Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 11, 2013, 05:05:10 PM
I know this much, I am a W O M A N.

I am not saying a person can't use womyn, but it comes off sounding like the person has personal internal issues. Almost sounds like me, but I accept that I suffer from overt mysandry.

Too many years of linguistics I suppose. I know the history of the word.

Now if you really want to get upset, try reading the history of wife and husband

fine you pick your identity let me pick mine I know the history of my words, I actually use language fairly carefully - and I make no bones abut the fact that I have been heavily abused by men and I in no way want to associate with any cis  straight men at all unless they are the husbands of my friends AND accompanied by them. If you wish to describe me as either a sufferer of PTSD OR a misandrist pick whichever you desire my therapist chooses the former associating it with all the abuse and the hate crimes and says it is self defense.  She says I deserve to do whatever I need to protect myself.

I can't remember my current therapist or psychiatrist asking me these questions.  And I had surprisingly short and simple answers for the questions they actually did ask.  I think a good therapist only wants you to be honest, and help with your problems.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on August 11, 2013, 05:05:10 PM
I know this much, I am a W O M A N.

I am not saying a person can't use womyn, but it comes off sounding like the person has personal internal issues. Almost sounds like me, but I accept that I suffer from overt mysandry.

Too many years of linguistics I suppose. I know the history of the word.

Now if you really want to get upset, try reading the history of wife and husband

For clarification, "womon" and "womyn" are alternate feminist spellings of "woman" and "women," respectively.  The idea is to de-link the words from the root word "man' and to signify female independence.

However, the discriminatory "womyn-born-womyn" philosophy is not an acceptable discussion topic here.

I believe it is a good question to ask ourselves because it makes us think more deeply about who we are.  When considering transitioning and moving forward with such a path, it makes sense for us to have some idea this.  The answer to the question has little to do with what being a woman is like, but what you think being a woman is like and why it's important to you is very relevant. 

Having said that, this is such a hard question to answer.  I can't offer anything other than my individual view that is far from a definition of womanhood as it would fail to meet the criteria.  To me, I associated being a women with all the things I desired to be.  It was the feminine social roles and interactions, the feminine looks and fashion, being the girlfriend and one day wife, and just the fun of getting to be girly.  Besides that, there was always an inherent desire to "join the club" and be a girl as though there wasn't a choice for me (well always meaning since I was 10 or so).  I belonged in the girl camp and nothing I could do could change that.  Despite some of my masculine interests, which I do in fact love, I have always associate more with women in society.  Even while watching a rock band, I loved when there would be a female musician.  It's like yeah one of us infiltrating this boys camp.  It was like a connection I had with other girls even if it didn't make sense for me to make the connection.  So even when I did partake in masculine things, I was just a woman indulging in a masculine hobby.  Being a women is being me.  It's a weird thing to say, but that is what it means to me.  I don't have a desire to be a caricature or stereotype, but I do love many aspects of femininity and they describe the traditional view of womanhood even though it is inaccurate.  I know who I am and what I want out of life.  That's enough for me.  What it means to be trans or a woman?  It differs as everyone's experience is different, but I know how I am and can only tell you my story.

There is no real answer to this question that will be similar and or shared by all.  If you look at gender beyond birth sex, things become much more complicated.  That's the point and the reason gender therapists investigate this.  It's used as a tool to help discover one's identity or learn more about it.  If it is used by the wrong therapist, it can be misused for gatekeeping purposes, but the question itself isn't problematic in itself.

Hi,

Wether im male or female it really makes little difference to my self being intersexed, you are marked as different any way no matter how one looks at it, being that liveing that can open doors or shut them that will depend on who acceptes you as a person no matter how you look. wether your fully male or fully female.

im an intersexed female with masculine features, yet accepted as a normal female by & large by most people  , not all of cause because they have there own issues that i find they are not willing to work through or just plain dont wont to because that means they have to change how they were brought up or thier belives,  what ever ,

So haveing said that i am a member of quite a few women only groups , so i sugest that says something about my self & those women .

Plus i work with many women who have been abused, & i identifie with that, i never had to think about what or who i am iv allways known if  you like it was imprinted in myself from conception   , just because our bodys are not perfect , does not change who we are,

Dont confuse experance with whats inside of you i have a lot of experance in many differeing details say like trades or music,  that did not change myself as a person or even how i was brought up. there was no male or female in my thinking or i could only do this is for boys or this is only for girls, i was never pushed into a role of ether,  what i am is from birth,

To put it bluntly i am my own person. not governed by background detail. so if  the ? comes up are you, (  meaning myself, ) male or female , im both my thinking pattern is very different, as iv said i dont think male or female  in the context of one or the other. i cant I  tryed & failed, though im closer to female ,

any way thought i'd throw the spanner in the works & you can  see  a different aspect of us .

...noeleena...

Quote from: iiii on August 12, 2013, 02:19:12 AM
A male to female strives to become female, if you don't know what you personally see as making somebody female, then how do you know where your goal is? When have you become female?

