does that mean because soy estrogen is easy to manipulate into bioindentical estrogen that it would infact result in a positive affect the reason i ask is i drink a crazy amount of flavoured soy milk coz its lovely and better for me. so am i infact getting benificial hormones instead of ones that would infact impare tradional hrt

Quote from: lucy aylett on August 10, 2013, 04:54:44 PM
does that mean because soy estrogen is easy to manipulate into bioindentical estrogen that it would infact result in a positive affect the reason i ask is i drink a crazy amount of flavoured soy milk coz its lovely and better for me. so am i infact getting benificial hormones instead of ones that would infact impare tradional hrt

Your body does not synthesize the soy phytoestrogens the way a lab would.  It digests them.  What you are getting is not 17-besta estradiol in human form.

Proponents will point out:

Phytoestrogens bind to estrogen receptors in the body. In the case of decreased levels of estrogen, such as during menopause, this can relieve symptoms caused by the lack of estrogen. By tricking the body into thinking estrogen is present, phytoestrogens may reduce the frequency and severity of hot flashes and night sweats. Studies utilizing soy foods that contain the phytoestrogen isoflavone found that eating soy can reduce the number of hot flashes by 10 to 20 percent, according to the Linus Pauling Institute. Flaxseeds also contain phytoestrogens and a study reported by the Massachusetts General Hospital Center for Women's Health reveals that ingesting 40 grams of crushed flaxseeds per day for six weeks may reduce hot flashes by 50 percent. Women in menopause also experience an increase in LDL cholesterol levels, the type of cholesterol that increases the risk for heart disease. Eating foods containing phytoestrogens can help keep cholesterol levels down.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/392041-phytoestrogens-menopause/#ixzz2bbdvqbij

Presumably you want to initiate feminization.  If that is the case, phytoestrogens won't help much.

tbh iniatilising feminisation isnt a massive issue though some of this has to do with me having a bit of fat on me i have massive natural breats for a guy i'm a D cup, i have abnormally large hips which gives me a tidy hourglass shape all i was wondering is i have had a good look at my diet and realised most of the foods i eat normally have high levels of phytoestrogens in them is this going to help or hinder me when i go on hrt

So does this mean that bio-identical estrogen made from plants is just as good as estrogen not made from plants? I guess I was under the impression that the former were still in the herb category.

Quote from: Joules on August 10, 2013, 10:57:19 AM
Yes, the phytoestrogens work, but they are only 1/1000 as effective as bioidentical hormones.

That's not entirely true.  Some phytoestrogens are 1/1000th the potency of bioidentical estrogens, but others are much stronger than that.  One phytoestrogen in particular, deoxymiroestrol is two and a half times more potent than estradiol.

It all depends on what plants you're using.

Flax, black cohosh, red clover, etc. probably won't do much, but there are phytoestrogens that can rival and even surpass the effectiveness of traditional pharmaceutical hormones. 

Quote from: Joules on August 10, 2013, 07:47:06 PM
That may be true Oriah, but by having a mixture of potency, you run the risk of clogging your receptors with the low potency molecules.  A chemically processed batch of phytoestrogens has the necessary composition to give consistent results.

not everyone can figure out the right way to do it and get results, but I use nothing but plants for hrt and the results are there.  I swallow less than a tablespoon of powdered herb per day, and have curves and a C-cup.

It CAN work.  It may not be easy to figure out what to take and what dose you need, but it WILL work if done properly

ooh people are getting snappy. anyway people have talked about phytoestrogens. lets talk more about bioidentical hormones made in a lab. is there anything out there thats not perscription which is actually built for supplying estrogen for the purposes of hrt that isn't built for something else

I'm going to say 2 things here, that people frequently and frustratingly get wrong and perpetuate that ignorance to others.

1. Chemistry is not cooking. The chemical structure of a given molecule is what it is, if it is an estradiol molecule, the same structure,  optical rotation, etc, as the one the human body produces, then the body CAN NOT tell the difference. The body can't magically 'see' the history of how the molecule was synthesized, it can't tell if it's natural or not, it simply is what it is.

Some products contain a molecule that is slightly different from what the human body produces, this can matter a lot or virtually not at all.

It won't matter much provided the chemical, while not the same as estradiol, will be metabolized by the body into estradiol (estradiol valerate for example), it might matter a lot more in the case of say for example, ethylestradiol, which has a much sketchier safety history and is significantly more potent by mass.

2. There is no such thing as natural.

I'll say that again, there is NO SUCH THING as natural, by which I mean there is no clear and self evident line that can be drawn between what is natural and what is not, making it a very arbitrary and misleading term. I bring this up because I hear it all the time about "natural is better" regarding HRT and almost everything. 'Natural' is you not going through transition at all, 'natural' would be so harsh to transpeople that I don't feel comfortable describing it. So quit worrying about 'natural' or 'artificial', in the broad sense, it's ridiculous to claim any kind of transition as 'natural', plant estrogens or not. And it's chemically ridiculous to worry about 'where' a chemical came from, all that matters is what it 'is'.

So if bio identical hormones are made from plants how is the regular estradiol B made?

