Shantel (yeah that WAS a bad time!!) anyway, I kind of identify with that. I feel happy to transition, as I didn't know I could. I sort of privileged in a way. I think since I am older, I just didn't know I could ever do this so that know that I know I am really happy. Hope this makes sense.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on July 22, 2013, 11:55:12 AM
Shantel (yeah that WAS a bad time!!) anyway, I kind of identify with that. I feel happy to transition, as I didn't know I could. I sort of privileged in a way. I think since I am older, I just didn't know I could ever do this so that know that I know I am really happy. Hope this makes sense.

--Jay

Makes perfect sense to me Jay, I relate completely..(hugs)

You don't have to feel depressed.  People experience things differently.  It does invalidate or invalidate anything.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 21, 2013, 10:18:00 PM
Well I don't think you have to be suicidal but in order to be diagnosed with GID, don't you have to be experiencing some level of distress. I mean the D is GID stands for dysphoria which means a state of being significantly unwell or unhappy. Does that have to mean suicidal? No. But I identify as transsexual not transgender. It may be different for transgender people. For me, it's not about clothes or being "who I am" it is about correcting what I know is wrong. I feel like something went horribbly wrong in utero and I developed as male when I was supposed to develop as female. And it is not so much about correcting my gender as it is my sex. It is all about the physical sex charecteristics. I will not feel complete until SRS. And yeah I realize that I will never be actually female but that is as close as I can get and that's what I aim for.

I guess it comes down to I have had severe empotional problems since I was 6 and if there was anything else I could do to stop this I would. I have prolly tried it to. Suicide. check. 10s of therapists check. Heroin. Check. Nothing works. Right now is prolly the closest I've ever felt to being somewhat comfortable in my skin.

I just thin when I read some comments like this that being trans is no big deal when I am heroin addict because of it is really invalidating and makes me feel awful. Like I am some kind of bad guy just for fitting in some narrative that I barely knew existed before and didn't think was a big deal. I actually get very turned off by how political being trans seems to be. I consider a medical condition yet it has this political component. I won't lie it annoys me and the people who make it political aggravate me because they making my life harder then neccesary.

I think it's great you feel this way but I don't think I will ever really get over the hurt of being born male and never being able to conceive and always being different. I just want to be normal.

I actually feel it is excactly the opposite. I feel like I get made out to be an elitist just for having the life experience I have. My life has been horrible. You prolly wouldn't believe me if I told you. But I really don't think there is a narrative. People accused me of that and I really feel like they were trying to justify their transitioning and it was total projection. I can't help that I fit some criteria of having expereinced GID since age 6. I just think it is unfair to be called out for something I can't change and certainly don't want. I hate being trans and just wish I was cis. In fact, I feel out of place in trans circles because I know very few people who have always known and if you are this way you get called an elitist. It's unfair. Point blank. And it is invalidating. I actually expected when I first started coming to trans places to finally meet people like me and to finally be able to relate to people and all I have found is that even here I'm a weirdo.

That being said, I do agree you don;t have to have had my crappy life to be trans. Far form it. I just think you should have to expereince some level of discomfort with your gender to have GID.

I'm not trying to offend anyone and hop I didn't but I just sometimes feel really invalidated when people act like being trans isn't a big thing and that transitioning is just some thing people do. For me it is the only thing. And not a choice. The only alternative is suidice or heroin. And i've tried both. And the latter is the only reason I made it to 30.

Thank you for saying this.  My story isn't exactly alike the narrative, but it is somewhat close to it.  I feel a little insulted when people refer to me as an elitist or a dishonest person because my experience was different than theirs.  I'm sure those who feel vilified for not fitting into the narrative get the same things from those on the other side.  I have seen it before (not here) and some people are just ridiculously nasty to other trans people who are finding themselves or those with confusion/doubts.  We all go through things differently. Let's respect that.

By the way, this isn't directed at the op or the people in this thread because no one said anything harmful or insulting.  I took no offense to any of the statements made above.  I just see this sentiment pop up sometimes and wanted to address it.  For such a diverse community that should be open minded we often have people with narrow minded and dogmatic views when it comes to some things.  It doesn't occur here that much, but I have encountered it in other places and it is disheartening that people create their own personal rules and regulations about what being trans is and whether one should be accepted. 

