tell you, I was almost pissing myself as my friend recounted all of this. He's near retirement, which is just as well because he seems no longer able to see the funny side, as he fights daily to return some profit to shareholders despite all the stupidity going on around him.

You like this.

There is so much fear mongering done by supposedly Christian organizations which only serves to alienate people and give Christ a black eye. Jesus said, "He who is with me gathers, and he who is against me scatters!" It looks to me as if they are doing a fine job of scattering which leads me to believe that they are not Christians at all. Perhaps their 501- C tax exempt status ought to be pulled along with that of a few thousand churches and then we'll see who the real Christians are. Meanwhile you can bet that the fear mongering organizations are using the bathroom issue simply to gain donations from those who are completely ignorant of trans people and have had no exposure to them in their own lives and are having a knee jerk reaction.

 James 4:11-12 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Fundamental Christians please take note!

Quote from: Amanda M on July 22, 2013, 01:58:38 PM
James 4:11-12 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Fundamental Christians please take note!

I actually taught that scripture to my Sunday School kids yesterday along with the topic of "controlling your tounge".  Some of these "Christians" should have been sitting in that classroom that I taught. 

Quote from: Beth Andrea on July 19, 2013, 01:22:06 PM

What we need is some way to punish the men who have done such a crime...like when someone commits a "hate crime", the punishment is doubled. Likewise, if someone dresses as a policeman and commits a crime, that adds a bit more punishment.

We should ask for the same consideration to reduce their concerns (and ours).

Most U.S. states have False Personation laws that cover more than just "impersonating an officer".  Falsely impersonating someone with GD, which becomes a protected class of citizen under ENDA laws and can be tried as a separate crime from whatever mischief they pulled, and the courts can add it on consecutively as a sentence to the major crime.  There could also be a variety of other counts. 

Just love to send Buck Angel over to use the ladies room!!!


--Jay

Quote from: StellaB on July 19, 2013, 05:48:36 PM
I wasn't being entirely serious ...

But being serious I refuse to accept that following any major religion is a barrier to accepting those of us who are trans and feel that the objections are far more to do with individual prejudices than whatever God wants or what is written in scriptures such as the Bible or Koran.

Most of the support I have from people come from people who are religious and off the top of my head I'd say that around half are devout Catholics.

Well then your experience is entirely opposite mine - I have had zero support from churches, every one has rejected me

they bring me in just to call me names and then to horrible things to me and try to make me change, I as even put through reparative therapy and they stopped me from having SRS

I should be 23 years post-op I had the money and a surgeon lined up and all there are bad churches out there

Why is the separation with public restrooms even necessary? If they were all unisex multi-user facilities the problem of usage would be eliminated. All that you need is private stalls.

I recall the bit in Genesis where Adam and Eve had separate bathrooms it's in section.........

Quote from: Cindy on November 10, 2013, 07:40:37 AM
I recall the bit in Genesis where Adam and Eve had separate bathrooms it's in section.........

Isn't that after she bitched at him for wearing her fig leaf? 

Quote from: Shantel on November 10, 2013, 08:48:53 AM
Isn't that after she bitched at him for wearing her fig leaf? 

Cross leafing is banned in Leviticus, the bit where you can't be a tree otherwise you get wet rot.

Must actually read the bible one day! (sorry I do not mean that with disrespect to a Holy Book)

But then I was banned from religion classes at a Christian College School when I was nine. Then it was an all male school except for me. I think I was me even when a kid

Quote from: Cindy on November 10, 2013, 09:00:06 AM
Cross leafing is banned in Leviticus, the bit where you can't be a tree otherwise you get wet rot.

Must actually read the bible one day! (sorry I do not mean that with disrespect to a Holy Book)

But then I was banned from religion classes at a Christian College School when I was nine. Then it was an all male school except for me. I think I was me even when a kid

Don't sweat the small stuff, I've been known to cry, yell and swear when I pray. I'm sure it would seem disrespectful but at least I'm being honest about my feelings. I get the feeling that the "Big Kahuna" has a sense of humor and knows us better than we do. Anyway I still think that cross leafing is pretty erotic.