So I wont be able to start hormones until 20 or 21
and I'm really scared that I'm going to get more masculine
I already have big feet and broad shoulders
my face isn't overtly masculine but I don't want it to change
should I be worrying about this : (

I do not see any particularly broad shoulders in Your avi We are the worst critics of ourselves

Well yeah you will be as masculine as you will get by 20 but the other thing is you will still be very young and HRT will, or should, work well. I read some study about transsexuals in the california state prison system and all of the women that started before 21, all lacked masculinization. However, they were not always feminized. There is a difference. I think you should be fine but you can't change it anyway o why worry. Why can't you start at 18?

because i dont have a car or a job yet : d
im starting college soon
my family isnt supporting me so i have to wait to see a therapist

If you can, do everything in your power to get at least antiandrogens before college is over. I've been made to wait by various professionals and not-so-professionals, and it had pretty bad consequences. I didn't have a visible Adam's Apple, but between 18, when I asked and started being made to wait by clueless people, and 20-21, when I finally got my prescription, one had appeared. That's a surgery I need and definitely cannot afford. What, five thousands? If I'd been more insisting with my clueless psychologist and everyone else who followed, and if people had been less clueless to begin with, and if I'd asked earlier... I wouldn't have had to worry about that.

Seriously, it won't have DRAMATIC consequences if you have to wait for 2-3 more years. But it's almost guaranteed that it will have quite a few consequences that you'll regret.

If you really can't get any medical treatment, get into spearmint tea, and drink a lot of it. And eat the leaves. (It's actually pretty tasty.) It's a natural antiandrogen. Its effectiveness is nowhere close to prescribed, specialized medication, of course, but it does help fight testosterone back until you can get proper medication. It's been used in natural medicinal arts to treat hirsutism.

Or if you're a bit more daring, you can start calling around, looking for a doctor willing to perform a orchiectomy on you. I don't know the details, but apparently it's surprisingly cheap, and it's the one most effective method in ensuring that things don't get any worse.

-Emily-: I don't mean to be a party crasher, but a remote friend of mine has been saying the same, looking at my pictures. She was like, you have the tiniest shoulders in the world, I don't even see what you're worried about. Well then I went shopping for a coat. And while I fit fine in tops in M, S and sometimes even XS, because they're made of elastic material, most of what I've tried on so far in coats hasn't worked. My shoulders are way too broad and it makes my arms stuck and unable to move properly. Which proves that my shoulders are indeed way above average.

Basically it's like those big nose dog pictures:



Because of how the picture is taken, the perception of the shoulders' width is thrown off, and they look much thinner in the picture.

I'm not saying it has to be the case, but there's a relatively strong possibility it is. And I'm not trying to bash on Ravenna, saying "you have awful shoulders" or anything. Just, as much as pessimism can be bad, exaggerated optimism can hurt later. "I should have worried about this more". I've said this a lot, when before I consoled myself thinking XYZ people said it wasn't so bad, and thus delayed action.

Well shoulder width is prolly determined by 16 if not earlier. But yeah you might fit in a woman's small top but jackets are constructed of a tighter, more constricting material. How many inches are your shoulders? I have tiny shoulders but I was super self-conscious about it in male mode because along with my height it just makes me look so, um, tiny. People always think I'm 5'4 because of it and I am like 5'6 thank you very much lol

But yeah the OP should try to get on an AA asap. Will she masculinize more? Prolly not. But why take that chance? I haven't grown since 16-17. Not one inch. Nothing. Nada. The thing that changed from 18 to 21 was facial hair and muscles. But the muscles were from working out. I wish I had taken HRT at 18 but it wasn't as easy in 2002 as it is now. But it also wasn't like the Internet didn't exist and I was on my own. I could have done something. Plenty of people did. All I did was sit there and dream and hope and wish. Not act.

But you'll be fine OP. But maybe you can get a job and change things. I know getting a job is tougher now as a teen then it was in the early 2000s but there are still options. Do anything. If you want something, you gotta take it. Having a job makes you feel better and getting paid is one of the better things about  adult life.

I know how this feels. As the years have gone by, my arm hair is thicker, as is my facial hair. Fortunately I'm still slim.