I strive to be me.  I am not becoming anything different than that.  Appearances will change and I will finally be able to interact in society as myself.  It's not about becoming female.  I'm already there.   It's about changing my appearance and body so I can finally act and be accepted for who I am and to eliminate body dysphoria which plagues me terribly.  So is suppose, my goal is to pass, feel better about my body, live socially as female and be able to live my own individual life as all other girls do. 

It means that shrinks like to hear themselves talk.

"What does it mean to be a man/woman" - It means you're a man/woman, what else do you want?
"What does it mean to be trans" - It means you're unlucky and people mistakenly don't realize the former.

Some things really are pretty simple and don't need a 2 hour thesis to explain.

Quote from: learningtolive on August 12, 2013, 01:42:21 AM
I believe it is a good question to ask ourselves because it makes us think more deeply about who we are.  When considering transitioning and moving forward with such a path, it makes sense for us to have some idea this.  The answer to the question has little to do with what being a woman is like, but what you think being a woman is like and why it's important to you is very relevant. 

Yes. That is what I have thought.

barbie~~

Count me out, the thread has gone past the misinformed into the inaccurate and is now wandering the hysterical.

Everyone has their own right to their opinions of course. But I draw the line when people start making things up to solidify their reality. Especially when they expect me to conform to it.

I was born a human woman, I will die a human woman, and I am ok with being called a human woman. Now if you want to start employing scientifically species correct terminology just keep in mind, you are walking around my backyard.

Medical science can do many things, but, then we are back into the realm of science, and biology is science, it isn't opinion. Etymology is also a precise study.

I am not ashamed of what I am as a species. I like a good salad as much as I like a good steak. I am aware, that naked, I am no match for an African lion. I am aware that allowed to be the tool using animal I am, the entire lion species can be selectively wiped off the planet on a whim.

I dislike intensely the past actions of the male of my species. I hold them collectively responsible for their past so long as their past remains part of the present. They are not currently seeking to change, and for that, I hold them accountable. I understand that centuries of oppression is not easy to walk away from for some women. They often have either centuries of brain washing to over come, or simply no tools to aid them in their defense.

When asked what it really means to be a woman, I would likely be inclined to make snide remarks to the effect of 'how long have you been on this planet?. A person might as well ask me what it feels like to be wet. My first thought, is the question appears to be centered around the questioner denying 'I' know what it is to be one as a means to support their disbelief I really am one. I am not afraid to admit it, I don't have a great deal of respect for the field of psychiatry. It is known as a soft science for a reason. It's too easy to learn, and it is often too subjective a discipline. There isn't enough science involved in psychiatry.

When real science genuinely understands what it is to be male or female, I will be more willing to let quasi scientists to make grand claims. Not before. Real science can barely explain what is going on between my ears at all as it stands.

Quote from: iiii on August 12, 2013, 02:45:20 AM
This questions seems a bit strange... what's the point of anything if you're completely alone, and will always be alone?

That IS the point!

Quote from: iiii on August 12, 2013, 02:45:20 AM
This questions seems a bit strange... what's the point of anything if you're completely alone, and will always be alone?

Actually I probably will be living the rest of my life alone even if I am living in a city - I live in an apartment but I rarely see any real people but my therapist I pretty much stay locked in my apartment all day except when I go to the store to get food. It is pretty much a jail cell. If you cannot spend your life loving you, your life IS pointless.

Quote from: vegie271 on August 12, 2013, 08:15:06 AM


If you cannot spend your life loving you, your life IS pointless.

I think this really accurately explains the point of the question.  Are you doing it so you can love yourself or so that others will love you? 

Not to say that doing something for the latter reason is wrong, but asking the question and really thinking about your answer to it will hopefully help you understand yourself a little more

Y'all get that there isn't a right answer to this question, right?   That means nobody's answer is wrong.  Nobody is looking for an answer that will be universally accepted here, because there isn't one.  People's answers are just their personal views on what it means to be a woman and do not reflect on you or require that you conform to their ideas at all.

Quote from: Northern Jane on August 11, 2013, 05:18:00 PM
"If you were going to live the rest of your life on a deserted island and never see another human being, would you still want to go through the expense and pain of surgery?"

I would still like to go through with it and actually would prefer to live on a deserted island the rest of my life and never see another human being.

I agree that legitimate reflection and introspection can be fostered with such questions.  My therapists also asked additional questions about what I would be willing to give up?, which gets to the heart of losing "male privilege"?
That "therapist as gatekeeper" role can add an unfortunate dimension of us "getting it right" so we can move forward.  For personal reflection I gotta agree that most of us must ask these questions a bunch.

