I can't imagine I'm ever going to be seen as a real guy. I'm 5'3 and have an E-cup chest and big hips and a feminine face. Even if I get on T by the time I'm 18 I won't pass before I go to university, if ever. And I see trans guys all over Tumblr talking about how going stealth is the only way to be a real man, and anyone who doesn't pass or talks about being trans is just a transtrender. I don't think I'll ever look masculine enough to go stealth. So if stealth and passing are the goals to be a real guy, am I not a real guy? If cis people won't ever see me as a guy because of my genitals and trans people won't ever see me as a guy because I'm too young and too feminine to pass so I have to be out to be called a guy, what's even the point? Should I keep trying to be a girl instead of failing to be a guy?

Luke, whatever you're reading is bull. You don't need to be stealth to be a "real man" or pass to be "really trans". Ignore that crap and see the photos here of people's transitions--there's people here who've gone from looking extremely femme to passing 100%.

You can try binding but start saving for top surgery if that's what you'd like to do and you'll have a much better chance of passing.

Also, you don't need to be stealth while in college, and there's plenty of life to live after college as well.

You never know how transition will work out until you do it..

As for some of the crap you've been reading, file it in a trash can somewhere. Some of the most manly trans guys I know are the ones who are most open about it - and not all of them 'pass', they are still obviously men though..

I agree with Learned Hand and Kelly. There are as many ways to be a guy as there are guys. There are also as many ways to be trans. Not everyone passes and not everyone goes stealth.
Personally, I have a large chest that seems pretty obvious to me even when I bind and wide hips. I'm pre-everything and thought for sure I couldn't pass. Turns out a couple people I know had no clue I was trans and thought I was a regular guy right from the get go. So, basically, don't lose hope. You may pass better than you think. Also, take a look at pictures of guys who have been on T for awhile and/or had surgery. I find the difference from before and after helps bring me hope.
To me, the goal to be a real guy is to be oneself. That's what we're transitioning for aren't we? To feel happier and more comfortable with ourselves.

Ignore the transtrender nonsense, and don't underestimate the transformative power of T. People who start closer to their initial puberty are in a good place. Don't worry about passing for the reasons others have stated, and you will probably pass anyways eventually, especially if you start hormones before you are 20. Look at videos - changes come quick at that age. No worries either way.

Luke, I can understand easily. Ive been in that boat where i look up as much possible and see that if your still looking 'girly' as a guy, your not a 'real man.' its BS. No one has the right to say all transmen have to be big bulking guys. After so many years on T, your body will change. Dont worry so much about what ppl are saying...the sooner you start on T at a younger age, the better it is. Just hang in there.

with Edge. I agree. Not everyone passes, but its not always the person wanting to pass..its being comfortable in your body.

I can honestly say, i dont pass all the time, Im pre-everything as well. I have a feminine face and tiny frame. People bounce back and forth to calling me a girl and a guy all day. Though, no one really knows if Im male or female. But its those who call me a guy, that make me grin and we carry on a convo about cars or bikes. Hell with long hair or short hair, it still bounces back and forth lol. I bind and pack, and it still bounces. I know once i get on T, its going to change.

Luke Andrew, you sound kind of like me when I first started coming out at age 18. I had an E cup chest, and 45 inch hips with a 34 inch waist. If you identify as a guy/male/man whatever then you are. The whole situation involving being stealth or masculine is super difficult to navigate but if you know who you are and what you want to do then do it!

The one thing I will say is that people who are trans and transition (socially, legally, medically, whatever) have much different experiences than those that don't.

Start looking for short guys. That's your assignment. You'll be very surprised how many of us there are.

I am transitioning older. I think I might have a kind of alopecia which keeps me from growing body hair (not hair on my face or head--different kind of hair follicle) so I have little hair on my arms and legs. I am 5'1" and have been on T for 5 months (time flies when you're having fun) and have a very slight frame. I am now passing about half the time. I have a little shadow of a 'stache and my face has changed shape quite a lot. My voice has gone down quite a lot. You'd be surprised how changes like that help. I really don't know of too many people who never pass. There are a very few guys who don't start passing til about two years on T. But it's not typical.