Uhm, this varies vastly from person to person. I know guys who, at the end of high school (17), were still relatively thin and hairless and such. Then I saw a few of them again 3-4 years later. They didn't recognize me, but I did. Two of those, I know for a fact that they do not work out; they're pure geeks whose main exercise is their game controller. One of them has gained quite a lot of height. (We used to be about equal, at 165 cm, and now he's at the very least 170.) One suddenly transformed into his older, bigger and hairier, brother. Etc.

I also know a friend (well, used to be a friend) whose father was about my height until about 20-21 and then he had a growth outburst and reached 6 feet within a couple of years.

And well, it's a fact for me that puberty isn't completely over until ~25, and that even after that, men keep getting more manly, slowly but steadily, until they reach andropause. Of course, there are extremes on both sides, and for some the additional masculinization might be minimal if at all noticeable. But as you said, taking that chance isn't something I'd recommend.

As for me... I forgot the number from when my mother measured, and you know how shoulders are nearly impossible to measure by oneself... The value that comes to mind is 45 cm, but it could be slightly, or largely, off. Though I do remember that for my height (165 cm / 5' 5") I'm even above the men's average. Although I have one thing to be thankful for, when it comes to shoulders at least (for once it's useful): my body is made rather round and thick. If I were thin and had the same shoulder width, then for sure they would look much worse than they currently do.

What starting young does is halt masculinization. It does not aid feminization. I really should't speak about masculinzation because I never virilized greatly. No brow bossing, no adam's apple, sparse facial hair, small, androgynous, blah, blah, blah. I mean I am 30 and started passing at 73 days so starting a little older didn't hurt my ability to pass. That being said I could have passed out the door at 18. In fact, everyone thought I was a girl at 18. But I am having great development and I would bet that many people who start at 18 don't have breast growth like mine. I'm  a C cup and I haven't even been on a high dose.

I know it is popular to say puberty continues to 25 but I'd like to see one, just one, medical journal that says this. Every medical text I have read says puberty is complete by 18. Maybe 21. Late bloomers and all. Gaining weight or hair isn't the same as puberty. It is just change. Maybe there are outliers.

Of course starting early is better. Unless of course you're not trans or GID isn't bad then it is a horrible choice because you will give yourself GID. I just think there is a lot of pressure with the under 25 crowd about transtioning. Everyone in it thinks that after 25 your life is over. It's not a good outlook to have. Plus, medically, there is zero evidence of masculinzation after 21.

But yeah A you do slowly masculinze your whole life. But when talking bone structure, it is over at 18. Maybe 21. Do you get more masculine. Yes. But not at the bones where it matters. I might have a different definition of masculinzation then you.

Uhm, I think I read somewhere that it's an established fact that all along their life, men's facial features masculinize further and further, for example. That's because the kind of bones there is in the face, different from most of the skeleton, don't ever quite have a "locking" process that fixes them in their adult stage. Something like that.

Also, puberty... it vastly depends on what definition of puberty one uses. Some define it as only the "big burst". Once you're sexually mature and (normally) look more like a man/woman than a boy/girl (Tanner stages in less vague terms), then puberty is over.

Others go the simple route and say that once you're legally an adult (anywhere between 18 and 21 depending on the country), then puberty is over. It does have the advantage of being roughly true and simple.

You can also say that puberty ends once all evidence of growth is over and the bones that ever do have been "locked" in their adult stage. The process would in average be completed around 25 years old. Alternatively, it can be defined as when the body stops building itself and starts decaying, which I would guess happens at the same time as the bones "locking". That, too, happens in average at 25 years old, or so I think.

I guess, in that case, according to this, an especially late person could technically remain in puberty until 30, while with the above definitions, it could end as early as 15-16 or so, for someone rather early. That's a pretty massive difference.

And I'm pretty sure there are tons of other definitions of puberty, outside and in between those bounds. Between primary school, high school and Internet readings, there have been many different definitions of puberty. So yeah. Not only do people's experiences vary, but it looks like the theory varies too, to make things more complicated.

As for me, uhm, I think my physical adulthood is starting to come along about now. Since starting hormones at 20-21 years old, I'm absolutely sure that my small dose of estrogens has increased the width of my hip bones a little, so it's certain at the very least that my bones weren't completely done settling themselves in. But seeing as there's no sign that I'm growing and I don't think my hips have grown much more if at all since last winter, I think at 22 years old, my "puberty" is on its last miles.

