Hello there everyone!

One of the things about life I've never understood is that feeling of belonging, that feeling of having a solid grounding which can allow you to feel more secure about your place in the world, with foundations that your personality and identity can be built on. This strength meaning you can feel justified & use yourself as an anchor in a crazy world where majority rule (no matter how insane or unfair) ultimately wins. In some way you can become "armoured" from society's constant commands, as long as you feel solid enough to stand your ground to whatever degree.

I dislike masculinity and femininity in general, and I feel uncomfortable with expressions of either gender by people. I am aware however that it's healthy to exhibit the trappings of your gender, so I certainly don't let my feelings of annoyance show. At my core I'm increasingly misanthropic and bitter, but as I'm ultimately an averagely reasonable & rational person, I can largely ignore these feelings. However, I'd like to eliminate these feelings if at all possible, as they are corroding my soul. I don't want to become a prat, and misanthropes are only funny if they are doing decent stand-up routines (and I'm NOT a comic), but I don't know how to change how I feel inside.

I just don't understand how people seem to be so comfortable with themselves and their gender role. Especially the older people get, males and females retreat into polarised camps. This becomes most evident when people get engaged and have kids. All of a sudden there's strict stifling conformity. What baffles me is that a lot of arguments and issues in relationships stem from men not understanding women, and vica versa. If there wasn't this polarisation of genders, then perhaps they'd be more understanding of each other and less stupid gender conflicts.

The really bizarre thing is that people in general LIKE to be gender polarised. There's this smug air of self-approval and confidence from people that I just really have never felt. I feel like a wispy tumbleweed of confusion and incomprehension, pushed around by other people's expectations and my own stupid biology. I've lost my train of thought, I've had too much caffeine and cheese, what is my point?

Is this what androgyne/non-binary is like? How can I make myself cease to feel intimated by others' positive gender expressions and how can I be happy never feeling like a belong in either of these two gender "clubs"? What's the strategy for not becoming a non-conforming misanthrope when your not good as making it sound humorous.



In addition - how come there appears to be many more female androgynes but very few male androgynes? It seems like gender non-conformists who are biologically female become androgyne, and biological males simply skip straight to male-to-female? Gender non-conforming females seem to be OK with being bi-gender or androgyne etc, but gender non-conforming biological males seem to need to identify as completely female, rarely are they happy being " a bit of both". This is something I've noticed, but I'm not sure whether it's actually how it is, so feel to correct me if you think it is not.

I'm MTA or a MAAB or male bodied non-binary. I'm a soul dragging around a male corpse.
I'm not a part of the binary world of posers. I do associate with people who are binary.

Being binary is really a much smaller club than most people recognize.
There are many of them that prefer to be thought of as binary, just to be a part of the club.
In our lifetimes and a hundred or more years ago, it wasn't as much of a measure of ones self as it is advertised.
Sure, there are those tasks in life that generally follow a pattern of either hunter or gatherer.
They have been categorized and placed into one side or the other of the binary 'clubs' of male and female.

They do seem to enjoy playing a game of misunderstanding each other. I find it kind of funny and odd.
The more they play the game, the more serious of players they seem to be. To the point of exclusion of others.
That be most of the world. Unfortunately, it is a game that most people play, even though they really don't belong.
To not be a player or at least be a fan of the game, is to be looked down on by those involved in it.
That would be us here. A large part of this forum overall is a part of that binary, but they in general include us in here.
They have the knowledge of us that most of society, the game players, don't have.
They are for the most part fans of the game, although their goal seems to be able to achieve player status.
Whether they actually play is another thing in itself. It's up to them and either way, it's just fine.

The way society has set itself up is to see only a binary world, because that's how it is presented from the time you are born.
You know how much everything it seems, is about either side of the binary spectrum.
The has been in the last few years, a growth among us that are finally claiming our own distinctions of non-binary.
This is still in it's first few stages of acceptance by society as a legitimate gender in itself, despite the enormous variations.

