Quote from: vegie271 on August 12, 2013, 11:54:16 AM


do you know how many times I have said this in the past year and a half I have lived in this slum since I moved in? I hate it here, the noise the horrible people , they are nasty - I would LOVE some quiet and privacy, especially the quiet!.

I could probably guess it's about the same amount of times that I do. My dream home is anything as long as it sits right in the middle of about ten thousand acres of nothing but wilderness. I like people in general but sometimes dealing with them face to face constantly and or living right on top of one another kills me.

As for the original question and what it means to be a woman, giving up male privilege and or being seen as a female in society is not what is important to me. Its way deeper than that. It's something that I've longed for since first memories and nothing really concreted in female streotypes.

On a lighter side Tessa, what is male privilege? Not worrying about body hair? Nasty. Five minute showers? Yuck. Better Jobs? Never experienced that one. Better pay in the work force? Never experienced that one either. Not having to worry about your hair? Kinda' boring to me. Wearing loose comfortable clothing? Again, boring plus I find male clothing uncomfortable especially jeans. I don't guess I have ever experienced male privilege in my life so I sure wouldn't and don't miss it.

Male privilege is being part of the good ole boys club and receiving things that you would not have received if you were female, i.e. jobs, raises, and just overall treatment. People act like you are helpless when you are perceived as female. Male privilege is "being one of the guys." I have never received it because as a guy I am small, weak and effeminate and I have never been able to hide it and I have tried. I come off as too enthusiastic, too talkative and demonstrative, too girly. My ex-GF once called me a girly girl. I said you mean girly guy. She said no I mean girly girl. I once lost to a girl at arm wrestling. She stood up and said I still have never lost to a girl. She didn't say Wow I beat a guy. And that in a nuthsell is why I don't fit in with men. They don't like me. Well, now they do lol but they just wanna get in my pants.

As for the original question and what it means to be a woman, giving up male privilege and or being seen as a female in society is not what is important to me. Its way deeper than that. It's something that I've longed for since first memories and nothing really concreted in female streotypes.

On a lighter side Tessa, what is male privilege? Not worrying about body hair? Nasty. Five minute showers? Yuck. Better Jobs? Never experienced that one. Better pay in the work force? Never experienced that one either. Not having to worry about your hair? Kinda' boring to me. Wearing loose comfortable clothing? Again, boring plus I find male clothing uncomfortable especially jeans. I don't guess I have ever experienced male privilege in my life so I sure wouldn't and don't miss it.
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Ha ha ha, yes Jess, I couldn't find anything about the so called male privilege I would not give up.  Happy to let others define what they mean by that.  There are clear prejudices and the well documented pay disparity seriously hurts single women and children.  I am aware of subtle differences in behavior now that I'm out and in transition.   Men now will not try and engage me about manly things like cars while women talk more comfortably about fashion and style.  Ahh the never ending stereotypes.  The sense of being looked past or disrespected in the political realm because I am different does require me to be aware and thoughtful about how I respond.  The night I came out to some close friends at a card game two of them responded with, "Ok, get in the kitchen and start helping."  They were joking and having fun but again we have lots of simply stupid stereotypes to over come about what it means to be a man or woman.

I think you are a woman because your mind says so and because being male is untenable for you.  I don't think the lack of male privilege makes anybody a woman, but it is something that women experience pretty universally, so it really does shape what the experience of being a woman is for most.

Male privilege has more to do with control, wages, and keeping women in their place, things like that, than the dumb things men do and like to do, which I agree I want nothing to do with.

Well, in all honesty, the hormones help a lot. I've always felt like I should have born a girl and something went terribly wrong but I could never just say to myself "I'm a woman." It's even hard now. I look at myself in the mirror and I see a man. It's really hard to look at myself and to seriously say "I'm a woman." It is getting easier and I now look when someone says "miss" or whatever and don't look at "sir" but there is more to it then that. When I'm with my BF it is a lot easier for some reason. I see myself as a woman with him but when I'm alone it's not as easy.

