Quote from: Heather on August 05, 2013, 09:37:26 AM
Everybody is going to have their own definition of what stealth is to them. Trust me I'm not advocating a life style and what you consider stealth is different from me.
Quite frankly who you tell is none of my business. By your definition I would be stealth! (Well if I pass that is!) I'm not going around telling everyone I'm trans but I'm not full time yet either. But even if I do pass I'm not going to announce it to everyone. But I'm staying at my job for now so I have no choice but to be out.
Anyways this is the last I will say about this people get way too over sensitive with this subject. All I have to say is no matter what your interpretation of stealth is if your happy awesome! But from now on I'll never respond to one of these stealth threads again they are just way too contentious than I like. And help nobody so as the old saying goes I won't touch this subject with a 10ft pole. 

you don't understand about 10 people in a city of 1,000,000 are going to know I am trans, this is stealth  to me (basically the Dr office and the therapist) (and fantasy of fantasy a girlfriend if I ever get one)

Can I approach this from a different direction?

I say this from a trans life perspective not from an insulting tone, I think you know me enough to understand that.

As gender diverse people we suffer not only from our own need for acceptance of ourselves but also how we are accepted in society.  We as a group have a tendency to co-morbidities in our mental health, that means our gender diversity is not a menat health issue but the ways in which we have tried to cope may be, drugs, depression etc.

When we talk about stealth etc we need to think of the consequences on our co-morbidities.

To put it bluntly if you are outed what will it lead to; in your mind not what others think of you, how will it effect you?

How will you cope with that?

I realise I'm a useless example in this situation, but in some ways maybe not. I cannot be outed. I can be hated. loathed, ignored, loved, accepted (I'm finding it impossible to say I can be ignored ) but I'm recognised for what I am. A woman who was born with male genitals, not that the question ever is asked twice

But I cannot be triggered by that, so I do not need to have anything in place for being triggered by that.

If you are in stealth, and I hope it never happens, but how would you deal with being outed? Would it trigger you? And can you control that?

Thoughts only people not a command.

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy on August 06, 2013, 03:27:49 AM
Can I approach this from a different direction?

I say this from a trans life perspective not from an insulting tone, I think you know me enough to understand that.

As gender diverse people we suffer not only from our own need for acceptance of ourselves but also how we are accepted in society.  We as a group have a tendency to co-morbidities in our mental health, that means our gender diversity is not a menat health issue but the ways in which we have tried to cope may be, drugs, depression etc.

When we talk about stealth etc we need to think of the consequences on our co-morbidities.

To put it bluntly if you are outed what will it lead to; in your mind not what others think of you, how will it effect you?

How will you cope with that?

I realise I'm a useless example in this situation, but in some ways maybe not. I cannot be outed. I can be hated. loathed, ignored, loved, accepted (I'm finding it impossible to say I can be ignored ) but I'm recognised for what I am. A woman who was born with male genitals, not that the question ever is asked twice

But I cannot be triggered by that, so I do not need to have anything in place for being triggered by that.

If you are in stealth, and I hope it never happens, but how would you deal with being outed? Would it trigger you? And can you control that?

Thoughts only people not a command.

Cindy

Currently, it COULD lead to my death

and - how would I deal with it - I really would not be able to say it here

Quote from: Cindy on August 06, 2013, 03:27:49 AM
Can I approach this from a different direction?

I say this from a trans life perspective not from an insulting tone, I think you know me enough to understand that.

As gender diverse people we suffer not only from our own need for acceptance of ourselves but also how we are accepted in society.  We as a group have a tendency to co-morbidities in our mental health, that means our gender diversity is not a menat health issue but the ways in which we have tried to cope may be, drugs, depression etc.

When we talk about stealth etc we need to think of the consequences on our co-morbidities.

To put it bluntly if you are outed what will it lead to; in your mind not what others think of you, how will it effect you?

How will you cope with that?