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 04:07:05 AM
Oh, be warned. Thinking about Yourself in 10-20-30 years and realising that You might still be a man then, getting older, sadder, balding and such... Now THIS might be the turning point and get You into suicidal mode. When I was in my teens I had no information about transsexuality and GD and thus I had absolutely no idea WTF was going inside of me and the source of that constant sadness and alienating inside. Yet, I was toying with the idea of suicide, but that went away after I made one "exploring" attempt, which was never found out anyway.

Quote from: Fitter Admin on July 21, 2013, 06:16:36 PMAlso, someone who may not feel depressed at 20 or 30 may feel differently at 40 or 50 or older. There are a lot of people who transition in middle age and beyond with suicidal feelings. I'm guessing they must not always have been that desperate or they wouldn't have survived that long.
Of course, not saying that every trans person will feel that way given enough time; just that this thing tends to get worse.

That makes sense TBH it explains a few things I did always wonder how someone could have lasted 40+ years of that hell when I tried to understand others from my own experience... My narrative dose involve extreme depression throughout and numerous suicidal swings stemming from my dysphoria. which started as my male puberty triggered then got progressively worse over the next 10years, to survive I relied on a number of rather extreme and dangerous coping techniques even then I realized my body couldn't take much more of the abuse I was throwing at it.

So I thought... "Well maybe they weren't depressed?" but then I'm baffled about why anyone would risk the devastation that Transition brings to your life.

note I'm not nor have I ever been in the business of deciding who is and who isn't trans, even if I didn't understand something I realized that I lacked a complete picture.

It seems to me that the TS and the TG narratives are completely different, and their differences need to be respected. In places where younger trans* people are talking about things, "transgender" seems to be the catch-all term now, and I've seen folks become controversial after stating that they think there is a difference between body dysphoria and social dysphoria (which I think is the main diff between being TG and TS). But that just seems like a given to me. Of course I'm different than someone who is in a body with the wrong anatomy. Of course that's going to be much harder to cope with.

I know some people might not appreciate me bringing "sex" into this sort of discussion, but it's how I can relate the story of an unhappy pathology that gets co-opted by others to describe their less-than spectacular differentness. I get mad when I see the word "fetish" being used the way it currently is these days. Where are the people who suffer from their proclivities like I do? The ones who take medication to dull their libido, the ones who drink when they find themselves particularly wanting something that was never meant to be theirs? I'm never going to be able to go up to someone and say "hey, I'd like to have this experience with you". I've experienced dissociation because of it, done damage to my body because of it, I've thought myself unlovable scum because of it. My experience is fundamentally different than that of someone who just likes being tied up in bed. They don't know that, and it's something I'm coming to grips with.

What helps me (and gosh do I feel alone in this) is knowing that there are words to differentiate me from them. They're not pretty words, but I'm reclaiming them for myself.

If "transsexual" is falling out of fashion for being "politically incorrect", this is a bad idea to me. There need to be words and labels and communities fir people like Joanna.

-hugs-

I too feel very much the same way Joanna does.  I think narratives are interesting.  I find that the narrative I use to describe my past is ever-evolving just on a semantic level (semantics do matter, they change the feeling of things in major ways, even if the words mean technically the same thing) but that is a different issue than the trans narrative being talked about here, so I won't digress. 

There are many things I don't understand because they just don't match my experience.  I would never be able to understand transitioning just cause you felt like it.  Is that really a thing?   No way on earth I would have transitioned if I never reached being suicidal.  I don't feel one way or another about somebody having a different story though, I just don't personally understand it.  I don't get why you would do it. There are many things in life I don't understand though and mostly I am thankful for such things.   They make the world more vibrant.  I wish the politics would just go away, and I think they will eventually because I think most people in their 30s and younger really just don't care about that fight.  It's a generational thing for sure.

I do strive for a positive attitude and mostly I have had one post transition, but I fail and fall sometimes.  Maybe when I have fixed everything I can physically that will happen even less often.  Before I'm post op though, I know I will have down days.   Everything is so much better now though, don't get me wrong.  Life is beautiful.  I also want to say that I always appreciate Jenny's attitude and I find it very uplifting. I do want to see the positive side of being trans more often.