Right here is probably your best bet on being able to find information about us. There's a lot of it.
I personally divide gender into two groups, binaries and non-binaries. There is a distinction.
A major portion of people consider us to be somewhere in between the two sides of the binaries.
This couldn't be any farther from the truth. We are a separate group. Explains a lot of the confusion that most people have.
The separation allows us to not have to answer those questions of male and female that are thrown our way.
Those questions are binary in nature and tend to need a binary in nature answer. There isn't one.
Stop defining yourself by their standards and understand that they have a hard time understanding us, as well.

There has been lately a larger number of FAAB or FTA or female bodied non-binaries posting here.
A trend, maybe. Maybe not. It is overall about equal if you want to look at it that way. But you shouldn't.
That's the binary creeping in. It doesn't matter what your body is. It just doesn't.
What matters is that you recognize that you're not really a part of the binary gender.
You just live in a world that uses it as a standard. Majority rules being what it is.
And don't forget bigots. They seem to be everywhere, some even group up and form their own little clubs and standards.
Ignore their ignorance, it's not their fault that the wiring in their brains is so screwed up.
Not everyone has the ability to see beyond themselves. Nature is cruel to them. They have a disorder.
It's called gender dysphoria. They are totally confused and apparently some are even scared of us.
The only cure is to find acceptance that they are not the only people who live on this planet.
The binary version is that we have this dysphoria. We don't, we just suffer from the effects that their disorder has on us.
They used to refer to it as a disorder, as in psychiatric. They seemed to have changed it to just dysphoria. Whoopee.
They still think it is us who have this.
Stop thinking in terms of binary.
You'll feel better about yourself.
You'll feel better about the world around you.
You'll start to see how most people don't really fit in the binary gender.
But if that is what they want, let them.
They know somewhere in the back of their minds that they have characteristics of both sides of the binary gender.
Some of them will eventually figure it out if it becomes an issue for them. Others will hide it from even themselves.
Genderphobia. Oh, my god,...what will the other binaries think if I don't play by the rules of sides.
Some get to the point of understanding that there has to be more to this.
And here you are. Welcome to the other gender, the non-binaries.
You can call yourself what ever you want.
Androgyn and genderqueer are pretty popular, but are just a couple of many terms.
Do yourself a favor and try not to categorize yourself and others.
Just finding yourself is enough, you don't really have to name it.
There's too many names or terms out there to really be useful, other than as a description.

There is a lot of information here if you look around in the Androgyne section here.
There is a lot of information in other areas as well, but just keep in mind that it can be binary in nature.
Read through old topic, new topics, just go exploring. Or start a new topic. Like this one.
Got questions? Ask. Got information? It would be nice to share, but isn't required.
Got an opinion? It's up to you what you do with it. Most of us share and discuss to one degree or another.

Get used to the idea that you may belong to this gender or club as you put it.
We call the clubhouse the Forest or Unicorn Forest.
Kinda weird, but tradition allows us to do this. Besides, it's fun for the most part.
It comes in handy for analogies and such. Like the path one.
There are many winding paths that can take you to places you may never have been to before.
Most of them intersect at least once, most do that a lot.
You'll usually find people hanging around at some of them discussing stuff.
That would be the topics.
Explore, have fun, if you get lost, just ask for directions.
There are some of us who have been here for a long time and can give you advice or direction if you want.
We might not be always available.
But we do check in and keep an eye out for those who may feel lost, even here.
Ativan

Okay, well... 1. why get mad at people for doing something that makes them happy and 2. a little less "me vs the world" will go a long way. Trust me-- everyone's against the world on their own in their own way.

Ativan, as ever, sums things up quite well. being non-binary means you aren't swimming against the wo/man stream you're in a different river all together. For me being non-binary means I don't have to fit into culturally prescribed gender roles and I can pick and choose the "gender traits" (if any singular trait is in fact inherent to any one gender) that suit me rather than the socially conditioned traits expected of my body.