I realise I'm a useless example in this situation, but in some ways maybe not. I cannot be outed. I can be hated. loathed, ignored, loved, accepted (I'm finding it impossible to say I can be ignored ) but I'm recognised for what I am. A woman who was born with male genitals, not that the question ever is asked twice

But I cannot be triggered by that, so I do not need to have anything in place for being triggered by that.

If you are in stealth, and I hope it never happens, but how would you deal with being outed? Would it trigger you? And can you control that?

Thoughts only people not a command.

Cindy

I'm not quiet stealth but I try to be. It's very difficult though because people are outing me left and right. My closest friends and family are okay. I've told them that if they want to assist in my suicide then they can go ahead and out me. That helped and they've finally got it through their thick heads that I don't want to be outed. This is pure rocket science and very hard for a cis person to understand. Very very hard indeed. Trouble is though, they've already outed me to people who know who I am but don't know me personally, and these people (who happens to be immune to threats of suicide, cause they don't know and care about me) will in turn tell other people and so on and so on. About a year ago I was at a party and someone I had never seen before came up to me and asked me if my old name was 'xxx' "....because that's what they had heard". Usually they'll ask such stupid things loudly so everyone can hear.

So what do I usually do when I'm outed? Usually I'll picture myself with a noose around my neck or my body under a speeding train or something. I imagine that someday, if this keeps up, I'll totally snap.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 06, 2013, 09:20:56 AM
I'm not quiet stealth but I try to be. It's very difficult though because people are outing me left and right. My closest friends and family are okay. I've told them that if they want to assist in my suicide then they can go ahead and out me. That helped and they've finally got it through their thick heads that I don't want to be outed. This is pure rocket science and very hard for a cis person to understand. Very very hard indeed. Trouble is though, they've already outed me to people who know who I am but don't know me personally, and these people (who happens to be immune to threats of suicide, cause they don't know and care about me) will in turn tell other people and so on and so on. About a year ago I was at a party and someone I had never seen before came up to me and asked me if my old name was 'xxx' "....because that's what they had heard". Usually they'll ask such stupid things loudly so everyone can hear.

So what do I usually do when I'm outed? Usually I'll picture myself with a noose around my neck or my body under a speeding train or something. I imagine that someday, if this keeps up, I'll totally snap.

If it's this bad, why don't you just relocate to a place where people don't know you?

Quote from: su->-bleeped-<-ime link=topic=145474.msg1197403#msg1197403 date=1375800600
If it's this bad, why don't you just relocate to a place where people don't know you?

Six month count down to the move - not all of us are rich like some  of you, I have noticed some of you managed to get SRS in  a year or two or maybe 3, I probably never will, and I have been at this for 25 years - I scrabble along at the poverty level and scrape for my meals at the end of the month

Maybe I'm being stupid here, but I just don't see why this issue is so contentious.

It doesn't matter whether you're open or stealth because chances are as a trans person if you go looking for personal drama you'll find it quicker than most, if you go looking for trouble you'll find it just as fast. Getting through transition is bad enough with all the obstacles and confrontation you have to deal with just to get through it.

Yet we all walk our own individual path through life, and through transition. Sometimes we come here and we come across experiences others share which we can relate to, but this is just because they resemble or mirror our own, they elicit similar feelings and emotions, but they are not the same experiences.

As much as I would want to (because I'm a caring sort) I cannot take the place of someone just starting out for the first time, or who has to come out to their parents knowing full well how much they depend on them and how great the impact is going to be if the relationship suffers as a result. I'm not there, I don't live your life, I don't walk your path.

You don't share my reality, and I don't share your's. Our experiences are not the same, they are just similar. Each of us have our own reasons for being stealth, or being open, or being somewhere in between.

How I live my life doesn't reflect on how you live your's. If you think that my sharing of my experiences and my life is meant to make a statement that I'm better then you're mistaken. The only implication I intend in any of my postings is that I'm different, this is my life, my experience, and I'm sharing it not to say that I'm right and you're wrong, but to share it in a way to say 'this is how I live, this is how I do things' just so to inspire someone further behind to see this and take from this something for their own life or experience.

