Hello guys and dolls,
I just finished watching the stories of Brandon Teena and Gwen Araujo, and it got me thinking.
Do we have a moral obligation to tell anyone we're sexually or romantically involved with our trans status?
I'm talking about other than the obvious safety issues. If our safety were guaranteed in these situations, would we still have a moral obligation to tell?
Now, Brandon's situation was a bit dicey, because he actually fooled girls into thinking he had a penis via darkness and a strap-on. But what about when Gwen performed oral sex on men - the action did not involve her genitals, so did she have a moral obligation to tell them beforehand that she was physically male?
Did Brandon have a moral obligation to tell that he was engaging in sexual intercourse with them via a strap-on?
Now, obviously pre-op and post-op are in different situations regarding this.
Provided safety were not a concern, do pre-ops have a moral obligation to tell?
Do post-ops have a moral obligation to tell?
I'm not talking serious relationships here, just dating and random sexual encounters.

Your thoughts. Thanks.
Nero

ummmm...YES!
They have the right to know what there getting into before they actually "GET INTO IT!"

Afterall, no matter how you see it...you are dealing with that persons sexaulity and how they perceive themselves from a sexual orientation point of view...To not tell is to fall into and live up to that Jerry Springer Stereotype that a lot of straight\normal people have of us.....

Dating well I usually tell everyone of the back before hand ...No confusion...no mistake....no second tthought whining...
but ill leave that to say....to each his own...I just dont like playing games with anyones emotions or there sense of reality

Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM

Do we have a moral obligation to tell anyone we're sexually or romantically involved with our trans status?
Nero

i don't know about you, but i do.  i'd really hate to "wake up" in a dumpster.

Quote from: Katia on July 05, 2007, 11:13:57 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM

Do we have a moral obligation to tell anyone we're sexually or romantically involved with our trans status?
Nero

i don't know about you, but i do.  i'd really hate to "wake up" in a dumpster.

Agreed.  Personally, I feel an obligation to tell the people I decide to be involved with, less I'd like to risk physical harm.  I'm a very truthful person, and as Chynna pointed out, they pretty much have a right to know "what they're getting into" because, you can't really have much of a relationship with someone without being honest to their face.  Otherwise, how will our image (the transgender community as a whole) with society improve?

I tend to agree with what's been said so far...

For me I need to tell for a number of reasons:

- I can understand that for many people being intimate with a woman who once had a boy's body may be just too difficult a concept to handle (because of their culture, religion or ignorance) and they have every right to their opinion even if it's difficult for me to accept
- Through self-preservation and a very real fear of violence against me if ever the person found out later somehow and then felt betrayed.
- Out of respect for who I am as an individual and for my life history
- Because when I take someone to meet my close friends and family I want everyone to feel they are meeting someone who loves me and not just some convenient image of me.

MVER XXX

I think there is a moral obligation to tell. It's a matter that is essential to intimacy. I also think there is a moral obligation to tell about STD's (and there is a legal obligation to do so in some jurisdictions). One's sexual orientation would also be an important matter for a partner.

Details of sexual history and past partners wouldn't be quite such a strong obligation, I wouldn't think. It's not an essential, although it can be an intimacy builder.

Dennis

There is no moral obligation to tell , if one is post op.


For pre op, there is no moral obligation for me to tell as long as I am not having sexual intercourse with that person.

I don't believe there is a moral duty to tell people about our medical condition, but I think that it is necessary for me to reveal myself to my b/f simply because my trans status made up an important part of who I am and how I see things.

(In terms of STD, yes, there is a moral obligation to tell one's sexual partner)

Quote from: regina on July 06, 2007, 04:19:02 PM
But Nero's question was... is it a moral obligation to tell? To be fair, really fair, there are many things we don't tell our lovers. How often do people not tell others about STDs, other relationships, sexual history, their bisexuality, problems with the law, even children we might have? My question is, why do we place such a heavy value on revealing gender transition so far above those other things? Why do we place such a heavy value on something that would, specifically, be upsetting to a straight male, even to the point of many people dismissing the violence some of them display after finding out (the current case in Palm Beach is now another one of those). There are a lot of societal values put onto this scenario (specifically a straight male with a transwomen).

I don't think we're placing gender transition any higher than the others, they all pretty much have the same value.  My take on this Regina, is if someone in any kind of relationship can't be honest about anything, be it their trans status, STD's, kids from a previous relationship, ect...then there's something very wrong with that relationship IMHO, and it won't last for very long.  Honesty and communication are key in any relationship, and without those two ingredients...well...just look at the almost 60% divorce rate here in the states.

There needs to be more honesty in this world.  It may be upsetting to a straight individual, but if you choose to be honest with your partner about your trans status and he/she flips out or reacts negatively...do you really want to be with that person?

On a personal note, as far as STD's are concerned...I'm going to take myself and any future partner I have to go get tested before any sexual intimacy.  That's not an option, it's a requirement. 

My fiance knows because he knows me from before. But   being post operative and "more" than passable, I wouldn't tell otherwise just as I wouldn't tell that I had chicken pox when I was two.

Quote from: Nero on July 05, 2007, 10:39:42 PM
I'm not talking serious relationships here, just dating and random sexual encounters.

Or even... what if some guy asks a pre-op m2f to... well... dance at a wedding or something?

Sure, it's not SEX, but I can imagine many men not being thrilled to find our they'd "danced with another man" (in their eyes), especially if their peers find out and make fun of them.

~Kate~

They can think whatever they want about me.  Do I see myself as "a man"? Bloody hell no! It's their issue not mine

I appreciate all your responses, though I have the feeling I failed to convey my question properly.
What I want to know is - aside from the danger aspect, in a casual encounter where you may not know the person's name or ever expect to see them again, is there a moral obligation to tell?
This really doesn't apply to me, as no surgeon is ever coming near my genitals so, everyone I have sexual relations with is going to know regardless. However, I am curious as to the right and wrong, moral aspect of this.

