The last few days I've had to run errands and do some shopping for school, groceries, etc. It has dawned on me how differently I am treated by society now that I pass 100% of the time at 8 months on T. The more I think about it the angrier I get at cis society for their predispositions towards people who appear gender variant.

For example, yesterday I had lunch at a local pizza buffet. I was wearing a Patriots team hat and a girl just walked up to me and started talking about them. A girl who would have seen me and turned her nose up or giggled with her friends about me not even a year ago. Even going shopping is different. Staff at a department store can walk up to me asking if I need anything and when I say, "No thanks, just browsing" they don't get taken aback anymore by my voice.

Does it feel good to be seen as "normal"? Yes, it makes life so much easier. Honestly, I know if I wasn't on T and passing so well I wouldn't be starting college in less than two weeks. I would have been too paranoid about people clocking me and being miserable the whole year when they gossiped behind me back. In a multitude of ways being on T has helped me more than any psychiatric medication ever has.

Then I stop and think about cis society. It makes me feel bitter that while I did this for myself that it took this to make them see me as a worthwhile human being, and not an object to be ridiculed without remorse. I wonder while I do apparently fit in now if I will ever fit in mentally. How much baggage do we continue to carry throughout our lives because of how we were seen/treated pre transition? Will I ever fully trust cis people? Will I ever feel comfortable enough to not feel different from everyone else?

Anyone else ever have these thoughts?

I can't wait to be seen as 'normal.' I also think it will significantly decrease how anxious I feel whenever I have to interact with someone in public.

I am so tired of walking up to the counter at a store and having the person squint at me for a moment to determine how they should address me. A good majority of the time they peg me as a teenage boy which brings its own level of weirdness.

It is super awkward when I have to show my ID at a restaurant ordering a drink. They do a double take, and not just because of the F. Sometimes I notice people looking at me very obviously from across the room, like it is their business what gender I am. I live in the Pacific NW- they have seen butch women before without a doubt. Why do I still stand out?

I think once my voice drops it all will begin to get a lot better.

Quote from: spacerace on August 10, 2013, 03:24:17 PM
I can't wait to be seen as 'normal.' I also think it will significantly decrease how anxious I feel whenever I have to interact with someone in public.

Having the privilege to be stealth in society is nice. It does help with anxiety, a lot. For myself it allowed me to stop taking anti-anxiety medications just to feel comfortable going out for the day. In a lot of ways T has saved my life. If I had a wish for everyone on these forums it would be that they could live comfortably in society as the gender they identify with.

I sorta feel like I shouldn't have started this thread. It makes me feel like "Boo Hoo, poor pitiful Simon blends in so well that now he can't handle that". I hope I don't come off that way. It's just hard for me living in a very conservative area in the South knowing how I was treated by so many people for years and years to now accept how I am treated now. When people are nice or welcoming to me it's strange and hard to accept because if they knew what I am they wouldn't even want to share space with me. It's baggage from years of being pushed around. I find it hard to trust people in general. It's not paranoia, I don't think anyone is out to harm me. It's hard to explain but I guess it's like a form of PTSD maybe?

I've definitely thought about this a lot. More than half of my life I've either been thought of as male by people who didn't know me, or really androgynous. And I have most certainly been treated differently when people thought I was male. I've also been treated really crappy by people who simply thought of me as a female that looked like a male. People are harsh and a segment of society just reinforces that people who break the gender mold are to be laughed at and ridiculed.

Quote from: Si on August 10, 2013, 04:21:52 PM
I sorta feel like I shouldn't have started this thread. It makes me feel like "Boo Hoo, poor pitiful Simon blends in so well that now he can't handle that". I hope I don't come off that way.

You didn't come off that way. If anything, I was glad to read your post because it reminded me that eventually I will blend in.

Quote from: Si on August 10, 2013, 01:01:13 PM
How much baggage do we continue to carry throughout our lives because of how we were seen/treated pre transition? Will I ever fully trust cis people? Will I ever feel comfortable enough to not feel different from everyone else?