As a child the main role I saw women in was as a nurturing mother and that was my immature view.  As a parent to a girl/woman I know that the process of becoming a woman is profound and I missed that with my acne faced boy puberty.  My own stereotypes still center around a woman as a nurturing person but that nurturing now includes concern for the local and global community.  As an activist in many realms, my experience is that women are in the majority as community activists and organizers.  I am incredibly grateful to the feminists that proceeded us.  A woman in this country can aspire to virtually any role with almost any conceivable presentation.  Women are in the majority as students at our Community College.  While so much emphasis is placed on a woman's looks, we/they can wear anything from a formal pant suit to the tiniest string bikini.  It represents an incredible freedom to me as I now try three or more outfits on in a day.  But of course it's not just about looks.  In an intimate realm we have the unique perspective of being able to know what a testosterone dominated life is like relative to being a woman.  Arousal and intimacy are sure different for this girl!  Our roles at work and in political venues are becoming more egalitarian.  While we still have a long way to go for full equality I spent my career comfortably in a role that was dominated by women.  I am also more mindful of the misogyny and too frequent abuse and must sadly be concerned about safety too.  My feeling of now being more like a woman is simply fabulous while the meaning of being a woman is food for plenty of thought and discussion.  It is humanity and culture after all that provides context or creates that sense of meaning.  With billions of women and millions of trans people I gotta think there are a gazillion ways to look at us, as unique as a snowflake?

Quote from: Jess42 on August 12, 2013, 11:05:51 AM
I would still like to go through with it and actually would prefer to live on a deserted island the rest of my life and never see another human being.

do you know how many times I have said this in the past year and a half I have lived in this slum since I moved in? I hate it here, the noise the horrible people , they are nasty - I would LOVE some quiet and privacy, especially the quiet!.

I don't think the terms woman and trans are mutually exclusive.  I'm a woman, completely and unequivocally.  Because I was born with a male body I am also transgender.

Quote from: learningtolive on August 12, 2013, 02:32:49 AM
I strive to be me.  I am not becoming anything different than that.  Appearances will change and I will finally be able to interact in society as myself.  It's not about becoming female.  I'm already there.   It's about changing my appearance and body so I can finally act and be accepted for who I am and to eliminate body dysphoria which plagues me terribly.  So is suppose, my goal is to pass, feel better about my body, live socially as female and be able to live my own individual life as all other girls do.

Hi Ltl,
First, a late reaction to your question regarding a suitable name. I thought about it when I first saw your post and nothing really came to mind but since you seem to like names that start with "M", I thought Melanie might be nice. Similar sound to Molly but a little softer I think...

Apart from that, it was nice to see you and a couple of other people on this thread finally put some content around what "being a woman" meant to you and  I am still struggling to understand why putting words on this question, other than just saying "I am a woman"  period, seems to be so difficult for so many of the contributors here.

Anyway, assuming you reach your goal of passing as described above and I am sure you will, I think you will discover that you are actually becoming something different to what you are now quite simply because people will react differently to you.

Being recognized by others as a woman or as a man has an immediate impact on the way they react to you and this also has an impact on the way you react to them. That's what social conditioning is all about and we are just as exposed to social conditioning as anyone else.

If you are interested in this subject, a book you might enjoy is "The pyschology of gender" a collection of studies on how gender identity is formed. I particularly liked this theme:  https://internal.psychology.illinois.edu/reprints/index.php?page=request_article&site_id=51&article_id=1620 but, in my mind, the whole book is worth reading.

I am thinking about this a lot right now as I recently starting asking my friends and even my children for testimonial letters to support my civil identity change filing (in France such letters are necessary). Without any prompting from me, almost everyone who has answered so far has spoken about how much I had changed over the last couple of years, not just physically but also psychologically, that a different, gentler person had progressively emerged.

It was heartening to read but it also very much confirmed what I thought when I started out on this journey, that in our interactions with others, being perceived as a woman or a man has a huge impact on how people behave towards us.  Over time this forcilbly impacts our own behaviours, reinforcing some aspects of our personality and no doubt weakening others in a self fulfilling process. 

So, based on my experience, no matter how much you believe you are not "becoming female", I strongly suspect that how you actually live the reality of being female will change more than you can possibly imagine when people really start seeing you as a female.

Enjoy the journey!
Donna

Quote from: Donna Elvira on August 12, 2013, 12:57:47 PMSo, based on my experience, no matter how much you believe you are not "becoming female", I strongly suspect that how you actually live the reality of being female will change more than you can possibly imagine when people really start seeing you as a female.

That is  a profound truth!!!

Being a woman is when your mind tells you that you are a woman.
Being a woman means being strong, so you can overcome the disadvantages society has laid at your feet.
Being a woman means being strong-willed, so you can stand up for yourself against people physically stronger than you and/or who have more social power than you.
Being a woman means sometimes conforming to the social construct of femininity, when it conforms to who you authentically are.
Being a woman means sometimes defying social conventions of femininity, and still not feeling the least bit shaken in your womanhood.
Being a woman means being adaptable, because social expectations in different roles, with different people, are so much more dynamic than they are for men.
Being a woman means being human, and all the complications and dynamics that come with that.
Being a woman is being a woman and being happy with it.