Bethany, if I still may be permitted to respond to the OP (I posted earlier but somehow the post didn't appear).

Would it be possible that your supervisor doesn't realize her request is illegal? If so, a low key reminder "Did you know that asking me to do that is illegal?" might help diffuse the situation.

I don't know you or your supervisor, so only you will know for sure.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
You not understanding!! RLE has to be done in EVERY county including yours. So even if you can start HRT in your county you will have to do RLE in your country before SRS. If you think I am wrong, talk to the gender clinic you are under and see what they say.

But just so you know once and for all. if you DON'T do RLE you can never have SRS. Like I said talk to your clinic.

And if your clinic simply says "you can have SRS no matter what" then I'd think about changing clinics...

Hi BethanyJade.
I humbly suggest you are misinformed regarding the above. In the countries where GRS is covered by social security being put through the hoops as is being done to you is generally the norm yes. However, in these same countries, to avoid having other people tell you how you should transition, many, if not most of us avoid going through these "official" channels. The downside is having to pay for everything yourself but personally, that is a price I am willing to pay to not have to dance to anyone's music but my own. As it happens, because I have been able to manage my transition in my own manner, I have been able to keep a decent job all through it so even with a cost benefits approach, going outside the system often makes a lot of sense.

I do however understand and accept  that not everyone is in a position to do this and really feel for those who don't have too much choice in the matter as to me, what you are being asked to do is a cruel rite of passage invented by people who seem to get their kicks out of playing around with other people's lives. I don't get angry about too much in life but this is a subject that really gets me very annoyed, even more so when the they succeed in convincing people like you that what they are imposing on you is OK.

If I had accepted a programme like the one you are presently on, a similar system exists here in France,  I would no longer have a job and be looking at finshing my life destitute or on social welfare which is not much better. Why? To prove to some seriously perverse members of the medical profession that I am willing to sacrifice everything else that counts in my life to convince them that I am genuinely transgender. That, by any standards is quite simply obscene and I believe that contrary to what these "specialists" claim, they are the ones who really need to revisit their thinking.

I was initially quite distressed by what you were going through at work, I am even more distressed to see you defend the system that has forced you down this route.

You are very courageous and I really wish you all the best but I don't agree that what you are having to go through is OK.
Bises
Donna

Donna Elvira, You speak the words of wisdom. As always

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
You not understanding!! RLE has to be done in EVERY county including yours. So even if you can start HRT in your county you will have to do RLE in your country before SRS. If you think I am wrong, talk to the gender clinic you are under and see what they say.

But just so you know once and for all. if you DON'T do RLE you can never have SRS. Like I said talk to your clinic.

And if your clinic simply says "you can have SRS no matter what" then I'd think about changing clinics...

Just to note that my health insurance is covering my transition in the country I'm in (let's just say mainland Europe), I'm on HRT and getting my facial hair removed.

While I do wear women's clothing, I limit it to stuff I can get away with while presenting male (e.g. jeans, some sweaters), and do so on my own accord. I have not presented female in public at all to date. There is no RLE prerequisite that I have to fulfil at this stage, but can do so at my leisure once I feel comfortable with it. I DO have to show RLE for the official name change and SRS, but I can get HRT etc. prior to that step without any issues. Similar to Donna I would refuse to ruin my career by having to undergo the UK method and would rather pay for it from my own pocket before that*.

(* I admit, I would also be hard pressed to have the guts to try...)

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 05:08:56 PM
Donna Elvira, You speak the words of wisdom. As always

Absolutely.

This is what I am trying to say!!! You can't have SRS until you have done RLE. Ok in some other countries you don't have to do RLE for HRT but you do have to do RLE for SRS.

Also you can't have SRS done until you've had HRT for some time.

Theo, It looks like your country IS doing everything by the book. I am just saying, that if other people are saying they can have SRS without having do do RLE or have HRT first, then I would not go near that clinic at all.

The reason why the RLE is put in place is because, once you have changed your gender and had SRS there is no going back.

If you are saying you would lose everything by wearing female clothes, that to me means, you changing gender does not matter to your job, friends or family.

You could say this "If I change my gender I will lose everything - family, friends and job". Would that then mean you would not do your gender change?

Many trans people move away and lose everything because doing RLE and changing gender is something they need to do, more than not losing everything.

"This is what I am trying to say!!! You can't have SRS until you have done RLE."

I believe you are mistaken.

Because HBIGDA's Standards of Care require either a real-life test or a required period of therapy, there is a necessity to research whether either of these significantly benefit clients seeking cross-gender hormones and SRS. Benefit being a subjective term, this research should be performed by interviewing post-operative patients as Lawrence has done, but on a larger scale, to determine their satisfaction and level of regret with their decision to transition. If further research reveals that the real-life test or a period of fixed length in therapy has no value in increasing satisfaction or reducing regret, HBIGDA should be bound to consider this when drafting the next version of the Standards of Care for Gender Identity Disorders.

http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/

For the lady in the shop I'm pretty sure that this is covered in the Equality Act 2010.