I was AMAB and when I began my gender journey I thought I must be a woman, since it felt better than man. After further souldiving and research I figured that there's no way I was a woman; this left me in strange position since I was even more sure that I wasn't a man. Then I realized that I didn't have to be either one; I identify as a lot of things now as MTA, MTFTA, genderqueer, demigirl, but my favorite one to tell folks is that I'm a post-queer trans-femme androgyne. I get to be myself and that may make me a social pariah but I'd honestly rather be out on the fringe having fun with my life than trying to cram myself into an ill fitting mold.

QuoteIs this what androgyne/non-binary is like? How can I make myself cease to feel intimated by others' positive gender expressions and how can I be happy never feeling like a belong in either of these two gender "clubs"? What's the strategy for not becoming a non-conforming misanthrope when your not good as making it sound humorous.

I say that the easiest strategy is to just forget all about other people, at the end of the day being androgyne, trans*, being human is about being true to yourself. Make your own positive gender expression; hell try to make your gender expression so positive that it intimidates binary people do whatever you have to do.

I myself can be quite misanthropic, more so when I was unsure of myself, I found that the reason why I hated people was because I was either jealous that they appeared to not be going through the same existential crisis I was and that pissed me off. The other bit being that it was more projected self-loathing. I didn't like myself, like many trans* people before "coming out", and I turned on the world around me because it was easier to hate them than love myself. I'm not saying you have the same dilemma I'm saying your relationship with society could probably use a good close look. And I'll just quote Lo who put it well

Quote1. why get mad at people for doing something that makes them happy and 2. a little less "me vs the world" will go a long way. Trust me-- everyone's against the world on their own in their own way.

good luck with all this and if you decide to the non-binary is right for you than welcome to the forest!

'Ello again!

Interesting responses, and thanks for the encouragement to leap into the forest! I've seen that expression used before, almost makes being non-binary sound relaxing if you say you're taking a cycle ride through the Forest of Androgyny (even though it goes by many names, indeed). I'm Hobbit sized (5ft 6") and wanted to be Alice in Wonderland when I was younger, so that's quite an apt destination for me. I hope everyone else is finding some peace and positive realisations in the forest too :-) Its actually a bit more of a liberating "river" as well, as it means I wouldn't have to be societies idea of a man when I say I'm feeling masculine today, or society's idea of a woman if I say I am feeling feminine.

I gather that the NHS, sadly, do not recognise androgyne though? Currently I am seeing the NHS, and they want me to either become a female (with all the trappings of society's ideals, which is laughable) or stay a man and just go away.

Very true about the (what definitely appears to be) fact about it being comparatively easier to be a tomboy than a "girly-boy". Society still seems femininity as weaker as well as there purely be sexualised. Also, perhaps the fact that, biologically, cis females are on a "slower" path of devolution (or continuing masculinisation) than men, so they have more scope and time to sway between gender presentation. As a male, unless you're Andre Pejic and therefore "lucky", you either pass as male or that's it.

Yes I am also very jealous at people for not going through the same personal crisis. I feel like my gender is loose and wobbling around in my head causing mental damage, whilst the average-joe has their gender and identity bolted down nice and safe (or so they work hard to ensure). Ah ha! Yes self loathing, I do hate how I am, but I am not sure why. I defend my gender position whenever people try to downplay it, gloss over it or make it out to be a deep flaw in my personality. But yet internally I'm as harsh about myself as the average "gender dysophric" person on the street.   I can't accept what I don't fully understand. And what I am (a female-leaning androgyne perhaps) is a problem for me as I want to fit in with the world. I want to be as smug and non-descript as everyone else, to play the dull game that society plays and therefore have a life without extra issues. Self-preservation and empowerment is my goal. I want this, but I also want to make a stand for myself and carve my own path (this is the irrational bit).

Perhaps I'm a bit like a gender-version of a working-class snob character (that John Cleese might play in a sitcom), that hates the ruling-class for being so obnoxious & damaging, but yet also yearns for that same status and power that he could apply to his own life. He constantly make a stand for himself but the ambition is to be like the upper-classes ultimately. (P.S despite this inner conflict, I'm not actually a prat  I don't judge others on the whole. I'm open-minded with most everyone else and their self-expressions, I'm just super strict and angry about my own leanings and beliefs.