Quote from: Rosa on August 11, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
So if bio identical hormones are made from plants how is the regular estradiol B made?

It's all marketing; plain estradiol is as close as it gets without adding valeric acid or other ways of lengthening the chemical chain so the liver processes it multiple times.

we all know self medication is dangerous and should not be tried but is there anything you can take or add to your diet which will aid hrt and give more promising results

Quote from: Rosa on August 11, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
So if bio identical hormones are made from plants how is the regular estradiol B made?

Bio identical means simply that the molecule is identical to that found in nature.. A bio identical can come from any source - as long is it the same molecule..

I know what not to do: drink milk. Never drink milk. Limit your intake. It does not have "female hormones" in it is highly androgenic. Everytime I drink milk I break out. Bad. It's horrid as I love ice cream but I really feel like there isn't enough info out there that milk is bad for HRT.

I have no idea whether or not plant estrogens work but I am inclined to believe they have some effect as everyone who has taken them has said it did something, though not much. But other people have had results. I think for them to work, you would need to halt T production. But I really know nothing and I think to each their own.

Medical HRT is your best bet. I can tell you it works for a fact.

well all estrogen high foods are all my favorites so while i go through the madness that is the nhs if will continue to eat these foods and see what happens

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 12, 2013, 01:45:58 PM
I know what not to do: drink milk. Never drink milk. Limit your intake. It does not have "female hormones" in it is highly androgenic. Everytime I drink milk I break out. Bad. It's horrid as I love ice cream but I really feel like there isn't enough info out there that milk is bad for HRT.

Can you provide some evidence to support this? As most of the research and studies I'm looking say just the opposite..

Hmmm... So it has been mentioned that plant products like soy are high in phytoestrogens. That I know. But now that I think about it, I'm worried that my current diet may interfere with my Hormone Replacement Therapy. You see... As a "vegetarian / vegan," I eat a lot of soy-based products. My body unfortunately can't really process animal proteins and fats, so I found out that a veggie-based diet was good and didn't bother me. Yet now that I think about... It may cause issues... Sigh... I guess I won't know until it is time for me to start.

Quote from: Joules on August 13, 2013, 02:49:45 PM
Sanceria, As I understand it, just simply eating foods high in phytoestrogens aren't a problem.  Estrogen, and hormones in general, which are eaten are simply digested, they never make it into the bloodstream.

HRT relies on several different application methods, all of which result in a direct transfer of Estrogen into the bloodstream.  Injections and implants are direct obviously, creams and patches for transdermal, sublingual for trans-sinus membrane absorption.

You're wrong.  If swallowed hormones didn't make it to the bloodstream, there would be no such thing as oral contraceptives.

About 10% of a swallowed dose of hormone makes it into the bloodstream after digestion

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on August 13, 2013, 02:05:41 AM
Can you provide some evidence to support this? As most of the research and studies I'm looking say just the opposite..

Why yes I can provide evidence for my hypothesis. Here it is:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2009.00924.x/pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/'

Choice quote:

The evidence assembled here suggests that dairy-sourced hormones, not being subject to any innate feedback inhibition, may be the source of the androgenic and mitogenic progestins that drive acne, prostate and breast cancer. This is the most promising unitary hypothesis available to explain the etiology of diverse diseases that blemish, scar, shorten and take the lives of millions.

It also thought that dairy intake stimulates 5-aR and DHT and androgen recpetors. It is highly androgenic and as such shouldn't be touched with a 10 foot pole by MTF transsexuals. I know from my own experience if I consume too much dairy I break out. I'm sure a little is okay but why chance it?

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 13, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
Why yes I can provide evidence for my hypothesis. Here it is:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0625.2009.00924.x/pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2715202/'

Choice quote:

The evidence assembled here suggests that dairy-sourced hormones, not being subject to any innate feedback inhibition, may be the source of the androgenic and mitogenic progestins that drive acne, prostate and breast cancer. This is the most promising unitary hypothesis available to explain the etiology of diverse diseases that blemish, scar, shorten and take the lives of millions.

It also thought that dairy intake stimulates 5-aR and DHT and androgen recpetors. It is highly androgenic and as such shouldn't be touched with a 10 foot pole by MTF transsexuals. I know from my own experience if I consume too much dairy I break out. I'm sure a little is okay but why chance it?

I'm going to happily keep drinking my cow's milk.. Why? With a T level that it so close to zero as to make no odds, I don't think it's really going to cause me any problems..

Good. I'm glad that it won't be an issue. And yeah, I'm considering either the implant or injection route, or maybe the patch, because I have a hard enough time remembering to take my prescription meds, let alone having to worry about hormones. But hey, a girl's got to do what a girl's got to do. You know... I've been wondering why they can't synthesize an implant that contains all of the hormones and the anti-androgen in one. I mean it makes sense. Also, I know this may sound counterproductive, but isn't the reason why the libido goes downhill is because that is dependent on testosterone even in females? So it would make sense for them to give a very small dosage of that, too. But then again... It is also said that a large portion of the libido is in the brain. Guess it depends on your state of mind. Then again, when you have someone kissing you, it gets anyone's motors revving, lol.