What is right for one is not right for another. The "rules" are simply arbitrary, ie. there is no right or wrong way. Back in the day, I was incapable of saying boo to a goose, let alone running the gauntlet of boroughs Willesden and Kilburn as a visible "crossdresser". If they hadn't prescribed me HRT before RLE, I wouldn't be here today.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 01:12:28 PM
I'm I missing something? I thought RLE was to show how much you needed to change your gender and if you really wanted SRS?

Sure, but it doesn't have to be done in a way that guarantees humiliation and puts your life at risk.

Am I wrong to think this way?

I always thought that RLE was sort of field test for you to see how much you know about female social conditioning, whether you are ready to give up male social conditioning, including so called privileges, and whether you are REALLY comfortable by doing that. It is kind living in a female shoes, a real female life. I might be wrong, but lets say if I was a genetic girl, I would not be having among my daily experiences and routines some sort of walk outside and shouts like "Oh look, that is a man in female clothes!!!".
But I have to admit, if You are getting state-covered SRS in return... then it could be worth it...
For me, I most probably will have to cover expenses out of my pocket and if I would have to undergo a prior humiliation just in order to get a permission to undergo something which is classified by majority of insurance companies as "a plastic surgery" then I would be taking this case before the Strasbourg court.

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 01:40:39 PM
then I would be taking this case before the Strasbourg court.

I'm totally with you. Damn right. And it would be a class action!

SRS is NOT plastic surgery or anything like it....

One thing I will say though.. If you have the time to do that, which will take many months. Fine. But I think most people on here would like to start treatment than do something that you are not going to win.

Any of the mods will tell you that RLE is something you can't take to court. But if you want to try then, do so. But You won't be starting treatment or getting any SRS any time soon.

What is Real Life Experience?
Real-life experience (RLE) is a process where transsexual and transgender people live full-time in their preferred gender identity for a period of time, in order to demonstrate that they can live as a member of that said gender. This must be:

In the way they dress
In full or part-time employment
In college or university as a student
In a community-based volunteer roll
With family and friends
To acquire a (legal) gender-identity-appropriate first name
To provide documentation that persons other than the therapist know that the patient functions in the desired gender role.
   
A minimum period of 12 months RLE is a requirement of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health standards of care (SOC) for gender reassignment surgery.

A year containing intermittent periods of returning to the original gender are not considered to fulfill the RLE criteria for surgery. The SOC states: "Individuals cannot receive genital surgery without meeting the eligibility criteria.... The SOC provide for an individual approach for every patient; but this does not mean that the general guidelines, which specify treatment consisting of diagnostic evaluation, possible psychotherapy, hormones, and real-life experience, can be ignored."

I thought the RLE was to show you can function as a female. But really it is a relic of a time when you couldn't transition if you couldn't pass. So if you pass as female, then RLE isn't that bad all in all. I could prolly pass most of the time, if not all, pre-HRT, but still I'd be a lot uglier and if I'm constantly on edge all that really proves is how well I deal in high-stress situations, not as a woman. Up until a little while ago, i thought you had to do the RLE in the US too still which is exactly the reason I never transitioned. As soon as I found out I didn't have to, I was on HRT. Though I do feel really stupid now for not being more curious and wasting all this time. I think the RLE is good for SRS with the help of HRT. I don't see why they can't give hormones before.

Personally, I have absolutely no issue with RLE before SRS. What is unacceptable is being forced to do RLE before HRT.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 12:44:48 PM
Well, if you blend in that is fine. But what they are saying is this "if you wear a t-shirt, jeans and trainers, how is that making you look female?".

I've always felt skinny jeans were just about the most feminizing thing a young women can wear (maybe besides yoga pants).  Personally, I find "Emo/Rocker" to be just as feminine as any pink dress/heels combo.

If I was forced to wear a dress during RLE, heads would roll 

They can give HRT at the start as long as you start your RLE at the same time. No matter what you say, RLE is law and no court in this world can bend the law to what you want it to be.

If anyone can really say they won't start treatment if they have to do RLE first or at the same time, they can't want to start treatment that much.

I could be wrong, but if a person was that bad that changing there was the only way to continue with life, they would not say "but if I have to do RLE I won't do it".

Quote from: Horizon on July 22, 2013, 02:32:08 PM
I've always felt skinny jeans were just about the most feminizing thing a young women can wear (maybe besides yoga pants).  Personally, I find "Emo/Rocker" to be just as feminine as any pink dress/heels combo.

If I was forced to wear a dress during RLE, heads would roll 

Yeah skinny jeans are pretty femme. I love them and they shape my body so well. It is an undeniable female look though especially if you're on HRT and your body fat is distributing nicely.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 02:08:23 PM
One thing I will say though.. If you have the time to do that, which will take many months. Fine. But I think most people on here would like to start treatment than do something that you are not going to win.