Quote from: pebbles on July 22, 2013, 01:23:48 PM
"which started as my male puberty triggered then got progressively worse over the next 10years, to survive I relied on a number of rather extreme and dangerous coping techniques even then I realized my body couldn't take much more of the abuse I was throwing at it.

You know, I was recently thinking about this kind of practices - because I did essentially the same (I still wonder that I am alive and not handicapped, btw . So, my theory is that these coping techniques either provide a strong adrenaline boost (extreme and dangerous ones), or dopamine boost (dulling workouts) or testosterone - or maybe everything afore-mentioned. Those doses might be enough to provide a temporary oblivion - namely, by convincing the mind/brain that it is of  a male pattern, and so the dysphoria will decrease or go away - once again, temporarily. And is this works, then subconsciously, the brain will seek these experiences again and again, and as the senses will dull, it will require new activities, new degrees of risk and danger, because it wants to survive - even if the body might be destroyed in the process. I see that this always present risk of self-destruction provides additional adrenaline boost, plus it eases possible suicidal tendencies, because death still might happen at any moment and there is no need for direct actions in order to facilitate its coming. I apologise if that all sounds not very comprehensive, but I am neither medic professional, nor psychologist . I am just trying to look at things from another perspective and use my "first hand" experience and feelings in the process .

Quote from: Lo on July 22, 2013, 01:26:39 PM
It seems to me that the TS and the TG narratives are completely different, and their differences need to be respected. In places where younger trans* people are talking about things, "transgender" seems to be the catch-all term now, and I've seen folks become controversial after stating that they think there is a difference between body dysphoria and social dysphoria (which I think is the main diff between being TG and TS). But that just seems like a given to me. Of course I'm different than someone who is in a body with the wrong anatomy. Of course that's going to be much harder to cope with.

I know some people might not appreciate me bringing "sex" into this sort of discussion, but it's how I can relate the story of an unhappy pathology that gets co-opted by others to describe their less-than spectacular differentness. I get mad when I see the word "fetish" being used the way it currently is these days. Where are the people who suffer from their proclivities like I do? The ones who take medication to dull their libido, the ones who drink when they find themselves particularly wanting something that was never meant to be theirs? I'm never going to be able to go up to someone and say "hey, I'd like to have this experience with you". I've experienced dissociation because of it, done damage to my body because of it, I've thought myself unlovable scum because of it. My experience is fundamentally different than that of someone who just likes being tied up in bed. They don't know that, and it's something I'm coming to grips with.

What helps me (and gosh do I feel alone in this) is knowing that there are words to differentiate me from them. They're not pretty words, but I'm reclaiming them for myself.

If "transsexual" is falling out of fashion for being "politically incorrect", this is a bad idea to me. There need to be words and labels and communities fir people like Joanna.

-hugs-

I don't like the term transsexual, even though that is where I fall.  I personally like that the term trans woman/man seems to be more on the rise and I think it fits TS people perfectly.  It makes trans and adjective instead of the noun, which is exactly how I feel it should be used with me.  "Trans" informs where I come from and experiences I have had, kind of like race or age or socioeconomic stuff or whatever other adjectives people use.  The noun is "woman." That is who I am.

Quote from: Jen on July 22, 2013, 01:56:15 PM
I don't like the term transsexual, even though that is where I fall.  I personally like that the term trans woman/man seems to be more on the rise and I think it fits TS people perfectly.  It makes trans and adjective instead of the noun, which is exactly how I feel it should be used with me.  "Trans" informs where I come from and experiences I have had, kind of like race or age or socioeconomic stuff or whatever other adjectives people use.  The noun is "woman." That is who I am.

It is clunky, and I won't admit to knowing what language is needed or not needed for certain trans* people, though I am of the mind that more language will do much more good than harm. Sorry if I said something wrong, I'm still learning about the ins and outs of reclaimed words and words that have no use anymore.

QuoteI would never be able to understand transitioning just cause you felt like it. Is that really a thing?   No way on earth I would have transitioned if I never reached being suicidal.