So where's the reason to fight or argue? Why does stealth or open suddenly have to be an 'either or' argument?

Why not just share and let others draw their own conclusions?

Quote from: StellaB on August 06, 2013, 10:12:15 AM
Maybe I'm being stupid here, but I just don't see why this issue is so contentious.

It doesn't matter whether you're open or stealth because chances are as a trans person if you go looking for personal drama you'll find it quicker than most, if you go looking for trouble you'll find it just as fast. Getting through transition is bad enough with all the obstacles and confrontation you have to deal with just to get through it.

Yet we all walk our own individual path through life, and through transition. Sometimes we come here and we come across experiences others share which we can relate to, but this is just because they resemble or mirror our own, they elicit similar feelings and emotions, but they are not the same experiences.

As much as I would want to (because I'm a caring sort) I cannot take the place of someone just starting out for the first time, or who has to come out to their parents knowing full well how much they depend on them and how great the impact is going to be if the relationship suffers as a result. I'm not there, I don't live your life, I don't walk your path.

You don't share my reality, and I don't share your's. Our experiences are not the same, they are just similar. Each of us have our own reasons for being stealth, or being open, or being somewhere in between.

How I live my life doesn't reflect on how you live your's. If you think that my sharing of my experiences and my life is meant to make a statement that I'm better then you're mistaken. The only implication I intend in any of my postings is that I'm different, this is my life, my experience, and I'm sharing it not to say that I'm right and you're wrong, but to share it in a way to say 'this is how I live, this is how I do things' just so to inspire someone further behind to see this and take from this something for their own life or experience.

So where's the reason to fight or argue? Why does stealth or open suddenly have to be an 'either or' argument?

Why not just share and let others draw their own conclusions?

The problem does not come in with whether or not anyone else lives stealth - there was actually an article in the advocate which castigated anyone who dared to live stealth as if we were hurting those who were trans because we were "ashamed of who we were" when in fact where I live I am doing it out of self defense - it is all well and good to be "out and proud" in San Francisco where anyone can see you and they actually pay for your SRS if you work there, but here I suffered a hate crime and the cops actually laughed at me when I tried to report it. (I was almost beaten to death and NOTHING was done about it)

A year ago I would have been all "STEALTH STEALTH STEALTH"

but as I adjust more and more, and become more suited to being myself..

Im ok with openess to an extent.

Quote from: vegie271 on August 06, 2013, 10:45:01 AM


The problem does not come in with whether or not anyone else lives stealth - there was actually an article in the advocate which castigated anyone who dared to live stealth as if we were hurting those who were trans because we were "ashamed of who we were" when in fact where I live I am doing it out of self defense - it is all well and good to be "out and proud" in San Francisco where anyone can see you and they actually pay for your SRS if you work there, but here I suffered a hate crime and the cops actually laughed at me when I tried to report it. (I was almost beaten to death and NOTHING was done about it)

I'm sorry that happened to you -- it's awful, and I sympathize for certain. I'm interested in stealth not only for the social benefits, but also for my own safety. I have no real enemies in life, but there are plenty of people who are malicious by nature. A quiet, relatively normal life is of great interest to me, and I put myself at greater risk of not experiencing that by exposing myself as an often harassed demographic more and more.

However, I have a safety net. I have many loved ones who deeply care about me and make strides to ensure my safety. I feel very happy with the people who are close to me and feel little need to branch out. While I would prefer as few people as possible know what I have been through or will go through, I do not mind if someone close to me or satellite to my life is aware. It has little effect on my current happiness. If some day I were to be outed even more so than I currently am, it would not be a travesty to me and I would likely adapt because I have too much support to distract me from my contentment.