I do feel that society has the issue, and not us though, yes. And perhaps indeed society and its individuals can be called gender dysphoric as a result. Thus they constantly feel threatened by any expression outside of their comfort zone. Society makes the rules though, so they'll be no escape unless nature starts producing androgyny and homosexuality on a massive scale. I'll laugh and laugh if that happens.

I'd love to walk down a highstreet and see female clothes on male mannequins (and vica versa) and see daft and cheesy romantic comedies featuring same sex partners being advertised. Mix it up even more and have the barber-shops giving pretty hairstyles to men as well as tidying up their beards. Official forms have a bewildering selection of gender options to choose from that everyone grumbles about taking up a whole page. And no-one knows what the sex of their romantic date is (or cares) until they get into the bedroom. It would cause utter chaos in society, disrupt every Religious dogma to destruction, make life decisions ever more complicated and end any form of average stable family model. It would be a "project mayhem" worthy of Fight Club. It could lead to a sterile sex-less and over-complicated society ultimately, but hey, it would be wonderful to see the fireworks erupting until then.  Let the masses experience what's in our heads and hearts. Nature loves disorder and variation so we're told. I'd rather the end of humanity comes this way (naturally) rather than with atomic bombs or zombie outbreaks.

   

If I may add my opinion as a faab, not-exactly-binary-but-that-doesn't-make-me-less-of-a-man male... (I'm a Loki. Sorry. Bad joke.) I am bad at words, so I apologize in advance for typos and/or not making sense.
Gender identity is not the same as gender expression and gender roles. I should stop there otherwise I'll go on a huge rant against gender roles which can get repetitive and boring and I am very biased.
I think you may overestimate how many people are fine with gender roles. Feminists have been fighting them for decades. The truth of the matter is every single person has their own personality, their own identity. It is impossible for everyone (or even most people) to fit 100% into two arbitrary categories. Some do well enough to be comfortable and that's great for them. Personally, I'm a big fan of the being oneself thing.

Quote from: theirrationaldress on August 03, 2013, 07:18:15 AMOne of the things about life I've never understood is that feeling of belonging, that feeling of having a solid grounding which can allow you to feel more secure about your place in the world, with foundations that your personality and identity can be built on.

I've found it's a better idea to have a good idea of who you are before trying to belong. The reason for this is because a lot of people end up building a false identity around who they want to belong with. A strong foundation comes from within. (Sorry that sounds cheesy, but it's true.) That and healthy self esteem. I have some tricks for that if you want me to share. There's also a post around here somewhere with tips for that. I'll see if I can find it and link you.

Quote from: theirrationaldress on August 03, 2013, 07:18:15 AMThis strength meaning you can feel justified & use yourself as an anchor in a crazy world where majority rule (no matter how insane or unfair) ultimately wins. In some way you can become "armoured" from society's constant commands, as long as you feel solid enough to stand your ground to whatever degree.

You decide that they won't win.
I know a few misanthropes that aren't funny either and they're still alright people. They're just saddened by the crap they see and hear about people doing. I think that's pretty normal.

Quote from: theirrationaldress on August 03, 2013, 07:18:15 AMWhat baffles me is that a lot of arguments and issues in relationships stem from men not understanding women, and vica versa. If there wasn't this polarisation of genders, then perhaps they'd be more understanding of each other and less stupid gender conflicts.

I think people just blame gender because it's easier than hard work. Poor communication is the real problem, but that takes work to fix.
Androgyne refers to gender identity. Anyone who is an androgyne is an androgyne regardless of what they look like or even their expression.
It is, unfortunately, currently more acceptable for women to be "masculine" (although there is an unfair double standard for trans women) than for men be "effeminate." But again, that has to do with arbitrary roles and not identity.
Androgynes and other non-binary people are still struggling to be recognized as just as valid. People keep confusing gender identity with gender roles and thinking it's a choice.

Pretty humorous, I like the John Cleese reference.
You're humor seems similar. I can relate to that, being a fan of Cleese.