Once time passes, you may find that you trust people more and more - but I think you will always remember what it was like, and a part of you may always brace yourself around other people. It may take awhile for it not to be at the back of your mind. You will probably always feel different than everybody else though. I know I will.

Quote from: Si on August 10, 2013, 04:21:52 PM
It's just hard for me living in a very conservative area in the South knowing how I was treated by so many people for years and years to now accept how I am treated now. When people are nice or welcoming to me it's strange and hard to accept because if they knew what I am they wouldn't even want to share space with me. It's baggage from years of being pushed around. I find it hard to trust people in general. It's not paranoia, I don't think anyone is out to harm me. It's hard to explain but I guess it's like a form of PTSD maybe?

I remember over in the Christianity section how you were thinking the same thing about the church people and I can understand that thought.  For me, when I transition I am interested to see how differently people will interact with me, almost as if it's a science experiment.  Sometimes I think "will women be more scared of me since I'm a man now, especially at night? would people be more willing to "buddy "buddy" with me now that they see a man? will being male make me stick out more than blend in?"

Whatever the results may be for me, positive or negative, I'm still on board.  It's almost a damned if you do, or damned if you don't type of logic for me.  If I stay my biological gender, then I'm lying to them.  If I transition, yeah the though of "if they only knew" would plague me for the rest of my life, but at least I can be true to myself. If I see a cat, I'm not going to throw a stick and say "fetch", because it's a cat.  In the same since the people see me as man because I am a man.    They treat me like a man because I am a man.  Sorry if I made no sense.

People seem a LOT more helpful when they think I pass. Think it's pretty sad that a lot of times women are just ignored in our society and that seems ok to people. OTOH, I believe the term "buddy" is a bit like "guy" or whatever. I have been "buddied" a few times. I believe that guys address other guys differently than women. I also think that women are a bit less likely to be as friendly. But I suppose it is a way of enforcing heteronormative behavior. For lack of a better way to put this.

--Jay

Simon, I think were are each the sum total of out experiences and products of our environment.  That's what makes us unique.  Your path has been radically different from mine - not just in terms of gender identity and birth sex, but in culture, geography, jobs, relationships, etc.

And yet, we have persevered.  We are survivors.  And we are better for it.  You are an example now for others who follow in your footsteps.  Their path will be every bit as unique as yours or mine, but they have the knowledge that Simon "made it."

You should celebrate your ongoing achievements.  I do. 

... and for every one of us who "makes it," the world becomes that much better.

Quote from: Malachite on August 10, 2013, 06:35:48 PM
In the same since the people see me as man because I am a man.    They treat me like a man because I am a man.  Sorry if I made no sense.

I understand what you're getting at. I think what trans people experience in the early stages of transition forms how they feel about cis people. A big part of my problem is probably because my transition was stagnant for so long due to forces outside of my control. It was common place at one point for me to get crapped on by people. Then it stopped. It's almost like traveling to a parallel universe, lol.

For me it's hard to come to terms with the fact that people like me now because of a synthetic drug I inject. Yes, as you said they treat me like a man because I am physically a man now to society. When someone has experienced the bad aspects of people due to transition (I once drove from CO to NC in two days because I was broke and had death threats from supposed "friends" who found out) it sticks with you. Eventually I'm sure I'll come to terms with it but I know it'll be years before I really trust cis people.

Quote from: aleon515 on August 10, 2013, 06:43:03 PM
People seem a LOT more helpful when they think I pass. Think it's pretty sad that a lot of times women are just ignored in our society and that seems ok to people.

Yep, male privilege isn't a myth.

Quote from: spacerace on August 10, 2013, 03:24:17 PM
It is super awkward when I have to show my ID at a restaurant ordering a drink. They do a double take, and not just because of the F. Sometimes I notice people looking at me very obviously from across the room, like it is their business what gender I am.

I get the opposite. If I get mis-gendered as female out in public, nobody does a double take, nobody thinks twice about it. And nobody thinks twice when I pass as male in public either. I think I pass as both female and male. It sucks to be stuck in the in between stage.