Stealth is not everybody's goal either. I have NO intention of being stealth. Kids these days are VERY comfortable (for the most part) for with various gender presentations, so I don't think this is at all an issue. I know a genderqueer person, who is a professor and very respected. People have the right to be stealth but that's a myth that it's everyone's goal.  Tbh the chest might be the biggest problem. Start saving. You are REALLY young and extremely young to give up. Lots of people here have mates of various orientations who accept them as they are.

Tumblr isn't the whole universe of trans guys. I think a lot fo the kids are very immature and I don't pay any attention to it, with a couple exceptions. There is a big community on youtube, which IMO is much more accepting of differences and here of course. I also go to a support group. Even the younger guys there just laugh at tumblr.

Your youth actually will help you pass, though warning is that you'll look younger. It's probably why it took me a bit longer to pass, as I can't pass as younger.

Don't read any of that cr** and stay off of looking at those blogs. I think they do a lot of damage.  BTW, I agree that the goal is NOT passing either. But that guys on T mostly do pass.


--Jay

Quote from: Luke Andrew on July 29, 2013, 06:35:32 AM
I can't imagine I'm ever going to be seen as a real guy. I'm 5'3 and have an E-cup chest and big hips and a feminine face. Even if I get on T by the time I'm 18 I won't pass before I go to university, if ever. And I see trans guys all over Tumblr talking about how going stealth is the only way to be a real man, and anyone who doesn't pass or talks about being trans is just a transtrender. I don't think I'll ever look masculine enough to go stealth. So if stealth and passing are the goals to be a real guy, am I not a real guy? If cis people won't ever see me as a guy because of my genitals and trans people won't ever see me as a guy because I'm too young and too feminine to pass so I have to be out to be called a guy, what's even the point? Should I keep trying to be a girl instead of failing to be a guy?

Then after a few years on t, you will just be that guy with a big chest and curvy hips. I myself have a round bum from doing squats and my  girlfriend loves it lol. And As a guy who is 100 percent stealth, I think its horse crap to tell someone that being stealth is the only way to be a man.

Short answer; If it will make you happy, yes.
Long answer; it isn't about what other people consider being a "real" guy. All that mattered is if you feel like you are, and taking T is sure to help make you look more masculine. Sure, you might still have a rounder face shape, but that doesn't make you a girl. Part of what helps you pass is confidence, too, so once you start liking how you look, other people will take notice of your improved self confidence an perceive you as more masculine.
Do what makes you feel  good, not what other people like.

Hi Luke

Big pictures are scary, aren't they? But transition is something you achieve through taking lots of small steps, one at a time, and learning as you go.

The most important thing you need to transition isn't hormones, but a mirror. It can be a cheap mirror, the sort you buy at a dollar store or pound shop.

One of my first gender therapists was a Polish guy called Malinowski who was the spitting image of Albert Einstein. He gave me a piece of advice that stuck so well I feel every trans person needs to have it stuck to the top of their mirror.

'Stop building your own invisible prison.'

You are not a gender, you are a complete human being. You are an individual, you are unique, and there is nobody else like you anywhere in the world. There has never been anyone alive exactly like you at any point in history and there never will be another you at any point in the future.

This is the only thing you share with everyone else alive in the world today.

Compare and contrast yourself with others by all means as a learning experience, but not in a way which puts you down or makes you feel bad.

You don't have to reach a standard to be acceptable or 'real' as trans, you just have to find yourself. That's all you have to do.

You're young, still a teenager, and the one thing the world needs as well as others is a fresh perspective or new slant.

Besides I wouldn't worry about what people think because by the weekend everyone will have forgotten and by the middle of next week it will be history.

Before you can pass to other people you first have to master passing to yourself in front of that mirror, day in, day out.