Not all people have this luxury. I am extremely fortunate to know the people I know. People who are not so fortunate, or who don't want to be in a situation such as mine, really have to consider their safety and their happiness. If complete stealth is the road they choose to achieve those qualities, then I think that is completely reasonable within their boundaries as a person.

Additionally, why does open or stealth need to be an "either, or, good, bad" argument? If someone wants to remain open and use that fact to fight for the well-being of trans people, that's their prerogative and I definitely commend them. If someone wants to remain stealth to avoid the harassment and prejudice that currently exists in our society, then I cannot fault them for wanting happiness and quiet in their limited life span. If the first attacks the second for their actions, are they not demeaning the purpose they are fighting for?

I also don't understand why some people are debating the very definition of stealth. It seems like a somewhat loose concept that merely implies you are readily perceived as an ordinary woman or man by most or all people you encounter. If your closest loved ones know about your biology but readily perceive you as a woman or man, and a few clinicians or administrators who are necessary to establish and advance your life are aware, why do these individuals have to count against your status as being stealth? For many people, even those who move, it seems almost inevitable. There are too many tides in life that we simply cannot control, unless we irrationally sacrifice entire opportunities and avenues to achieve them -- which seems like it falls shy of "living" as a genuine idea.

Quote from: su->-bleeped-<-ime link=topic=145474.msg1197403#msg1197403 date=1375800600
If it's this bad, why don't you just relocate to a place where people don't know you?

I'm considering doing just that, but doing such a thing isn't that easy. Right now I'm trying to purge untrustworthy people from my social circles. Perhaps whittle it down to 4-5 people and then find new friends outside my network. If that doesn't work, then I'll move to another country. Probably the Netherlands. I'm already looking into learning Dutch to make relocating easier, if I'm forced to move.

I've lived in several countries for extended periods of time, but until very recently I kept my transgender secret from everyone. If you've been courageous and resilient enough to go through transitioning, you'll have no problem adapting to life in another country.

Quote from: vegie271 on August 06, 2013, 10:07:20 AM


Six month count down to the move - not all of us are rich like some  of you, I have noticed some of you managed to get SRS in  a year or two or maybe 3, I probably never will, and I have been at this for 25 years - I scrabble along at the poverty level and scrape for my meals at the end of the month

I feel like this is a weak excuse. It's not that hard to relocate on a budget, you just need to do your research. If you are currently scraping by at a low level job then you have little to lose by relocating: there are low level jobs all over the world. If you will be happier in a new location, this will improve your state of mind, and once you have a better state of mind, it will be easier for you to improve your financial situation.

Quote from: vegie271 on August 06, 2013, 10:07:20 AM


Six month count down to the move - not all of us are rich like some  of you, I have noticed some of you managed to get SRS in  a year or two or maybe 3, I probably never will, and I have been at this for 25 years - I scrabble along at the poverty level and scrape for my meals at the end of the month

Vegie their has to be some way to get out of your situation. It's all about attitude I'm not rich and I'm assuming I will never be either and I guess I hope to be one of these people that has SRS in the next two years. And it's not because I have the money it's because I flat out refuse to give up on my goals and will work as many jobs as it takes to achieve that goal. If you take the attitude you can't do something you will never be able to do that something. Get it in your mind that you can move you can have SRS and refuse to take no for an answer it will happen. 

For Myself, I am pretty open about it. Of course all of my ID is, for a little while longer, in my birth name and just buying food at the supermarket will out me when I present my EBT Food Stamps card with my old name and picture (though one time at the welfare office when presenting my card, the worker said "This is your husband's card" at first).

Currently out of work and I know that a background check will immediately out me as well, and all of my over 30 years of experience is pre-transition. I have also been something of a public figure with lots of google search hits to my name from a few of the public projects I was involved with. I had a long stint as a radio personality and while working there the news director came out full-time transitioning as a woman and this was where I personally encountered my first trans-person IRL. All of this as well as both names, birth and female, are very distinct (no need to add numbers to email addresses).