Any of the mods will tell you that RLE is something you can't take to court. But if you want to try then, do so. But You won't be starting treatment or getting any SRS any time soon.

Well, since I am not based in the UK, I am more free in my choices about treatment, but I am covering its expenses though.
I would not be taking RLE to the Strasbourg court - but the fact of that specific actions are required by the State agency which may or may not amount into degrading treatment. And mods are not the ones to decide if the case is or is not admissible before the Strasbourg court - it is the court which decides. And, by the way, it has some interesting case-law in respect of the States providing state-covered SRS. For example, there was a case in the Switzerland which the Swiss lost, because their system required mandatory two years waiting period until someone was entitled for the SRS. The system did not take into account that someone might be of such an age that this waiting period might take her into that age range, when the person concerned became non-operational. Something to think about .

One last point - courts are not to bend to law, but to interpret it in the light of principles, which are inherent in democracy, rule of law and respect for fundamental rights. And certain courts are empowered to abrogate provisions of law which are not in conformity with the above-mentioned principles.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
If anyone can really say they won't start treatment if they have to do RLE first or at the same time, they can't want to start treatment that much.

I don't think that's an entirely fair statement.  Constant (and unnecessary) ridicule is a genuine enough concern to make one question, but the odds of being murdered go up significantly when unpassable.  With HRT beforehand, going stealth is much more achievable.

Of course, with the "man in female clothing" comment, it sounds like the UK is just trying to torture people.  Even law needs to be challenged on occasion.

No they are not. Look, you can wear female clothes in any country and if you look totally like a man in them, then that country is not trying to torture people.

But WE are MEN in female clothing!! No matter how you dress, till you have changed you will be a man in female clothes. Are you really saying that if I was in another country, I could wear the same clothes as I do now but not look like a man?

There is nothing that the UK can do to make you look like a man in female clothes. They are NOT trying to do that. What they are saying is if you look like a man wearing female clothes, that is not down to them!! The UK can't make you anymore man then you are now!!

I think all anyone is saying is that providing a person HRT before the RLE will take away the ridicule and make you more passable and thus make the RLE bearable. Not everyone can bear that type of ridicule. I mean what is the reason for not giving HRT beforehand. There isn't a good reason. It is perfectly reasonable to start HRT and then do the RLE. I can't think of one reason to be ridiculed when it won't happen if you start HRT.

I can really understand real life experience before SRS. I just can't understand why you can't be on HRT for a while first to kind of ease into it. Every little bit of feminizing first would help for the RLE. Not to mention like someone else said with all the idiots and crazies out there, it could be a recipe for disaster and that law could get someone hurt.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 03:12:12 PM
But WE are MEN in female clothing!! No matter how you dress, till you have changed you will be a man in female clothes.

Until what has changed exactly? HRT, SRS? You, we are women regardless of HRT and SRS. Isn't that why we transition?

Quote
There is nothing that the UK can do to make you look like a man in female clothes.

By not prescribing HRT.

Speaking about countries and differences. Here where I live, we do have Pride marches once per year. The first one, which was kind of "march" was a real disaster. So after the lessons had been learned, all the subsequent Pride marches took place as insider event in the park, located in the centre of the capital. Why? Because that park has a metal fence all around of it, there is HUGE presence of police officers, including fully-equiped riot police and participants and general public are kept apart by barriers. So, if they would suggest me taking 24/7/365 RLE and I would not be passable at that point of the time, then this all would be pretty much screwed and I certainly would have been taking a case before the ECHR.
I do not want to insult neither the NHS, nor the UK system as such - if that works, then at least people can get what they need (though my personal opinion is that I would never move to the UK, because laws are crazy there - flat firearms ban and You cant even own pepper spray for self-defence...).

You not understanding!! RLE has to be done in EVERY county including yours. So even if you can start HRT in your county you will have to do RLE in your country before SRS. If you think I am wrong, talk to the gender clinic you are under and see what they say.

But just so you know once and for all. if you DON'T do RLE you can never have SRS. Like I said talk to your clinic.

And if your clinic simply says "you can have SRS no matter what" then I'd think about changing clinics...

We do not have any gender clinic here, hon . We do have one private clinic which does, among other services, SRS and FFS, but they do so on the basis of psychiatric evaluation, which is done by a group of interdisciplinary experts. What they do they give You F64.0 diagnosis (transsexualism, gender dysphoria) from the ICD 10.
A couple of years ago if You wanted to talk with doctors and started with GP they either had absolutely no idea what to do with You, or You were looked upon like some sort of abomination. So, speaking about country differences... .