You will also need a mirror for looking at yourself, getting to know yourself, and recognizing all that what makes you unique.

Be well.

Oh dear. Tumblr. Repeat after me: Tumblr is bad. Tumblr is bad. I once trolled around on it and looked up some MTF blogs and the thing I found was that demographics of those who regularly used was a) under the age of 24 and b) rather conceited about their transition. While it's nice to be able to transition while you're young, not all of us has had that opportunity, or even known at that age that transitioning was what they wanted.

One of my biggest fears when coming out (all of 7 months ago) was that I was too old to start. I'm 40, and there are regulars on this board who started in their 50s and 60s.... and have transitioned quite effectively, I might add. It's never to late to start being who you are. Something you might want to check out is that there's a lot of universities out there that offer comprehensive student health insurance, and some of those even cover the cost of transition. Even if they don't a lot of universities have some good resources for transfolk. I know that up here Portland State University has some really, really good resources, but I think we're more the exception than the rule. Still. It doesn't hurt to check your school's resources and see what's available.

Quote from: Shodan on July 29, 2013, 04:59:46 PM
Oh dear. Tumblr. Repeat after me: Tumblr is bad. Tumblr is bad. I once trolled around on it and looked up some MTF blogs and the thing I found was that demographics of those who regularly used was a) under the age of 24 and b) rather conceited about their transition. While it's nice to be able to transition while you're young, not all of us has had that opportunity, or even known at that age that transitioning was what they wanted.

I'm kinda afraid of becoming one of those vain Tumblr transguys, even though I'm already 29. I want to be a good, humble man, but at the same time I know if/when I start to transition I'll need reassurance on how I'm coming along. Do any of you guys feel this way, and if so how do you reconcile these conflicting desires?

Quote from: MaybeBen on July 29, 2013, 06:36:52 PM
I'm kinda afraid of becoming one of those vain Tumblr transguys, even though I'm already 29. I want to be a good, humble man, but at the same time I know if/when I start to transition I'll need reassurance on how I'm coming along. Do any of you guys feel this way, and if so how do you reconcile these conflicting desires?

I'm 29 too, and I have also felt the same way as you, but it is not vanity to track your transition. If anything, revel in it. At least for me, I have always avoided pictures and hated how I look. I am looking forward to T and finally being able to see myself looking back at me in pictures.

One of the main ways I learned about transitioning and the results you could get it was by seeing the pictures of others. Posting pictures helps other people see their options to improve their own lives.

It will be OK. I didn't pass worth a crap before transition, and for the first 10 months of transition. I had a high voice, girly face, feminine frame, etc. 10 months on T and never passing just killed me inside when I saw how other guys looked more male, especially after that time on T. And actually, at that 10 month point, I was thinking that I'd have to accept that I'd forever be seen as female, and would have to be 100% open with everyone as trans for them to know I was male. It was a dark time, and I was scared I'd end up committing suicide within a year. I might have if my friend Keaira wasn't waiting for me every night online - she had a friend pass away on her in January, and I knew if I offed myself it would really mess her up. So I hung on but I did wonder if I could ever live out a life being seen as a woman forever.

And not long after the changes began rolling in. I pretty much went from not passing one week to passing near flawlessly the next...and then it just carried on. I'm close to stealth now, and when I have more facial hair I can be 100% stealth. Some of us start in rough places, and struggle more than others, but nearly everyone reaches a point where they can pass. You will be OK. Be patient with your body, because it will happen in time.

Quote from: MaybeBen on July 29, 2013, 06:36:52 PM
I'm kinda afraid of becoming one of those vain Tumblr transguys, even though I'm already 29. I want to be a good, humble man, but at the same time I know if/when I start to transition I'll need reassurance on how I'm coming along. Do any of you guys feel this way, and if so how do you reconcile these conflicting desires?

I came to find that the reassurance of others didn't help me much anyway. If I was dysphoric, I was dysphoric and I just thought everyone was lying to me lol. But if I saw a change and saw progress, others saying they noticed too only reaffirmed what I already knew.