I can definitely tell when people think I look ambiguous. And it sucks. People don't treat you very well. I don't really get hostility, just a lot of people who toss me aside like I don't matter. I pass as male for the most part but I do know that if people expect to be adult, they find me ambiguous and sometimes even gender me female. And it does make me angry. Me, in time, I will likely look less ambiguous. What about people who won't or can't? What about cis people who look ambiguous (like butch lesbians?) It's not fair and it isn't right.

I also pass 100% now and I have found it fascinating to see the differences in people's behaviour towards me since I have been able to do so vs. when I was "androgynous" or even "female".

There is definitely an aspect of the "male privilege" that I used to hear so much about at play in society - I have had a promotion to manager in less than one year of being at my job which I think would never have happened if I had been seen as a female.  People approach you, men will speak to me before they speak to my wife about certain things (cars, etc.).  I find it sad, but typical of society.  I am rather cynical towards humanity, so nothing that It does really surprises me. 

I am also saddened by the fact that I've only recently begun to notice that women, walking alone down the footpath at night, will actually sometimes cross the street as to not meet with me as I pass.  They will walk faster if they notice I'm behind them or duck into a store. 

On the flip-side of "male privilege", there is also a burden of expectation to some degree. As a man, I find myself expected to know things about tools, cars, engineering, etc. that I just don't know - and when I don't know, I get looks of surprise from my mates. 

Maybe I was luckier than some - most of my public appearances as a pre-T androgynous individual were here in Australia where there doesn't seem to be the same kind of hostility and ignorance with the public about androgynous and gender-variant people as there is in America.  I was never treated badly or ignored too much - but there certainly is a marked difference between how I am treated now vs. how I was treated then.

I have no real expectations of society as I know what the vast proportion of people are like psychologically.  Having more self-confidence just cements that for me. 

Hah, I have even more problems because I pass (even when forced into clothing designed to show off a female body, apparently!) all of the time, and yet my parents don't accept me so I can't come out to medical and educational officials, the only people who call me "she" nowadays. It really sucks because I just want to be completely stealth like I should be, friends I'm out to have actually begun to forget that they knew me as a girl in the first place.

Quote from: Dominick_81 on August 10, 2013, 07:22:54 PM
I get the opposite. If I get mis-gendered as female out in public, nobody does a double take, nobody thinks twice about it. And nobody thinks twice when I pass as male in public either. I think I pass as both female and male. It sucks to be stuck in the in betweejn stage.

its the same for me, I'm either an almost college aged girl or a twelve year old boy to people, I never seem to get ambiguous reactions, seems like people are certain what they see me as.
which was part of why it took me so long to use the men's room- there wasn't a 'bubble of ambiguity' to protect me in there, if they saw girl they wouldn't think twice or assume I was in the correct bathroom like they might for a more androgynous-looking person.

I don't get treated badly, apparently, when I believe people can't really tell. I think though that people tend to be more polite to older people. One of the very few privileges that older people get in our society, sad to say.

--Jay

Quote from: Si on August 10, 2013, 01:01:13 PM
The last few days I've had to run errands and do some shopping for school, groceries, etc. It has dawned on me how differently I am treated by society now that I pass 100% of the time at 8 months on T. The more I think about it the angrier I get at cis society for their predispositions towards people who appear gender variant.

For example, yesterday I had lunch at a local pizza buffet. I was wearing a Patriots team hat and a girl just walked up to me and started talking about them. A girl who would have seen me and turned her nose up or giggled with her friends about me not even a year ago. Even going shopping is different. Staff at a department store can walk up to me asking if I need anything and when I say, "No thanks, just browsing" they don't get taken aback anymore by my voice.

Does it feel good to be seen as "normal"? Yes, it makes life so much easier. Honestly, I know if I wasn't on T and passing so well I wouldn't be starting college in less than two weeks. I would have been too paranoid about people clocking me and being miserable the whole year when they gossiped behind me back. In a multitude of ways being on T has helped me more than any psychiatric medication ever has.