Taking it all in is quite a chore, there's always a lot to consider.
Those who sound confident in their gender aren't always as confident as it may read.
Myself included. Almost all, if not all, have gone through many personal battles.
With society and ourselves as well. It doesn't come easy, this confidence.
It's a cultivated, personal journey we each take. No guide book or map.
But some of us have found things along the way that we like to share.
Not all of it applies to everyone. Pick and choose what works for you.

That is really the key to finding this confidence. Find what works for you.
I can't overstate that. You are the one who knows what will work.
All the rest of us can do is throw out tidbits of information that may or may not be helpful.

To use the idea of the forest, and it's paths sums up a lot of experiences that we each go through.
So many paths and intersections to choose from.
It gets better. The more you discover about your journey, the better it gets.
This is where that air of confidence comes from.
It's like having the pain disappear. Personal observation, there.
Once you become more comfortable, the easier it gets.

The whole acceptance of being non-binary is one we all go through to one extent or another.
With ourselves first, with some of societies acceptance holding us back along the way.
Accepting societies views comes along after that, with your own acceptance guiding you.
That's where the confidence seems to be, at least it does for me.
But I think most  of us would agree on this to whatever extent.
Self acceptance is a difficult journey through a maze of your own personality.
I look back on this and realize more and more how I have always known myself as I am.
I drop the facade of binary and allow myself to just be me.
Pretty much the key to happiness with most everything.
I struggle with this almost everyday, but I imagine most people do one way or another.

As a recognized group of people, as a type of people, as a gender, we are on the beginning of a wave.
Society is taking notice. As a whole, they are recognizing that gender as they were taught is a lie.
But for society to adjust, they need proof. This is difficult overall.
But as more and more people come forward, it becomes more obvious that indeed we do exist.
It's one thing to have an orientation that is different.
Then add to that, the idea that some peoples gender is not their assigned gender.
Then add the confusion of non-binary to the mix.
People have found out that they don't have to be afraid that they might be gay. It's not a disease.
The same holds true to a good extent for transsexuals. You are or you aren't. It's cool.
But then there is the idea of non-binary. WTF.
It boggles the mind as it quickly thinks about all the different ways this could be.
But as more and more models are becoming popular, the more comfortable society is with the idea.
The more people aren't afraid of their own feelings of cross gender that they have.

Acceptance is a very personal thing. We are very much in a grey area of gender from a binary point of view.
This is why I accept myself as a separate gender altogether. No grey area here.
Just a big forest full of really interesting people. They boost my confidence.
I hope I do the same for them. I never really know, and it doesn't really matter.
I accept them as well as myself. That's very key to being here for me.
Sounds like you're on a personal journey and you realize it. Good for you.
I mean that in the most sincere way. You've crossed some paths here already.
Whether you wish to stay or not, at least you taken a big step in your journey. How cool is that?

*I just read Edges post. Excellent. Find that link and put it up. Info here should be renewed and updated regularly.
I took some time away from here for the most part. Some personal issues pulled me away.
*Gender identity is not the same as gender expression and gender roles.*
There's a topic right there in itself.
*People keep confusing gender identity with gender roles and thinking it's a choice.*
This is important to understand.
There should be more discussion about this. It is confusing for many people.

We are, as a gender, just beginning to come into our own. We are finally being recognized in society.
We don't owe society an explanation, but we do need to be visible. In one way or another.
We don't have a standard model or expression to work with. So everyone who simply states they are is enough.
It comes down to identity. Expression is just playing with that, it's how we make ourselves comfortable.
Our role is to just be here, to be known,...as well as visible. Society can accept us or not.
We are here. So far, they seem to be OK with that. As much as they can be.
Gender is still a touchy subject for most people. But so was orientation.
I honestly believe there are far more of us than we even know.
I read peoples first posts here, mostly the ones introducing themselves, but also the people that ask those first questions.
What I get from that is there are so many who have known, but didn't realize there are others.
They find this place, and express a sense of relief in knowing that we are here.
How many more are there that haven't accepted themselves or just think they are alone out there?
The idea that we are real and are here and not going away like some current fad is really just beginning.
Society being what it is, has become attracted to the Androgynous models. They are asking about us.
This opens the doors of the closets for many people. There are more of us than we know.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on August 04, 2013, 01:33:13 PMFind that link and put it up. Info here should be renewed and updated regularly.