I can only speak for myself here, but I think it's definitely possible. For me, when I had my pregnancy scare, it was the most horrible pit of despair I'd ever fallen into and it was my Big Trans* Wake-Up Call; I might even wager a guess and say it felt worse than when I was entertaining suicide. I hated and feared my body like never before (or since), and if it were actually the real deal and not a false alarm, there's no telling how much worse it would have been for me. I've been suicidal before (once in response to abuse and once in response to depression), so for me, the surgical sterilization I want is 100% to prevent dysphoria like that from happening ever again. A big cornerstone of my physical gender is being incapable of reproducing. I'm more or less "okay" with the way things are now (frustration and social anxiety aside), it's definitely not bad. But I know that it has the potential to get really ugly, so I'm going to do everything in my power to keep that suicidal dysphoria from happening in the future. It is kind of weird to know that I'm making the conscious, sober, and deliberate choice to do this, though. Right now it's a very strong want more than a need, but I don't want to wait for it to get to be a need.

I think it is interesting the different forms things can take.  The way you describe that does help me understand things a lil better.

And obv I don't personally feel trans as a adjective is clunky at all, but I do acknowledge that it only works for a narrow group, but it's the group I belong to, so I like it.  People for whom it doesn't work may feel free to use their own terms .

Quote from: Jen on July 22, 2013, 01:51:03 PM
There are many things I don't understand because they just don't match my experience.  I would never be able to understand transitioning just cause you felt like it.  Is that really a thing?   

this is a tough one. I don't think it's 100% fair. it's not like transitioning is like taking a magic pill. 
I think anyone who seriously contemplates transition is well aware of the risks and dangers.
I think on one hand saying that a person is transitioning just because they feel like it is not fair, just because they aren't suicidal doesn't mean that their decision isn't being driven by powerful forces. 
I have always been completely against medications etc and things like surgery. I believe it says an awful lot for me to consider these kinds of things. it is true, I don't yet fully understand my motivations, but I do recognise that it is something very important for me to address.

I'd also like to add that I never understood why a person would want to go and have facial fillers and botox etc.

Quote from: Jen on July 22, 2013, 01:51:03 PM
 

There are many things I don't understand because they just don't match my experience. I would never be able to understand transitioning just cause you felt like it.  Is that really a thing?   No way on earth I would have transitioned if I never reached being suicidal.  I don't feel one way or another about somebody having a different story though, I just don't personally understand it.  I don't get why you would do it. There are many things in life I don't understand though and mostly I am thankful for such things.   They make the world more vibrant.  I wish the politics would just go away, and I think they will eventually because I think most people in their 30s and younger really just don't care about that fight.  It's a generational thing for sure.

Good question! Yes I think it is a thing, just like people risk their lives climbing ice and snow covered mountains or flying to the moon, we may think (what for?) they are all looking for something. There are some like myself who become disgusted and repulsed by the social expectation for male born children to take up arms and go to exotic places and kill their people and get their own arms and legs blown off and turn into mental cases, you would be amazed at the number of former special ops people who have transitioned because they want no part of any of it anymore and have come to a place where their gender and the associated expectations have become anathema to their soul. I never considered suicide, it is contrary to my spiritual beliefs and solves absolutely nothing, but I did dearly want an entirely new life with a diametrically different role and expectations to fulfill. I wanted dearly to become a new creation physically and spiritually. Jen I think we all come at this from a variety of different directions and I find it refreshing that we are not all cast from the exact same mold which paraphrases part of your last comment of your initial post.

Thanks Shantel. I think you and I are both, um, older.

I don't know that anybody transitions because they "feel like it". I think the need has to exist at least on some level.

I also don't ID with the term "transsexual". But there are all sorts of experiences of being trans. And I have a maybe less binary view of it than some people.

--Jay

Quote from: jker86 on July 22, 2013, 09:33:45 PM
this is a tough one. I don't think it's 100% fair. it's not like transitioning is like taking a magic pill. 
I think anyone who seriously contemplates transition is well aware of the risks and dangers.
I think on one hand saying that a person is transitioning just because they feel like it is not fair, just because they aren't suicidal doesn't mean that their decision isn't being driven by powerful forces. 
I have always been completely against medications etc and things like surgery. I believe it says an awful lot for me to consider these kinds of things. it is true, I don't yet fully understand my motivations, but I do recognise that it is something very important for me to address.