Then I stop and think about cis society. It makes me feel bitter that while I did this for myself that it took this to make them see me as a worthwhile human being, and not an object to be ridiculed without remorse. I wonder while I do apparently fit in now if I will ever fit in mentally. How much baggage do we continue to carry throughout our lives because of how we were seen/treated pre transition? Will I ever fully trust cis people? Will I ever feel comfortable enough to not feel different from everyone else?

Anyone else ever have these thoughts?

I get your point, I also got alot cis-phobia for just the general sociaty thing even when it got better. I still feel diffrent because my view on genders and sexualety is diffrent than many people, I don't want to be diffrent but neither do I want to force myself into something I do not like, its a hard choice and I dont think theres a solution who is 100% without problems. but before I passed it was abit like people notice that I was diffrent cause I was viewed as a tomboy. People usunally decribe my look as a mix of casual and alternativ, what annoyes me is when I go out all casual and look like the typical boy next door, people talk to me in cisnormative ways expecting im cis and everything, in a way its fine but in other way it also made me kinda annoyed of sociaty ex.

"oh if you had been a girl it would had been more difficult for you" or "well, you live in a country who accept gay people so whats the problem" its like they belive my life is extremly easy when they dont know the trans part.
a few times I also heard people talking bad about transgender while im in the room saying. "oh its a ->-bleeped-<-" or "I saw in tv theres was a guy who got pregnant he been a woman" "no way man!"
-
I think its the problem when you blend in and people start talking to your face, I had the same problem with rasism because im white but my mom is imigrent, (also white btw) and we speak the languarge perfectly. then some years ago there was alot of discrimination agenst imigrents but manly focusing on people with darker skin, so if there where only white people in a room you could hear this "all imigrents should get out of the country" because they didnt knew my mom where a imigrent.

Nice topic Simon.

I feel the same way too, I often go in and out of many different categories, and it's really interesting to see the various reactions.

I am usually either out as male, though I don't always pass, or I am out as female. It's funny how people hold doors open for me, treat me all nice and stuff while I am out as female; or how some people just ignore (or study me) when I am out as male and not passing.

I have pale skin, but I am not 100% white, so it's interesting to see how people who are visibly not-white sometimes just assume that I am another white person and that I don't really get everything they're about, and how it's also interesting to see how sometimes other white people just assume I am just like one of them. There's a difference between how people can treat and relate to me if they know I am not fully white -- at least until they forget.

Another thing I kind of blend in and out of is being viewed as a Muslim sometimes. While I am not Muslim, we're supposed to cover our heads at Gurdwara, so I usually just wear a scarf kind of like a hijab when I go. I usually stop on my way over to get coffee or something so I can break a twenty, and I've had people glare at me, call me a terrorist, accuse me of being in al-Qaeda, and sometimes even have men avoid eye contact with me all together while I am paying for my coffee. Then, lol, when I am out without a scarf on, other (white people only from my experience) sometimes talk to me about how Muslims are taking over the country and how sexist they are.  It's like. . . if only you saw me yesterday we wouldn't be having this conversation. Sometimes it's kind of nice, if I run into actual Muslim ladies, they get really excited and "salaam alaikum" me or like excitedly wave to me from the other side of a room, especially if I am in a place where there's not many of them around. Even though I am not Muslim, I can really understand how they feel about things sometimes, it's like it's nice knowing you're not the only one around. If I am out and see someone who kind of has trans characteristics, I think I feel the same way that they do, though I don't go up to anyone I see as trans since I don't want to out anyone.

Sometimes I feel like I am walking on a tight rope between so many identities. People see me dressed one way and make all sorts of assumptions about my life, my ideology, my identity, and that's how they decide to treat me.

While it is kind of frightening to know how easy it is for people to make assumptions, I think it's kind of a good thing for me to experience. I feel like experiencing both sides to some aspects of life makes me more cautious when I see people to not make assumptions, and to really try to recognize when I am treating someone differently based on how they look.