Ravenna you are gorgeous!  We are fond of saying "your mileage will vary" and we certainly have individual experiences with puberty and becoming masculine.  I hated puberty and continued to masculinize even in my 30's with thicker coarser body hair and more.  I am not fond of my shoulders and butt proportions now and like many here regret not starting transition sooner.
Yes there is real concern for you and your age and no one wants you to be anxious or frustrated either.  Groups like TransActive provide support for young people........

oh gosh thank you ^^
gave me my first smile of the day heheh ;p

Quote from: A on August 12, 2013, 03:33:43 PM
Uhm, I think I read somewhere that it's an established fact that all along their life, men's facial features masculinize further and further, for example. That's because the kind of bones there is in the face, different from most of the skeleton, don't ever quite have a "locking" process that fixes them in their adult stage. Something like that.

Your facial featues can change for sure but most of it is reversible. For instance, I looked pretty manly five years ago. But before I started HRT, I hard reversed those changes. A lot of it is how much you weigh and what you eat. I mean my skin is different in that I have a couple of pock marks that I need lasered away, but this was the result of bad choice like drinking a lot. For the most part, I don't look much different than at 18 or 21. I don't think anyone does. It's mainly the result of aging. The natural aging process and puberty are different things. You will def have more fcial hair at 30 than 20 but again, laser.

I consider puberty the growing of bones. I don't think you get brow bossing later in life. You get that early on and it's genetics. Bossing, hand size, shoulder size, feet size, overall fram size, these are all done by 18 or 21. You might grow an inch or two, MAYBE, but nothing major at all. I mean all you have to do is visit a college and all the guys there look pretty darn masculine to me. At age 21, you are about as masculine as you are going to get without taking steroids or something else.

The reason the whole 25 thing come up is because that is when your body sops producing HGH. But at that point is so low and it is not working in synergy with other pubertal hormones that it is not the same as puberty. Consider short men. If there was a way to grow taller or masculinze further after 21, you would know it because there are a lot of short guys. When I think of all the guys I know, almost all of them feature wise look the same. Muscles and facial fat might have changed but that can be reversed.

That being said I agree 100 percent that starting younger is in fact better. But I just think when age becomes a facotr in transitioning we leave a lot of people behind. I'm concerned about my 30 year old sisters reading thsi who might not do it because of it. I want them to know it can be done and it does work. Life isn't over at 30. Is it?

Ravenna, please get on hormones ASAP. I cannot stress this enough. If you live in the western world there is almost (almost!) no excuse to not be able to get your necessary medications. Especially now in the days of the internet. If there is one thing we all regret I am sure it is not transitioning sooner. Heck, I transitioned at 19 and even I am kept up at night thinking things like "why didn't I tell my parents how I felt when I was four" "Why didn't I stand up to the bullies" etc etc but that is something for another thread.

Joanna, I don't want to sound mean here but you really do masculanize as you age. Your opinion is undoubtedly biased since you started at a later age. Even then, the best time to start is not 4, 14, 24, but rather, NOW.

For myself, I will say I started puberty sometime in the second half of 8th grade. I guess I was 14? Going on 14? The most masculanization came between the ages of 15 and 16. My mediteranean origins were both helpful in some instances (relatively small compared to those German origin kids) but quite brutal in others (Oh lord the body/facial hair!).

Think of puberty as a curve of sorts on a graph. Very little action (for cis males) at 12 (but still some, maybe your getting hair on your upper lip at this age. Maybe). Then the graph "skyrockets" at around 15, 16. It will tamper off significantly by your late teens, and is basically "zero" at around 24-25.

By the way, everyone, and I mean EVERYONE changes throughout their lives. The only part of your body that is the same from birth to death are the neurons in your brain, nervous system. Everything died, split, grew, etc. At one point, we even start shrinking. The biggest benefit from starting young, in my humble opinion, is the invaluable happiness and experiences gained by living as your true self. What I wouldn't give for a time machine.

Quote from: missy1992 on August 12, 2013, 07:15:52 PM
Even then, the best time to start is not 4, 14, 24, but rather, NOW...

The biggest benefit from starting young, in my humble opinion, is the invaluable happiness and experiences gained by living as your true self. What I wouldn't give for a time machine.