But like I said the hormones help a lot and with being perceived as female by everyone I am hoping it gets easier. I do feel female but without ever having the subjective experience I can't judge it's authenticity. But yeah being a man was untenable. Unbearable. Unfathomable and a bunch of other Uns.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 12, 2013, 03:04:39 PM
Male privilege is being part of the good ole boys club and receiving things that you would not have received if you were female, i.e. jobs, raises, and just overall treatment. People act like you are helpless when you are perceived as female. Male privilege is "being one of the guys." I have never received it because as a guy I am small, weak and effeminate and I have never been able to hide it and I have tried. I come off as too enthusiastic, too talkative and demonstrative, too girly. My ex-GF once called me a girly girl. I said you mean girly guy. She said no I mean girly girl. I once lost to a girl at arm wrestling. She stood up and said I still have never lost to a girl. She didn't say Wow I beat a guy. And that in a nuthsell is why I don't fit in with men. They don't like me. Well, now they do lol but they just wanna get in my pants.

OK. I guess I just never been on the same level as the Good Ol' Boys. I would rather be seen as weak, that way I have to do less work especially the dirty kind. I never really fit the male stereotype either cause I really didn't and still don't care about what someone killed when they went hunting, who won the ball game over the weekend and all the other stuff males talk about or the activities they do. I do like cars though, classy expensive cars, but hate working on them.

Quote from: Tessa James on August 12, 2013, 03:14:30 PM
Ha ha ha, yes Jess, I couldn't find anything about the so called male privilege I would not give up.  Happy to let others define what they mean by that.  There are clear prejudices and the well documented pay disparity seriously hurts single women and children.  I am aware of subtle differences in behavior now that I'm out and in transition.   Men now will not try and engage me about manly things like cars while women talk more comfortably about fashion and style.  Ahh the never ending stereotypes.  The sense of being looked past or disrespected in the political realm because I am different does require me to be aware and thoughtful about how I respond.  The night I came out to some close friends at a card game two of them responded with, "Ok, get in the kitchen and start helping."  They were joking and having fun but again we have lots of simply stupid stereotypes to over come about what it means to be a man or woman.

I would much rather be in the Kitchen than playing cards 'cause the way my luck is' I'm far better off as far as I can get away from anything having to do with money and cards. I'd end up having to walk home wearing one of those barrels with shoulder straps at the end of the night.

Quote from: Jess42 on August 12, 2013, 03:42:53 PM
OK. I guess I just never been on the same level as the Good Ol' Boys. I would rather be seen as weak, that way I have to do less work especially the dirty kind. I never really fit the male stereotype either cause I really didn't and still don't care about what someone killed when they went hunting, who won the ball game over the weekend and all the other stuff males talk about or the activities they do. I do like cars though, classy expensive cars, but hate working on them.

I would much rather be in the Kitchen than playing cards 'cause the way my luck is' I'm far better off as far as I can get away from anything having to do with money and cards. I'd end up having to walk home wearing one of those barrels with shoulder straps at the end of the night.

But sometimes being a woman does mean caring about who won the game, if you're into that sort of thing.  A lot of times being a woman doesn't mean being in the kitchen at all.  I have many female friends that can't cook to save their life.  Gender stereotypes really don't get at what being a woman is, for me anyway.

Quote from: Jen on August 12, 2013, 03:55:48 PM
But sometimes being a woman does mean caring about who won the game, if you're into that sort of thing.  A lot of times being a woman doesn't mean being in the kitchen at all.  I have many female friends that can't cook to save their life.  Gender stereotypes really don't get at what being a woman is, for me anyway.

That's just me though, I love to cook and hate sports. You're right, there are women that are concerned with the games, hunting and so on. Some are even my family members and I used to catch crap from 'em especially during hunting season. But they never complained when I was the one cooking what they killed.

Other then makeup, most of the stereotypes of women are off base. Most women, like 90 percent, use makeup. Maybe just a light powder foundation and some lip gloss, but that's still makeup. My best friend in college was the only woman I ever knew who wore didn't wear makeup, but she was also the most beautiful girl in the school. Why she chose to associate with little ol' me I'll never know lol we had so much fun and used to pass notes to each other in class. Gawd I miss her.