Your gender specialist sounds as nutty as mine. Two things here. Firstly one of the major conditions of the RLE is that throughout you don't get involved in any physical confrontation or display traits of 'anti-social behaviour'. Depending on where you are in the UK suggesting that you stand out as trans when you're not entitled to anything (not even a wig) on prescription is rather stupid advice.

Second rule of the 1950's Housewives Society (read your NHS gender clinic appointments) is that you don't take everything they tell you literally (advice I got from my sorely missed late GP). They control the supply of hormones and other treatments so on some level you need to follow their advice, but they're also specialists working from a theory and set of guidelines and you're the one who has to deal with the reality out there in wider society.

But then again I have this opinion that anyone on RLE should be given some form of support. It's not like any of us cackle, fly round on broomsticks or cook stuff in cauldrons.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 05:39:02 PM

If you are saying you would lose everything by wearing female clothes, that to me means, you changing gender does not matter to your job, friends or family.

You could say this "If I change my gender I will lose everything - family, friends and job". Would that then mean you would not do your gender change?

Many trans people move away and lose everything because doing RLE and changing gender is something they need to do, more than not losing everything.

BethanyJade,
As is obvious from my avatar I do wear female clothes, have long hair etc.. but I didn't start to do it in public on a regular basis until my presentation as a woman was good enough for me to be able to avoid the sort of problems you have encountered. Given my job, it would have been suicidal and since I actually do have a choice I prefer to do my transition in a manner which allows me to avoid putting myself in such a position. As a guy, I was quite a masochist but I have largely given up on that since assuming my female identity..
Also, if transitioning results in more or less completely isolating you from the rest of society, I would seriously question the value of doing it. I actually believe this is proof of my overall sanity and would suggest that the sanity of anyone who tries to force me down a route which exposes me to constant ridicule, social isolation  and even danger to life and limb, is far more questionable than mine.
Again, I admire your courage and resilience but that still doesn't make the process you are being put through right.
Warm regards.
Donna

Why is it not right? For the last 10 months of doing this, everything has been fine, up till my stupid boss.

And to the poster who said they waited until they looked female before wearing the clothes. Your missing my point.

Look at some of my family. They have told me where to go because I was going to start wearing female clothes. Nothing about changing my gender..

It is good that you have not lost everything, but does that show you, that it's would of been you as a man wearing ladies clothes that would of lost you everything? Not the changing gender part? Could be wrong but that is what you saying.

I cant decide wheather I should be crying or laughing now... Seriously, it appears to me that most of the persons here are just talking about their country systems and not getting the point that everyone and every country is different. Yes, there are WPATH SOC, but there is also informed consent (that is what we are doing here with regard to the HRT).

As for doing everything, including the loss of everything just to change the gender - I just cant take this. No offence and insults will be meant for anyone in this thread or forum, please do not take this as personal, but I just want to get emotional about this.  Being trans is quite a unique experience which depending on your whereabouts, family, social and cultural position and ties can variate between total hell till kinda of happy childhood/teen years. I am speaking about disowned children from one side and those stunning examples like Jazz or Kim Petras from the other. There are many kids which are raised and beaten up by their peers or brothers, or fathers because they do not confirm their gender and there are people in this world who just believe that nothing is inborn and if we keep beating the sh*t out of you, then it will eventually sort everything out in your head. "Its not about prenatal hormones, You are just sick in Your head". Many of those kids do not survive till their adulthood - they either commit a suicide or become victims of violent crimes. Oh, and there is all this scene of prostitution... And if they had avoided that initially, when they loose everything - as suggested by the UK system (I emphasise - this is not mandatory outcome, but one of them),  they might still end up with selling their bodies because they are disowned, poorly educated, hungry and have no idea how to proceed with their lives. This pattern of victimisation just goes on with them and they do not know how to get out of it, besides they might get a dangerous idea that being trans = you are expected to be a victim... A victim of violent amd sexual offences, discrimination in private and public areas. But this is not true! You dont have to be a victim and loose everything, just because of some accident during Your prenatal stage... You should be enjoying Your life to the extend possible and not being asked to be voluntarily subjected to even more ridicule, shame and mockery. Most of us have had enough during previous stages of our lives, so why cant we finally get on with our lives?

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 23, 2013, 01:12:20 AM
Why is it not right? For the last 10 months of doing this, everything has been fine, up till my stupid boss.

And to the poster who said they waited until they looked female before wearing the clothes. Your missing my point.

Look at some of my family. They have told me where to go because I was going to start wearing female clothes. Nothing about changing my gender..

It is good that you have not lost everything, but does that show you, that it's would of been you as a man wearing ladies clothes that would of lost you everything? Not the changing gender part? Could be wrong but that is what you saying.