I'm ambivalent on this issue.
On the one hand, (aside from the safety aspect), I can see how a person would feel deceived if this information were kept from them (and again, I'm not talking serious relationships here, but random sexual encounters).
On the other hand, if you are post-op or the sex act doesn't involve your genitals - why is it their business?

Again this is a hypothetical question. If safety were not an issue, and this was a random sexual encounter with a person whose name you didn't know, whom you never expected to see again not a serious relationship.
Does one have the moral obligation to tell?
Like in Gwen Araujo's situation - she was at a party and had oral sex with a few guys. Aside from the fact that it wasn't a smart move and she was murdered for it - was she morally wrong to engage in a sexual act with those men without informing them of her birth gender?

Post-op, If its a random sexual encounter and there's no way he can know (I can even give a false name :-), then I wouldn't tell. Its for sex, the guy doesn't care If I'm a troglodyte or gorg, as long at there is a hole somewhere...

I'd still be carefull about doing that in a place where someone else may know and inform this person later (then it would go back to the security angle).

Quote from: Keira on July 06, 2007, 06:20:20 PM

the guy doesn't care If I'm a troglodyte or gorg, as long at there is a hole somewhere...

lol most don't give an iota

Quote from: Nero on July 06, 2007, 05:56:41 PM
Again this is a hypothetical question. If safety were not an issue, and this was a random sexual encounter with a person whose name you didn't know, whom you never expected to see again not a serious relationship.
Does one have the moral obligation to tell?
Like in Gwen Araujo's situation - she was at a party and had oral sex with a few guys. Aside from the fact that it wasn't a smart move and she was murdered for it - was she morally wrong to engage in a sexual act with those men without informing them of her birth gender?

I personally do not engage in "random sexual encounters" for personal moral reasons of my own, so I'm afraid I can't answer this for you Nero.  As for it being a moral obligation, that depends on the kind of individual and their personal morals.  However, in more broad terms, as I have stated, I need to be honest with others about who I am - in a sexual encounter, or otherwise.  I've hid for too long and can't lie about my trans status.

~Fae

For those of you who answered "there is no moral obligation" I would like you to take a second and "flip the script" and put yourself in that awkward situation....
what if you sleep with or had a date with a man who actually turned out was and still is biologically in some way... still a woman? wouldn't that bother you the least bit or at the very least put the idea in your head that "well if they keep this from me what other secretes are they keeping, like there HIV status, hepatitus, etc." ..

wouldn't that make you even the least bit uncomfotable?

Too me... and this is by all means is my lil opinion and im not being judgemental but rather inquizative.....
How can you be so assured of who you are and what direction (or SEX rather) you want to be in life and not feel some sense of morality to be totally honest?

Its "cute" and lovely to be that "real" that no one can tell unless you tell them what you are but at the same time isn't that "realness" truly defined as "BEING REAL"?
or has this girl had one too many cocktail at happy hour?

For myself, and I'm only speaking from my own personal experience, I think that if we intend or feel that any encounter may lead to or is developing into a long term relationship, then we are morally obligated to tell.  I can safely say that I have had three post op encounters where I felt that there was a chance that it could develop into something more that just friendship.  In each case I sent each individual a letter explaining who and what I was and in the third case I did it in person.  Two of the three politely declined to pursue the relationship and the third stood by me and we are still in a relationship.

Personally I feel that any relationship must be based on honesty and respect and if we find it too hard to do that then I don't think we should bother.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on July 06, 2007, 07:01:57 PM
Personally I feel that any relationship must be based on honesty and respect and if we find it too hard to do that then I don't think we should bother.

Exactly how I feel Steph 

Quote from: Chynna on July 06, 2007, 06:55:48 PM
For those of you who answered "there is no moral obligation" I would like you to take a second and "flip the script" and put yourself in that awkward situation....
what if you sleep with or had a date with a man who actually turned out was and still is biologically in some way... still a woman? wouldn't that bother you the least bit or at the very least put the idea in your head that "well if they keep this from me what other secretes are they keeping, like there HIV status, hepatitus, etc." ..

wouldn't that make you even the least bit uncomfotable?

Very good question, Chynna.
My answer to whether that would make me uncomfortable or not, depends on the person and the situation.
If it's just sex, and I was attracted enough to their body to get physical, then I really wouldn't give a rat's behind about their history or chromosomes.
Now, if I end up pursuing a relationship with this person, I want to know.
Or if this turns out to be a good friend I just happen to be {insert everyday term for sex here}, I want to know.
In short, if I have any feelings towards this person (even strictly platonic) and I'm doing them, I want to know.

Quote from: Chynna on July 06, 2007, 06:55:48 PM

Too me... and this is by all means is my lil opinion and im not being judgemental but rather inquizative.....
How can you be so assured of who you are and what direction (or SEX rather) you want to be in life and not feel some sense of morality to be totally honest?

Its "cute" and lovely to be that "real" that no one can tell unless you tell them what you are but at the same time isn't that "realness" truly defined as "BEING REAL"?
or has this girl had one too many cocktail at happy hour?

As for that, I doubt I could even be friends with a person who didn't know my biological status. How could I bond with someone who didn't know one of the most basic things about me and my history?

As far as sex goes, it's a non issue as anyone I'm with sexually is going to know I have a female body. If I did have a surgical penis and it looked real, I don't know. I've never had to think about it, because I'm not letting any knives near that area.

Very good questions, Chynna.

Very simply, yes!  I'm not concerned about casual friendships, but any relationship that could become intimate should be based on the truth.  If things were reversed I would like to know. 

Kristi