But things like sports or cooking or even fashion is not universal. I see plenty of women that have absolutely no idea how to dress. Girls grow up playing sports these days so that is off base too. Other stereotypes like being emotional don't carry much weight either. I know plenty of unemotional women.

I know for myself I love makeup and fashion but I also watch some sports like basketball and baseball. In fact, playing with makeup while watching the Phillies seems like a fun time!

Quote from: Joanna Dark on August 12, 2013, 04:34:03 PM
Other then makeup, most of the stereotypes of women are off base. Most women, like 90 percent, use makeup. Maybe just a light powder foundation and some lip gloss, but that's still makeup. My best friend in college was the only woman I ever knew who wore didn't wear makeup, but she was also the most beautiful girl in the school. Why she chose to associate with little ol' me I'll never know lol we had so much fun and used to pass notes to each other in class. Gawd I miss her.

But things like sports or cooking or even fashion is not universal. I see plenty of women that have absolutely no idea how to dress. Girls grow up playing sports these days so that is off base too. Other stereotypes like being emotional don't carry much weight either. I know plenty of unemotional women.

I know for myself I love makeup and fashion but I also watch some sports like basketball and baseball. In fact, playing with makeup while watching the Phillies seems like a fun time!

This may depend on your location and friends - even in my theatrical friends only about 50% wear it during their theater presence or when going out or work @ home or relaxing on the weekend not at all even powder or lip gloss (maybe chapstick) and here I am talking cis friends (not lesbian even I do have some straight and Bi))

and out of my other crowd in the lesbian group don't get me started on makeup - practically NONE of them wear makeup we are talking 3% they think I am crazy for just wearing lipstick and mascara  (now remember I am in western USA)

For me it is just a fundamental sense of identity, a fundamental feeling of who I am, and knowing it before being fully socialised into gender roles and knowing the significance of them. Nothing to do with clothes, hobbies, interests etc, although these can often be a reflection of the fundamental identity, but are not the identity itself.

Kia Ora,

So for me 'personally'

What it really means to be a woman ? Normal

What it really means to be trans? Not normal, in the sense one sits outside society's gender box, labelled 'the norm'... When going through the 'transitional' stage (ie identifying as one medical condition=trans) can to a certain extent challenge mainstream society's concept of gender which in turn could (quite often does) have a major impact on a 'trans' person's physical and mental well being...

However this is just how "I" personally see it and as the saying goes................

"Different Strokes For Different Folks !"

Metta Zenda  

Quote from: vegie271 on August 12, 2013, 04:48:45 PM


This may depend on your location and friends - even in my theatrical friends only about 50% wear it during their theater presence or when going out or work @ home or relaxing on the weekend not at all even powder or lip gloss (maybe chapstick) and here I am talking cis friends (not lesbian even I do have some straight and Bi))

and out of my other crowd in the lesbian group don't get me started on makeup - practically NONE of them wear makeup we are talking 3% they think I am crazy for just wearing lipstick and mascara  (now remember I am in western USA)

I'm not talking full on makeup I mean just some. And there is no way it is three percent of women wear makeup. (That's just the lesbian community and butch lesbian at that. I know lesbians and they wear makeup.) The stock market doesn't lie. Okay well it does but ya know what I mean. Here was a poll in the UK about makeup habits. Seventy percent of women won't go to work without it. Ninety one percent would cancel a first date rather then go bare faced. I don't think there is anything wrong with it and why wouldn't you want to look your best? All the women I know who don't wear it are naturally pretty. Just look around. Women wear makeup.

I don't why but it always seems like the trans community dislikes makeup. I just think wearing makeup is fun and natural. Women have been doing it for thousands of years. I read history. It's a pretty constant thing. I just think makeup gets put down a lot especially in the trans community but in general too by society at large and just because a woman wants to look her best doesn't make he fake like some men think. That's what men think, I think.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/20/women-makeup-free-stressful-first-date-job-interview_n_1366541.html

On my first day of therapy the 1st 2 questions were 1) why am I hear and 2) what does it feel like to be a woman. Ironic, when I came out each time I was asked what it felt like, either trans or a woman. I told 3 people what it is like to be trans, the narrative. I answered #2 what does it feel like to be a woman,  I do not know what it feels like to be a woman. I feel female. I was raised male and after age 6 I was not allowed to play with my girl friends so my socialization as a female ended and I never grew up to be a woman.