Found it. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,122320.0.html It's one of the pinned topics in Transgender Talk.

I skimmed over it a little.
Sephira is a favorite for most around here, I think.
I am definetly going to dive into it.
How nice, thanks for posting it.
Maybe we can steal it while nobody's looking 
Ativan

Quote from: theirrationaldress on August 03, 2013, 07:18:15 AM

~

In addition - how come there appears to be many more female androgynes but very few male androgynes? It seems like gender non-conformists who are biologically female become androgyne, and biological males simply skip straight to male-to-female? Gender non-conforming females seem to be OK with being bi-gender or androgyne etc, but gender non-conforming biological males seem to need to identify as completely female, rarely are they happy being " a bit of both". This is something I've noticed, but I'm not sure whether it's actually how it is, so feel to correct me if you think it is not.

I know it may be true that is society in general it is hard to find acceptance- and the medical establishment may be hard to press - but actually in my town out of probably about 60 trans people

with around a 70/30 spread maab/faab it I see a number of people who do not express a wish to be at the extreme of the binary as you call it

I would say I am probably as close as they come to the most extreme femme womyn as they come many just barely transition and some of the younger one come outright and express fully outside of the gender binary

the older generation don't quite use the same vocabulary but all the same are at least dressing and acting very androgynously

Great replies everyone, interesting to hear everyone's thoughts, and also quite comforting. The self-esteem excises are particularly useful as I have zero self-esteem and self-confidence. It's easier to "fake" in business situations or when dealing/socialising with older people though, but I am really unconfident and stand-out as awkward amongst people my own age or younger. I'd rather deliver a pitch to a hostile boardroom of 40-something chaps than chat with a bunch of male and female twenty-somethings in a bar, the latter is much more scary.

I have confidence in what I do but no confidence in what I am and who I stand for. Sometimes I feel like American Pyscho's Patrick Bateman character (but without the psychotic episodes, though I do love Phil Collins and Huey Lewis and the News). I struggle to feel identifiable emotions, especially about how I am supposed to feel about who I am.

And I'm all for being a river of my-own then, as it were. It feels healthier than trying to be either, which through self-discovery I realise I am neither of the binaries in thought or wish. Androgyny is becoming more popular yes, but I do feel its just a fad. Spurred on by beautiful models like Andre Pejic and pop artists like La Roux. I'm not convinced they will continue to be as appreciative when the inevitable opposite trend emerges. Things go through cycles. But he's hoping I am wrong and have to eat a nice slice of flavoursome & fulfilling Humble Pie (at Dorsia's, naturally)

Hooray for Cleese! And hooray for irreverent and flippant and surrealist humour too 

Lets try these self-esteem tasks...

There is an element of all this that is a fad. But it is the androgynous look.

You can look androgynous and not be an Androgyne.
You can be Androgyn and not look androgynous at all.

You're right about it going in cycles, I've seen it come and go more than a few times.
It was quite popular there for awhile for some of the younger people.
We had lots of people coming here asking us for fashion tips.
The results of that whole thing was pretty mixed.

But it's not a bad thing in the least.
Except that people who don't know expect you to look androgynous if you are an Androgyn.
But the plus of it is that it exposes and promotes the idea of non-binary.
The modeling look of androgynous will fade to a certain extent, but only to make way for the next big thing.
You can't take back the idea that Androgyn's or non-binary indeed do exist.
It does open the closet door for a lot of people. I've watched that over the last year.
The androgynous look isn't a new thing. It's come and gone quite few times in the fashion world.
But this time around, with all the emphasis on LGBT rights, it has taken on a different tone.
Any positive exposure that people will accept is good, I'll take it.
The fashion world speaks volumes about people's attitudes at times.
It reflects attitudes, in some cases even creates them.
It rules more often than not. Even if it is constantly changing.
This time around it is having a very positive effect on how people are viewing gender.
I'll take that for whatever it is worth.
Ativan.