I'd also like to add that I never understood why a person would want to go and have facial fillers and botox etc.

I was making a very reductionist statement, so I'm sure it isn't fair.  I think boiling things down to a probably unfair sentence is usually a sign somebody doesn't understand something, which is true in my case.

I didn't mean that I feel somebody should be suicidal before transitioning by any means, just that is what it took for me.  I wish I didn't wait.  And I am familiar with powerful forces pushing you in that direction before you finally get backed against a wall, I experienced them my whole life.

I think what I was asking about was if anybody transitions without feeling much discomfort beforehand?.  I would find those stories interesting I think, because it doesn't make that much sense to me and I would like to understand better.

Quote from: aleon515 on July 23, 2013, 12:19:00 PM
Thanks Shantel. I think you and I are both, um, older.

I don't know that anybody transitions because they "feel like it". I think the need has to exist at least on some level.

I also don't ID with the term "transsexual". But there are all sorts of experiences of being trans. And I have a maybe less binary view of it than some people.

--Jay

Hah Jay, you and I are on the same page and indeed wisdom comes with age, experience and hindsight along with buckets of frustration and tears! What a fine gentelman you have become, and I am just a curmudgeonly androgynous being stuck in non-binary suspension, but even that is better than what it was in my past. 

Quote from: Jen on July 23, 2013, 12:35:53 PM
I think what I was asking about was if anybody transitions without feeling much discomfort beforehand?.  I would find those stories interesting I think, because it doesn't make that much sense to me and I would like to understand better.

I understand where you're coming from.
I think maybe we each have different ideas of what discomfort is.
some people might feel uncomfortable if there were a pea under the mattress.
some people can sleep on lumpy ground in a field with loud music playing in the next field.
Though, these examples suggest a semblance of happiness for each individual... maybe I need to put it another way.
or maybe, I can introduce another element... yes. another person sleeps in  field and makes do with it because he/she doesn't know any different. this persons sleep was always very low quality sleep and they have many health problems as a result. one day they start to wonder if their health problems that they were coping ok with, maybe would go away if they slept in a bed.
it's not a case of feeling great distress in that scenario, more of a low quality of life that the person has gotten used to and realises that there could be a better way.
yes i think that explains one possibility of how some people could be.
at least, that is how it is for me. at the moment.

Quote from: Shantel on July 23, 2013, 09:00:36 AM
Good question! Yes I think it is a thing, just like people risk their lives climbing ice and snow covered mountains or flying to the moon, we may think (what for?) they are all looking for something. There are some like myself who become disgusted and repulsed by the social expectation for male born children to take up arms and go to exotic places and kill their people and get their own arms and legs blown off and turn into mental cases, you would be amazed at the number of former special ops people who have transitioned because they want no part of any of it anymore and have come to a place where their gender and the associated expectations have become anathema to their soul. I never considered suicide, it is contrary to my spiritual beliefs and solves absolutely nothing, but I did dearly want an entirely new life with a diametrically different role and expectations to fulfill. I wanted dearly to become a new creation physically and spiritually. Jen I think we all come at this from a variety of different directions and I find it refreshing that we are not all cast from the exact same mold which paraphrases part of your last comment of your initial post.

Shantel, I had honestly never considered anything like this, thanks for bringing it to the table.
It has certainly opened my eyes to myriad possibilities and I've learnt a lot from it.

I'm for one transitioning because I just feel like it. I can do it so why not.
I do not feel dysphoric by being a man. I will be fine if I don't transition but it will be better if I do.

I recently realized I'm transgender but I don't feel depressed by it, transition is something to aim for. Right now I have far too many other concerns to get depressed over it.

Wow,
I am so new and so extremely pleased about starting out I cant imagine being unhappy about this step, Of course i have little time out as a fulltime female as my body is just beginning to change, but my mind and soul feels so right. I have noticed I have much calmer disposition when dealing with my coleages and look forward to development. I have not had to much negative reaction yet but i still have to go in boy mode for a good part of the day thats the depressing part for me. Jenny I hope to develop a mere portion of your confidence. Love Jerri