To me, asking what it really means to be a woman is like asking a one legged man what it really means to be a two legged person. He is looking for help to fix his body, he's not looking for philosophy meetup groups...

Could you describe the red color in words? If you don't... how can you be sure?


Sometime ago I realized that I'm not a woman, trans, man, intersex... I'm just me. I prefer my body being feminine, I identify better with female gender. I don't care about what constitutes a woman or a man, to me they're the same, human beings.

To me, to be trans is to be a woman that other people think of as trans.

Why do the words 'trans' and 'woman' have to be considered as separate ideas? Aren't they part of the same thing.

All women - all people - can be defined in a bundle of different ways. My wife is a woman. She's also white, middle-class, heterosexual and British, all of which are ways of defining her, and which are categories into which she could be put. And all of those adjectives tell you something about her and the way she has been socialised, the cultural influences that have helped shape her and the way she thinks of herself. They don't tell you anything about her character, or her strengths and weaknesses. But they are part, at least of who she is.

So ... if/when (please God) I transition, I will be a woman, who is also transsexual, middle-class, white, heterosexual and British. pretty much exactly the same as my wife, in fact, except for the addition of the 't-word'. And that would be about right, because my wife and I have many of the same tastes, life experiences, cultural influences, etc ... but I'd be trans, and she wouldn't be - and that would make us different ... but not THAT different.

My point is, all of us are multi-faceted. Gender is hugely important to us - all the more so because we're trans and it's so much more of an issue than it is for most other people. But it's not the only thing that defines us, not matter what sex we happen to be at the time.

Quote from: Carlita on August 14, 2013, 08:22:56 AM
Why do the words 'trans' and 'woman' have to be considered as separate ideas? Aren't they part of the same thing.

All women - all people - can be defined in a bundle of different ways. My wife is a woman. She's also white, middle-class, heterosexual and British, all of which are ways of defining her, and which are categories into which she could be put. And all of those adjectives tell you something about her and the way she has been socialised, the cultural influences that have helped shape her and the way she thinks of herself. They don't tell you anything about her character, or her strengths and weaknesses. But they are part, at least of who she is.

So ... if/when (please God) I transition, I will be a woman, who is also transsexual, middle-class, white, heterosexual and British. pretty much exactly the same as my wife, in fact, except for the addition of the 't-word'. And that would be about right, because my wife and I have many of the same tastes, life experiences, cultural influences, etc ... but I'd be trans, and she wouldn't be - and that would make us different ... but not THAT different.

My point is, all of us are multi-faceted. Gender is hugely important to us - all the more so because we're trans and it's so much more of an issue than it is for most other people. But it's not the only thing that defines us, not matter what sex we happen to be at the time.

I hear you, but to most people out there being trans and being a woman are two entirely different things.

 since I am not a women I don't know what is like to be one. If I had dominate female DNA I would be a woman. Humans get 1/2 their DNA from their father and 1/2 from their mother. This is where the mental conflict originates in transsexuals and transpeople . A fight for dominance.
Trans means as mtf  a person was born  with male DNA and a male brain. Not a female brain !
SRS main goal is for those people for what ever reason want to look like the opposite sex. It is not meant to cure anything. SRS can cause problems post op like depression. suicidal behavior and the dreaded Regret. , something the promoters and wpath soc and gender therapists say nothing about.
Wpath says Nothing about post op except to keep in touch w/ your shrink. and says nothing about DNA.

I want to thank wpath, my gender therapists, the promoters of SRS for  The Post Op Regret I have. ( (I followed the soc and other stuff. )Thank You. Genital surgery on perfectly healthy males . quite a concept.

IMO those questions are broad.

Take "What does it mean to be a woman"

Every woman I've know is different, they think different, they like different things and they act different. You might as well ask what does it mean to be human.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer in that. -shrug-