I am in no way embarrassed as to my gender status and though I will not be the first to raise the issue, if it does need to come up I would feel no angst over talking about it, any problem would be others, not mine.

Quote from: Heather on August 06, 2013, 04:01:54 PM
Vegie their has to be some way to get out of your situation. It's all about attitude I'm not rich and I'm assuming I will never be either and I guess I hope to be one of these people that has SRS in the next two years. And it's not because I have the money it's because I flat out refuse to give up on my goals and will work as many jobs as it takes to achieve that goal. If you take the attitude you can't do something you will never be able to do that something. Get it in your mind that you can move you can have SRS and refuse to take no for an answer it will happen. 

Medicare will not pay for my SRS - it is illegal for me to have a savings account larger than $2000, or have assets over $2000 even in cash, or even have a friend save the money for me, if I start a job I am only allowed to earn $200 a month or they start docking my SSI AND after I keep that job for 9 months I LOSE ALL of my SSI AND medicare FOREVER!

so there is pretty much no way I can even try to save up for SRS even if I try to on my own

so they won't do it and it is illegal for me to do it on my own.

I can't go back to school because I cannot afford  the cost of it I can barely afford to eat

trust me I have tried all options and I am trapped our society does in fact marginalize some people

Quote from: vegie271 on August 06, 2013, 04:57:06 PM


Medicare will not pay for my SRS - it is illegal for me to have a savings account larger than $2000, or have assets over $2000 even in cash, or even have a friend save the money for me, if I start a job I am only allowed to earn $200 a month or they start docking my SSI AND after I keep that job for 9 months I LOSE ALL of my SSI AND medicare FOREVER!

so there is pretty much no way I can even try to save up for SRS even if I try to on my own

so they won't do it and it is illegal for me to do it on my own.

I can't go back to school because I cannot afford  the cost of it I can barely afford to eat

trust me I have tried all options and I am trapped our society does in fact marginalize some people

How many more years does your bankruptcy last for? If you have nothing but time, there are ways that you can better yourself by taking advantage of free learning material online. You can also usually sit in on university lectures for free. Have you considered moving to a foreign country on a working holiday visa? There are steps that you can take to ensure that you come out of your bankruptcy in the best position possible. A lot of knowledge is free, and they can't take it away from you

Quote from: su->-bleeped-<-ime link=topic=145474.msg1197703#msg1197703 date=1375827640
How many more years does your bankruptcy last for? If you have nothing but time, there are ways that you can better yourself by taking advantage of free learning material online. You can also usually sit in on university lectures for free. Have you considered moving to a foreign country on a working holiday visa? There are steps that you can take to ensure that you come out of your bankruptcy in the best position possible. A lot of knowledge is free, and they can't take it away from you

bankruptcy is finally over but what can I do I still can't get a job or anything - I can't afford to fly to another country - I can barely afford to live here - how can I work there I have few talents in any place else

and like I said if I work I lose what I have - I have so little I don't want to risk it

Having little is an excellent reason to risk it - the potential rewards are huge, and if it doesn't work out, you can't possibly be that much worse off than when you started. You can speak English, have you considered moving to a foreign country to teach schoolchildren? From there, you can figure out something more lucrative to get involved in. I know what it's like to be depressed, but you need to take action if you want to get out of a bad situation, it's not going to fix itself.

Quote from: su->-bleeped-<-ime link=topic=145474.msg1197732#msg1197732 date=1375829557
Having little is an excellent reason to risk it - the potential rewards are huge, and if it doesn't work out, you can't possibly be that much worse off than when you started. You can speak English, have you considered moving to a foreign country to teach schoolchildren? From there, you can figure out something more lucrative to get involved in. I know what it's like to be depressed, but you need to take action if you want to get out of a bad situation, it's not going to fix itself.

1) I am not that good with children (young ones at least)

B) no I had never considered it really - you have me sort of stunned  what are the possibilities? I would actually be overjoyed at the prospect of leaving this place