Thank you  for your time and reassurance, everyone. *hugs for all* I don't know. I'm not even ready to come out yet, I'm not in a situation where I'd be accepted. I guess looking at guys who are well into transition isn't going to help me that much.

I see people talking about how they want to move away and totally cut off everyone who knew them pre-transition, and I just can't fathom doing that. The expectation seems to be to go on T, get top surgery, go stealth after a few years, settle down with a straight girl and start a new life. I don't know if I like girls or if I'll be able to go on T for a while or if I'll want to go stealth even if I pass enough.

Quote from: Luke Andrew on July 30, 2013, 07:38:32 AM
I see people talking about how they want to move away and totally cut off everyone who knew them pre-transition, and I just can't fathom doing that. The expectation seems to be to go on T, get top surgery, go stealth after a few years, settle down with a straight girl and start a new life. I don't know if I like girls or if I'll be able to go on T for a while or if I'll want to go stealth even if I pass enough.

Woah there. Just because that's one way to transition, doesn't mean it's THE way. I don't ever intend to cut off everyone in my life.

Quote from: Luke Andrew on July 30, 2013, 07:38:32 AMI see people talking about how they want to move away and totally cut off everyone who knew them pre-transition, and I just can't fathom doing that. The expectation seems to be to go on T, get top surgery, go stealth after a few years, settle down with a straight girl and start a new life. I don't know if I like girls or if I'll be able to go on T for a while or if I'll want to go stealth even if I pass enough.

Plenty of people remain in contact with people who knew them pre-transition. Not everyone goes on T or gets surgery. Not everyone can or does go stealth. Not everyone is attracted to girls.

Quote from: Luke Andrew on July 30, 2013, 07:38:32 AM
Thank you  for your time and reassurance, everyone. *hugs for all* I don't know. I'm not even ready to come out yet, I'm not in a situation where I'd be accepted. I guess looking at guys who are well into transition isn't going to help me that much.

I see people talking about how they want to move away and totally cut off everyone who knew them pre-transition, and I just can't fathom doing that. The expectation seems to be to go on T, get top surgery, go stealth after a few years, settle down with a straight girl and start a new life. I don't know if I like girls or if I'll be able to go on T for a while or if I'll want to go stealth even if I pass enough.

Not AT ALL, what I did. I have stayed in the same place, same friends, go to the same stores, etc. I definitely looked female (though very androgynous). I have come out to people and even stores, if they are very small. No one has been mean to me in the slightest (and I am older). Even stores have gone from calling me a girl's name to Jay.

I am not knocking the whole stealth thing, but it won't be my path. But I do plan on getting top surgery and I am on T, but I wouldn't NEED to be. That's all your choice. I'm not sure I'm going to settle down a straight girl or bi-girl or guy, who cares really?

Are you in therapy? Do you know of a support group? Those things might be useful. It isn't helpful to go by some kind of expectations that others have. Find your own expectations. YOu seem to have a lot of preconceived notions of what being trans is like. The big thing is that I am now feeling MUCH more comfortable in my own skin. I didn't like how I looked as female, but I like how I look and feel as male. What do WANT to do? Don't worry about whose expectation you're fulfilling.

It took me almost a year of therapy to figure out who I was and what I wanted to do. So take your time.
My channel on youtube, since I am a MUCH older guy might be helpful to you.
https://www.youtube.com/user/astrog8tr


--Jay

I have quite a few guy friends that are in the lower end of 5' that doesn't mean you can't pass.  ( not to mention i have heard a couple cases where guys that went on T while in there teens  (aka still growing)  and they get a couple inches in height, though T is not specifically supposed to do that, you never know.

as long as you own up t what you feel inside other people will pick that up.

example: I have always heard, for girls or guys, being attractive is in your confidence. you don't need to look like million dollars to be attractive, and in this case you don't need to be stealthy to be a real man.the real man is in you. and people will see it as long as you are confident it is there..

good luck