It might be okay for you but the RLE is not one size fits all. You appear to be rather small and passable and you prolly blend in well. But what about someone who is really broad chested or with some other male trait that could probably be corrected with HRT? I get why you are so passionate about the RLE. You are going thru it but it may not be as easy for others. And just because someone doesn't want to be ridiculed or hazed doesn't mean they are not sufficiently trans.

Also, you seem to be hung up on female clothes. But for me I could care less about clothes. Does that mean I am not trans? because for me it is all about my body. I want and need to be female because I feel so out of place in my own skin. It's horrid how I feel sometimes. I could deal with wearing male clothes foever (though I certainly don't want to) but I can't deal with being male anymore. Then there is the point female clothes fit better after a half year of HRT.

I do agree the RLE is neccesary...for SRS. I don't see why you are against being able to have HRT first. I get the NHS wants it that way but that is just a rule not a law. And even so just because a law doesn't make it right. Laws are meant to change as society changes. The RLE is a relic of a time when you could only transtion if you are passable. I wish I was in the UK because I would have underwent the RLE without HRT when I was 18 because I looked very female as a kid. But now 10 years later I have facial hair and my skin masculized so it would be as easy. Though not hard. But for others HRT is the difference between having an easy transtion and a hard one. I mean it is supposed to help the person decide they want this not a test of how trans they are.

No, I think Bethany made clear that RLE  was not a precondition for HRT, but they were sort of interrelated. Also, I think she did not say that clothes are the most important thing - its what the UK system says, because it is based on the old principles made by Harry Benjamin, which does not take into account the fashion trends and cultural evolution in 21st century. I got an impression that those NHS people think in categories "long hair= woman; short hair=man; skirt=woman, denim jeans, t-shirts = man". This part kinda bothers me, but I am also not in a position to criticise it, because it does not affect me personally. For me, clothing does not make You female, and if it does then You are probably a CD - just kiddin' . But - in terms of dress - I am pretty much sure that a female denim combi (trousers and jacket) will be my first outfit, whatever Harry Benjamin might be saying about it...

The reason why the NHS ask you to do RLE first, for a time, is because they found that amy people decided after around 18 months that they no longer wanted to continue with their gender change.

These people must of reasons why they decide that they no longer want to change gender, but what the NHS are saying is, "they could of give treatment to people who would of changed their gender."

You have to understand that our NHS gender clinics get around 1000 people a year go there, and they I am sure, are thinking about all the people who have to wait months if not years, before even getting their first appointment, that could of had an appointment sooner, and been the many people who really do want to change their gender.

So if a person does one year RLE then decides they don't want to change their gender, it has not cost the NHS anything.

But if we take a person, who is 100% unpassable  - maybe not excessively masculine, but like a borderline - and ask that person to undertake the RLE without hormones, I could bet this person might be quitting within the course of months...

-Emily- is right. And I think the NHS would say that if you looked female after being on HRT for a good year, you could wear what you wanted. As you would not have to wear things to make you stand out.

What I haven't said is that there are other NHS gender clinics (like the one in Scotland) where you don't even need to go via your GP and the wearing of the clothes is not important for stating HRT, but they do like you to do RLE at some point.

But my point is (they were quitting without having to do any RLE). They could start HRT without any RLE but they still quit.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 23, 2013, 03:14:35 AM
But my point is (they were quitting without having to do any RLE).

I am totally lost now

And yes I am lucky in that I do have a more female body. BUT I still get lots of people looking and saying things because I don't pass as a woman to everyone.

The RLE is not easy for me as well, but I understand that as I have a more female body and I am slim (only size 6 by the way lol), I can pass more easily.

But even if I was like others, I would still say the RLE is the right thing to do...

RLE is a joke, a sadistic joke.

And here is why. And I ask anyone reading to keep an open mind here...

What is the point of the RLE.... the point I think most would agree is to ensure that you can live life as your gender of identification in practice as well as theory.

To that end, what IS living as your gender of identification? I would put forward that it is by definition any form of living that involves people perceiving you as your identified gender and those people behaving towards you the same as they would anyone else.

And with that in mind, it has to be said that an extremely large number of young cisfemales dress in a masculine way and behave in a masculine way, yet are still treated as female because of other factors. Now I admit this does not apply to 'all' trans people, but it certainly does apply to many. Additionally not many young women dress as if they were a house wife from the 60s for example.

And therefore, RLE should be extremely wide in its interpretation. And in my opinion how you dress should in no way factor into it.

In fact I would say that RLE should not require ANYTHING of you that would not apply to as a general rule to large numbers of the cis population.

Now that I've said the more moderate parts of what I had to say, I'll add this.

A great deal of psychiatrists, especially if you give them the capacity to do so as the UK does, become totally drunk with power. Worse than that, they are not teaching you how to cope with being seen as your gender of identification, they are teaching you how to cope with being seen as a transsexual... by the general population.

I think it's disgusting, and none of you should have to put up with it.