I literally could not agree with you more. You are right. This is the reason to start younger. And yes I am obviously biased but everyone is biased on every topic. The reason this gets to me so much is because I am not exactly old (I'm 10 years older than you, it's hardly old) but I feel like there may be some people out there my age and they hear this stuff and put off transtioning and stay depressed and riddled with dysphoria. You can transtion at 30 and have fabulous results. I passed at 73 days, have a BF, and C cup boobs. Plus guys hit one me and I literally need a stick to beat them off (ooh that sounded dirty). I've been on HRT five months. That's nothing. Can every 20 year old say they have those results and that fast? That's the thing: it has less to do with age and almost everything to do with genetics.

Do you masculinize as you age? I don't know. Define masculinzation. I naturally have androgynous features so maybe I am not the best person to pontificate on this subject. But I do think you should start younger and the younger the better. I just don't think it is cool at all when people act as if there is some magic wall where you pass and after that, you get poor results. It's not true and it's a dangerous myth. Heck, I bet there are a slew of 20 year olds who transtioned and thought because they were young that they would get fab results and fast and it didn't happen. Look at that MTV drama True Life. I just hate it when people transtion and then detransition and go public with it. I don't care when someone detransitions but when you go public it make all of us look bad. And I wouldplace money on most of the people who do detransition are young because they jumped into it because they heard this giant tivking clock and they weren't ready.

But that's the last I will say on the subject. I feel like I am arguing and I hate arguing. But yes I do agree: the younger the better. Just don't put an age limit on transtioning.

Oh, I didn't intend to say that. Even, heck, there are some trans women who transitioned after their fourties, fifties even, and pass surprisingly well. There is so much variation when it comes to that. There are some for whom it might, from a very pessimistic perspective, be "over" by the time they reach the age of 30, but even then. What's over is maybe, what, a cheaper transition? And even then. I think that even including the oldest ones, there's less than 10 % of trans women who will not be able to pass convincingly (being "pretty" or "cute" aside) without surgery, if they do things right.

All that considered, though, I'm a bit of a perfectionist. I'm not fatalist ("I now have XYZ feature; I'm done for; I can't ever pass") but I do consider it to be relatively a catastrophe to have, say, my "newly found friend", my Adam's Apple. But I try to stay realistic. After my studies, if I get a decent job, there's a good chance I'll be able to raise the required money to get it off within a year. Not to mention that I seem to mostly pass even with it.

Anyway, I'll say like Joanna: I don't like to argue and I sort of feel like I'm doing that. Not to mention what I say has little usefulness and I'm basically rambling, mostly.

To add a bit of positiveness, Ravenna, I also wish I had ever looked like you at some point in my life.

Also: Joanna... A year and a half of low dose HRT, and soon a month on a decent dose... And still I believe I could take a picture of my naked torso without anyone finding it looks girly, unless I tell them to analyze the nipples and tissue with a magnifier. So I would like to throw a little bit of envy at you, and season it with some friendly hate.

(In theory that's supposed to at least vaguely make you smile.)

I would just get on AA's.
...don't get an orchi, you might regret it.

and I've had the same build since 16, I started AA's and E at 17.

I'm gonna be 20 next year, which is blah.

I feel the same way. I just turned 25 and I'm pretty happy with the bone structure right now. I don't have any strong masculine features but I've always been a late bloomer and I'm afraid if I don't start hrt soon, I'll have another growth spurt. I know it's rare for bones to grow after 25 but like I said, my body has always been late when it came to growing.

Most public colleges and universities have LGBTQ Diversity Centers, so you can get on the internet now for their information.  They're great support for students and have reference materials related to the local community.  Their staff is there to help students in your position and you shouldn't have to wait to start classes to email them.  I know a staff member in the Center at my old college, and she said their planning for the fall events and getting ready to greet the students that they expect to drop in.  They're also waiting to hear from students now, so give it a try.

Most public colleges use part of your tuition for student health care and health related assistance, and who knows you might qualify for a therapist.  It's just a thought, and once again the Diversity Center should be able to give you some sort of information about the college health coverage.

You'll do fine, and unless there's some big obstacle you shouldn't need to wait until you're 20 or 21. 

Good luck with school and life's journey.

K